Kurfürst Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) Maybe in your world it means that, but what I am actually saying is that if the sim in question is making a low level full aerobatic routine in a medium bomber so easy that an internet pilot can do it any time they like yet real world test pilots wouldn't attempt it because the odds are almost certain death then the FM is wrong. Low probability of success and the lack of any chance of success are not the same things. And how many real world pilots would like to risk a manouver that works perfectly well, say 8 out of 10 times..? Edited October 30, 2014 by Kurfürst http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.
bongodriver Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Low probability of success and the lack of any chance of success are not the same things. A statement of the obvious, nobody made any claim to the contrary. And how many real world pilots would like to risk a manouver that works perfectly well, say 8 out of 10 times..? I'm not aware of any manouvers that work on an 8 out of 10 basis, they either work or they don't, the success of which is determined by the execution, no pilot should attempt it unless confident of complete success.
ED Team NineLine Posted October 30, 2014 ED Team Posted October 30, 2014 I'm not aware of any manouvers that work on an 8 out of 10 basis, they either work or they don't, the success of which is determined by the execution, no pilot should attempt it unless confident of complete success. But you cant hold a simulation to those same rules... there is no risk whatsoever, so why not try them, and you might pull it off, and if you dont... well you respawn. You have to decide if the manoeuvre is impossible to do in real life, and if so, then there might be issues with an FM... it gets tough if the manoeuvre is something no one would ever consider doing for numerous reasons. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**
Kurfürst Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) what I am actually saying is that if the sim in question is making a low level full aerobatic routine in a medium bomber so easy that an internet pilot can do it any time they like yet real world test pilots wouldn't attempt it because the odds are almost certain death then the FM is wrong. I'm not aware of any manouvers that work on an 8 out of 10 basis, they either work or they don't, the success of which is determined by the execution, no pilot should attempt it unless confident of complete success. So which one is it? Edited October 30, 2014 by Kurfürst 1 http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.
bongodriver Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 But you cant hold a simulation to those same rules... there is no risk whatsoever, so why not try them, and you might pull it off, and if you dont... well you respawn. You have to decide if the manoeuvre is impossible to do in real life, and if so, then there might be issues with an FM... it gets tough if the manoeuvre is something no one would ever consider doing for numerous reasons. I have already decided that a low level aerobatic routine is not possible from take off in a He-111 (I struggle to understand why this idea is met with doubt), I base my claim that the FM in question is wrong because it has been demonstrated it can be done 'routinely' by amateurs in said FM.
bongodriver Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 So which one is it? Which one is what? present me with a contradiction.
outlawal2 Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Well Bongo here is the deal.. There is no way to know if the FM is flawed but it has already been proven that the maneuver is possible... Your assertion that it is too easy to complete the maneuver can only be proven if in real life multiple attempts are made and failed.. So I nominate YOU to be the first one to try it out in real life and if you can't complete the maneuver I MIGHT think that the model MAY be flawed... Other than that this entire conversation is ridiculous... Either the plane CAN or it CANNOT perform the maneuver and yes it CAN... Conversation should be over... (But I know it won't be) Make sure you have someone filming when you make your attempt. Thanks! "Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence." RAMBO
bongodriver Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 it has not been proved that a He-111 can do a full low level aerobatic routine from take off, what are you talking about?
ED Team NineLine Posted October 30, 2014 ED Team Posted October 30, 2014 I have already decided that a low level aerobatic routine is not possible from take off in a He-111 (I struggle to understand why this idea is met with doubt), I base my claim that the FM in question is wrong because it has been demonstrated it can be done 'routinely' by amateurs in said FM. I dont know what you are referencing, I am only stating in general, not a specific incident.... we dont have a He-111 in DCS, so its a moot point to be discussed here and better suited for the boards of the sim that does. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**
bongodriver Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 The He-111 is not exclusively my contribution to this topic, I am discussing on the basis of it's prior inclusion, forgive me if I take in to account the topic as a whole rather than one or two post prior in my discussions.
ED Team NineLine Posted October 30, 2014 ED Team Posted October 30, 2014 The He-111 is not exclusively my contribution to this topic, I am discussing on the basis of it's prior inclusion, forgive me if I take in to account the topic as a whole rather than one or two post prior in my discussions. Maybe it would be best to drop the He-111 reference then, its confusing things now... speaking in general, what I said above still seems reasonable when judging an FM against the real world.... Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**
outlawal2 Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 So what you are saying is that an He-111 can't do the maneuver (where your proof of this is I do not know, but I guess we will roll with it) then the flight model of the P-51 as modelled in DCS is flawed becase it CAN do the maneuver... Sorry but that makes absolutely ZERO sense.. Pick a plane to talk about and stick with it.. Mixing apple Heinkels and Orange Mustangs is ridiculous and totally irrelevant to the OP... "Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence." RAMBO
bongodriver Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Doing a barrel roll right after takeoff was one of Bob Hoovers signature moves. Given the number of aircraft he's flown I wouldn't be surprised if he's even done it in a HE 111. Edit: I just realized he's not taking off in the first part of the video but I do know that was his trademark. Sure, from page 3, but it's only when I speak it gets 'confusing'
Kurfürst Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) Which one is what? present me with a contradiction. You say that a virtual pilot shouldn't be able to do something a real life pilot won't be willing to do. But there is no logical or physical connection between the two whatsoever. Ok, lets try to use a picture then to illustrate it... Edited October 30, 2014 by Kurfürst 1 http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.
outlawal2 Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Then what is your friggin point? The video (from page 3) clearly shows that it CAN be done... Dude are you all right? It CAN be done and your assertion that it is too easy in DCS can only be proven by doing it in real life which as has been stated numerous times is quite HAZARDOUS to one's health.. Personally, I would bet that it probably is NOT that difficult to pull off as long as you have obtained enough speed during rollout before you ascend.. The speed is the critical factor.. But I sure as Hell am not going to prove it in real life and neither are you so this whole conversation is moot... "Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence." RAMBO
bongodriver Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 You say that a virtual pilot shouldn't be able to do something a real life pilot won't be willing to do. But there is no logical connection between the two whatsoever. Ok, lets try to use a picture then to illustrate it... Won't because it can't
bongodriver Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Then what is your friggin point? The video (from page 3) clearly shows that it CAN be done... in a Rockwell commander flown by Bob Hoover yes. and don't get all pissy about it.
Kurfürst Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 in a Rockwell commander flown by Bob Hoover yes. So whats the difference between a Rockwell Commander and a Heinkel 111? Because curiously, the two can have rather similar wingloading and powerloading. That and of course the RC is quite a bit slower. http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.
bongodriver Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 So whats the difference between a Rockwell Commander and a Heinkel 111?. This kind of sums up my impression of your aviation knowledge, this is becoming futile, like telling a BOS dev that unlocks are a bad idea.
outlawal2 Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Well I am done with you buddy.. You completely twist the whole conversatin around on itself and then refute your own statements and then allude that Kurfursts knowledge is suspect.. Dude, you have serious coherency issues and I am not going to attempt to incorporate rationale thinking into your delusion any further... Please haze on... 2 "Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence." RAMBO
bongodriver Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Nice to meet you too, whoever you are. Good day!
Solty Posted November 2, 2014 Posted November 2, 2014 ...and there I thought that DCS forums are mature or at least there are no trolls here. Needless to say I was wrong. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA
bongodriver Posted November 2, 2014 Posted November 2, 2014 (edited) ...and there I thought that DCS forums are mature or at least there are no trolls here. Needless to say I was wrong. Kurfurst has been around a while. We will need a lot of popcorn for this one;P I have seen at least one video where pilot did a snap right after takeoff. So low fuel maneuvering like that is not a suprise. Although the plane was not a warbird Small single engine aircraft in capable hands it's not unheard of. Bob Hoover again....check from 3:30 But still nobody seems to have ever linked a looping manoeuvre into the sequence, the likelihood of having enough energy from take off is remote. Edited November 2, 2014 by bongodriver 1
Teapot Posted November 2, 2014 Posted November 2, 2014 (edited) Needless to say I was wrong. It is "needless" but you said it anyway ... :P So to sum up we have two factions. One side who says a Rockwell Shrike is an acceptable stand-in for a Heinkel 111 and therefore Hoover's demonstration in the Rockwell should stand as evidence that a Heinkel should be able to do same. The other side disagrees and points out that just because you can make marmalade with oranges; you cannot adequately do the same with apples and expect an identical result (both being fruit). So here you have it ... apples may or may not be able to do barrel rolls on take-off, because Rockwell Shrikes can do marmalade .. er :huh: or was that Heinkels do oranges? Damn notes ... (shuffles through notes) ... ah here we go, missed this little bugger ... Henikels may be able to do barrel-rolls if they're flown in marmalade by Mr. Hoover; while eating an apple in the cockpit drinking iced tea ... DO NOT attempt this in a Rockwell Shrike, unless you have copious amounts of iced tea ... good day to you all kind sirs (salutes briskly and walks off to a tuneless whistle). :lol: Edited November 2, 2014 by Teapot Neaten up the impeccable logic ... 1 "A true 'sandbox flight sim' requires hi-fidelity flyable non-combat utility/support aircraft." Wishlist Terrains - Bigger maps Wishlist Modules - A variety of utility aircraft to better reflect the support role. E.g. Flying the Hornet ... big yawn ... flying a Caribou on a beer run to Singapore? Count me in. Extracting a Recon Patrol from a hastily prepared landing strip at a random 6 figure grid reference? Now yer talking!
Screamadelica Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 Excellent post Teapot. That clears everything up nicely. I'm off to buy some marmalade and ice tea for my next flight, should help my piloting skills no end. :megalol: Cheers, Scream. 1
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