F-15 Radar bugs?

[GGTharos]

Yeah ... as I recall it was 2 MiGs, I think one dodged a missile, the othe fired back and got splashed.

[Kenan]

They SAW their trails early, but thought they were targets, airplanes, so they headed towords them. Only after some time did they get beeping and realised those were missiles, but at that time it was late.

 

I'd really like to see that article. I remmember stumbling upon some of them on internet..will try to find it.

[Pilotasso]

It would just make it a bigger challenge for them, but after hours and hours of sitting in front their PC's they'd find its weaknesses and exploit them big time.

 

 

You say this^^^^ at the same time you afirm this:

 

 

BUT, since you did record those tracks, it's pretty strange you say I suck at dodging missiles as, if I remmeber correctly, you 44th guys used to fire so many Amraams at me (and miss) that you had to go RTB, refuel and rearm, while I was orbiting around nearby hill twidling my toes out of boredom.

 

 

Seems to me either you contradicted yourself or you admited that the AMRAAM is indeed weaker than it should.

 

If you look at the online stats the MIg blasts the F-15 away. Doesnt sound right does it? The eagle has better radar, more missiles and better authonomy yet its been owned, and its multi engagement capability is here merely as an apendix because its useless. Looks like the soviet doctrine of many vs quality works after all!

 

In my View if the AMRAAM is what it should be as its portrayed ingame then I would like to remind you that, for example, the R-27ET cannot track through clouds. Worse, by the time you get lauch authorization you should be evading the AMRAAM. Instead you fly straight to it and fire your ET regardlesss of the weather, because the slammer will miss, atracted to chaff behind your airframe. How cool is that?

 

And on top of that with the kill record that all R-27's missiles have... Only 1 (rumoured) indirect hit out of dozens of shots. and the damaged plane returned to base (although never flown again).

[GGTharos]

Also, for those of you who have seen the F-15 Archer video ... the sidewinder that goes mad is apprently a common sign fo the missile losing lock -early- ... now I imagine this might mean that IR missile 'sniping' should be a low-probability affair, yet in LOMAC it is fairly successful.

 

So eh ... like I said ... missiles in LO are as imperfect as they are in every other sim, in their own little quirky ways.

[Pilotasso]

I can live with some glitches, but it makes me some confusion to read that this is OK for the AMRAAM because the eagle its not a pilots favourite airplane. :D

[GGTharos]

Rgr, my comment wasn't really directed at you, hehe :D Missiles are PITA and hopefully they will continue being updated so that some more realistic BVR combat may be undertaken :)

[Pilotasso]

Looking forward to it in BS or any patch that follows it. By no means I want it to be too difficult to dodge, after all Ill be shot at with it too. I'd rather see the enemy take defensive with the consideration that missile deserves. Not just fly by it. Its a mockery realy.

 

-"How dare you to fly into my missiles like that?! I want respect!" LOL

[nscode]

Wonder if BS will be able to dodge 'em :D

[GGTharos]

The BS can fly in the notch all day long so ... draw your own conclusions :D

[capttrob]

You are correct. The radar doesn't fail to detect a primary reflection. It just doesn't display the return on the screen in a look down situation, if that reflection's Doppler falls below the gate. (You may already be aware of the following...) This is the famous (infamous?) Doppler notch. In order to filter out ground returns, objects approaching below a certain speed are filtered out and not displayed. So, if he beams you in a manner that allows the closure speed to fall below that cutoff point, he will disappear on you. Your radar may be seeing him but it's no longer telling you about him. This isn't an issue in a look-up situation because there's no reason to filter the returns. The gate is removed and he is displayed as a beaming target.

 

Rich

 

Good point. Now that i think of it, i do remember reading something about doppler dropping returns when the target is below a certain speed. I'll have to keep an eye on that as well the next time. But IIRC, most of these targets were head to head. never turning or jinking with closure rates in excess of 1100 KIAS. All of a sudden... poof... gone.

 

Thanks for your insight IronHand. And thanks for your tutorials as well. I got some good use out of them....:icon_supe

 

 

edit: As for this ongoing AMRAAM debate that seems to pop up in many threads (my fault for bringing it up in this one), i agree with both Breadfan and GG and Pilotasso. I can see Breadfan's point of view in saying that virtual pilots have a chance to figure out how to defeat any missle, even the most uber missle. At the same time, pilots dont have to do much to evade the AMRAAM at its present state in this game.

 

With that said, anyone have some good tactics for defeating the R-27ET? Everytime i get a missle warning without a TEWS indication, i drop my heat signature, start beaming with assorted maneuvers, drop chaff and flare.. etc. But that little sucker will still track me down 3 out of 5. Also, I used to turn on my ECM when an R-77 fires (while maneuvering), but im quickly thinking that may not be the best thing to do in this game...lol

[Kenan]

You say this^^^^ at the same time you afirm this:

Seems to me either you contradicted yourself or you admited that the AMRAAM is indeed weaker than it should.

 

 

You're forgeting terrain masking, going into weeds, snaking manouvers and every other thing u think of and pursue when engaged. It's not as black and white and it certainly doesn't mean Amraam can be dodged by every freaking rookie out there. So, if I by some inhuman effort manage to dodge a salvo of them (1 out of say, 3 of such situations), does it mean the missile is crap?

Definetely not.

 

If you look at the online stats the MIg blasts the F-15 away. Doesnt sound right does it? The eagle has better radar, more missiles and better authonomy yet its been owned, and its multi engagement capability is here merely as an apendix because its useless. Looks like the soviet doctrine of many vs quality works after all!

 

So you have 629 official kills and you're still moaning when some Mig29S pilot shoots you down? "OMG, he has weaker radar, less missiles, worse autonomy, how he dared to shoot me down?!"

 

Yup. I suggest you demand a public apology from all those hard working Mig29 bastards that managed to shoot you down once in six tries.

 

 

In my View if the AMRAAM is what it should be as its portrayed ingame then I would like to remind you that, for example, the R-27ET cannot track through clouds.

 

Yeah. ED should disable clouds for ET and make Amraam even more powerful. AFterall, you have measely 368 kills with it. Guess you had to really work hard for each of those kills.

 

Worse, by the time you get lauch authorization you should be evading the AMRAAM. Instead you fly straight to it and fire your ET regardlesss of the weather, because the slammer will miss, atracted to chaff behind your airframe. How cool is that?

 

That's not about 'cool', that's about online tactics which I'm not going to discuss here with you. It takes skill and smart thinking. I'll leave the rest for you to figure out. And yes, we're not using aimbots or radar hacks to do it.

 

 

And on top of that with the kill record that all R-27's missiles have... Only 1 (rumoured) indirect hit out of dozens of shots. and the damaged plane returned to base (although never flown again).

 

I agree. The R27R/ER in Lomac should be even more dumbed down. It's just not fair towards all those Shoot & A-pole personas.

[GGTharos]

You're forgeting terrain masking, going into weeds, snaking manouvers and every other thing u think of and pursue when engaged. It's not as black and white and it certainly doesn't mean Amraam can be dodged by every freaking rookie out there. So, if I by some inhuman effort manage to dodge a salvo of them (1 out of say, 3 of such situations), does it mean the missile is crap?

Definetely not.

 

And do you think that these maneuvers are so easy or convenient to execute in real life?

 

So you have 629 official kills and you're still moaning when some Mig29S pilot shoots you down? "OMG, he has weaker radar, less missiles, worse autonomy, how he dared to shoot me down?!"

 

Yup. I suggest you demand a public apology from all those hard working Mig29 bastards that managed to shoot you down once in six tries.

 

Actually there are a -lot- of problems with the MiG's radar which are -not- simulated. And by relation, the Su-27's radar also (but quite a bit less severe). Instead, it's the F-15 having radar problems. Hello? As far as realism goes, this is definitely not right.

 

Yeah. ED should disable clouds for ET and make Amraam even more powerful. AFterall, you have measely 368 kills with it. Guess you had to really work hard for each of those kills.

 

The ET DOES track through clouds in LO. It should NOT! In fact, it should be having issues with forward-quarter tracking, as it uses a fairly old and fairly susceptible to CM's seeker. Again, NOT modelled in LOMAC.

 

That's not about 'cool', that's about online tactics which I'm not going to discuss here with you. It takes skill and smart thinking. I'll leave the rest for you to figure out. And yes, we're not using aimbots or radar hacks to do it.

 

No, but you -are- being shot at with under-perfoming weapons, and you're shooting back with -over- performing weapons in some situations.

Right now LOMAC's missiles are in ... a mess.

 

I agree. The R27R/ER in Lomac should be even more dumbed down. It's just not fair towards all those Shoot & A-pole personas.

 

Not really. Both it, and the AIm-7 need to be better simulated (See a trend forming here?) The real issue is that vulnerability to decoys with respect to aspect and onboard processing capability is poorly modelled. In fact, it's backwards.

 

 

So -what- tactics are you talking about? I can stay head-on with you, dodge -every- single missile you fire at me with minimal movement, merge and kill you. The point here isn't that I'm more skilled. The point is that LOMAC missiles -suck- and do not currently reflect the threat that they should so make you use proper tactics, as we know of them. So where are the tactics in that? I mean sure, you can say 'well this and this is a tactic'. Fine. Cool. But this is a -simulator- and it should make you inclined to use realistic tactics. But on the other hand, you can -easily- defeat missiles without them. EASILY.

 

That's all there is to it.

[Rhen]

The BS can fly in the notch all day long so ... draw your own conclusions :D

 

While the BS airframe will be in the notch, the rotor blades won't. A stationary helicopter will be visible on an F-15 radar as long as the blades are turning (let's say turning fast enough to sustain flight).

[Rhen]

It's been said that since an online player does lots of practice on the simulator that he/she could beat the accurately modeled missile in an accurately modeled aircraft. This may - in theory - be true, but what exactly do you part-time fighter pilots think REAL fighter pilots do for a living? They're not gas station attendants who are occasionally allowed to fly a $30million aircraft for fun a couple of times a week. :rolleyes:

 

Fighter pilots spend 8-10 hours/week flying, they spend 15-20 hours planning for those missions, they spend 5-7 hours debriefing those missions (less for ANG/AFRES), they spend a couple of hours in the vault doing target study, threat study, etc. Then they have an additional duty or two as their secondary job.

 

You may think that you've had many engagements with a slammer, but what do you think fighter pilots do when we go fly? We go up in a 4-ship, fly out to the MOA/Restricted area (some piece of NATO airspace), split up into 2-ship elements and fight each other with slammers, sparrows, sidewinders, and guns. Granted, it's simulated - JUST LIKE Lock On (funny that...). With all that full-time work doing "pilot shit," you think you could evade a real slammer in the real aircraft and pay real consequences? :icon_toil Tell ya what, get a good racing sim and practice driving around at 250kph until you're good. Then you and a friend get in your respective cars, each with an AK-47, and drive down the autobahn at 240kph and try to take each other out without wrecking or hitting the "civilian" traffic on the road. Tell me how it goes. :p

[GGTharos]

Rhen, I heard from an F-16 pilot that wether you see the chopper or not is highly dependant on the look-down angle ... so I'm getting a lot of mixed messages!

[Weta43]

Rhen,

 

While not defending LO’s radar or missile modelling (which both seem to me to have their strengths & weaknesses) & accepting that the idea of sims at this level getting you to where you could really get in a plane & fly around an AIM-120 is fantasy (like the inverse of the experience of the real life A10 pilot who said LO was harder to fly than the real thing, but exponentially more so), I have always thought that SIM pilots/players do get to spend a lot more time engaged in the actual "combat" part of “flying” than even the most fortunate pilots in real life & so missile in sims are going to end up with lower PK’s than the missile they’re supposed to be models of & the radars are going to lose lock more often (within the constraints of the simulation – not talking LO specifically, but assuming that a notional model of a missile had its own strengths & weaknesses compared to the real missile so they both end up about as difficult to get away from - though different) because sim pilots stand a better chance of learning effective techniques against missiles etc of a given performance than an actual combat pilot.

That was a bit convoluted but do you get what I mean – As a sim player you sit at your computer & in a couple of hours have 10 - 20 - maybe 30 missiles launched at you & get unambiguous & immediate feedback on whether the technique you used worked or didn't. Even if you modelled the AIM-120 perfectly in game, you’d have some people (the ones who end up posting online) spending 6 hours a day every day at the computer till they’ve found out the best ways to defeat it & have them off pat & the missile will look like it was modelled “weak”.

 

You say that “This may - in theory - be true” & that a “Fighter pilots spend 8-10 hours/week flying”, but the first year I had this game I probably spent that much time a week on the game & the LO slammer probably looked pretty good against me for a good part of that time. Now some of that may be a lack of prior training, research & a possible lack of natural talent, but I suspect it’s also ‘cause some of the more keen players/posters who make the missiles here look sick have put double & more time in than this a week over a much longer time in a variety of sims. So - if you can say - in that 8 - 10 hours a week of flight time how many are simulating the heated end of combat & how many actual or simulated launches would you make / have to "evade" - ballpark?

 

Also – a related thing & something I’ve always wanted to know: When in an exercise someone "launches" a slammer at you, how do you decide if it "hits" or not.

(I don't know much about this but I assume you don't actually launch missiles at each other - on the basis that even without a live warhead a few hundred pounds of supersonic metal's not something you want to have actively homing in on your multi million dollar fighter - even from a maintenance point of view).

Is it assumed that if specific launch parameters are met you've made a hit? If so then what about practicing evasive manoeuvres - who decides if they've actually worked? I've wondered about that since reading about that India/USA exercise - Copeland was it?

[rlogue]

I would agree that at the outer limits of the missiles effective zone, if modelled exactly correct guys probably could find a way to evade them, however I strongly suspect that if I launch a properly modelled slammer at you and you continue to fly inside the parameters of the missile, more times than not you will be blown up regardless of what you do. (I do not know this for fact)

 

I would think in real life, both parties (good and the darkside of the force) base their tactics on staying out of eachothers weapons parameters ... not pressing into them with the hope and belief that they will be able to dodge the missiles which is what we presently have in the game on both sides.

[Weta43]

Very likely, after all if you get it wrong you're (maybe) dead. Still I'd guess dodging is worth a try till somewhere just inside what's designated the NEZ (which is why thats the NEZ, but it must be a bit arbitrary)

[Floyd]

 

So -what- tactics are you talking about? I can stay head-on with you, dodge -every- single missile you fire at me with minimal movement, merge and kill you. The point here isn't that I'm more skilled. The point is that LOMAC missiles -suck- and do not currently reflect the threat that they should so make you use proper tactics, as we know of them. So where are the tactics in that? I mean sure, you can say 'well this and this is a tactic'. Fine. Cool. But this is a -simulator- and it should make you inclined to use realistic tactics. But on the other hand, you can -easily- defeat missiles without them. EASILY.

 

That's all there is to it.

 

Oh, after all the patches and the addon the missiles suck. So one better

rename 'LockOn: Modern Air Combat' to 'LockOn: Mostly Arcade Cramp'.

Who said missiles are somehow important in a flight sim?

But the graphics are great!

[Kenan]

Well, I don't know GG, you're a beta tester, so talk to ED to fix these things.

I mean, if they're not concentrating on naval aspect, at least make the AA aspect right. It seems to me, lots of things are wrong with LOMAC. So make it right, or just, protest, wave your hands..

 

And BTW, how can you be so sure about SU27 radar problems? What's your source? I would really like to have a look at that.

[capttrob]

Dont forget, Fighter jocks also spend many hours in the sim where missles do hit. A full motion sim with full wrap-around views... no TIR. And i'd imagine the missles on DoD sims are modelled more precisely...

 

Edit: Also keep in mind, pilots today get type rated in the aircraft before having ever stepped in the actual airplane. Thats how good sims are today. But these are multi-million dollar simulators, not a 30 dollar game. Basically, my "sim" cost me far less with the HOTAS, custom built machine, TIR and LCD. I suppose if you want the most realistic sim, its going to require more money. For now, enjoy the game....

 

:)

 

BTW, Does ED (or any other game dev) have any plans to make flyable bombers with Nukes? Imagine that for a game... oh my...

[Pilotasso]

So you have 629 official kills and you're still moaning when some Mig29S pilot shoots you down? "OMG, he has weaker radar, less missiles, worse autonomy, how he dared to shoot me down?!"

 

Yup. I suggest you demand a public apology from all those hard working Mig29 bastards that managed to shoot you down once in six tries.

 

 

Yeah. ED should disable clouds for ET and make Amraam even more powerful. AFterall, you have measely 368 kills with it. Guess you had to really work hard for each of those kills.

 

Dont take this the wrong way but it seems that you had been speaking like this out of your preferrence to russian birds. I flew all and this makes a real marking difference from the kind of pilot you say I am.

I fly with a group of friends online in F-15's regularly and all complain of the same. I dont care how many kills I got, they were still obtained with tactics I wouldnt use otherwise such as going into a wall of migs and take them 1 on 1 at a time when I could have used the eagle the ways it was meant to be used.

[GGTharos]

Well, I don't know GG, you're a beta tester, so talk to ED to fix these things.

I mean, if they're not concentrating on naval aspect, at least make the AA aspect right. It seems to me, lots of things are wrong with LOMAC. So make it right, or just, protest, wave your hands..

 

And BTW, how can you be so sure about SU27 radar problems? What's your source? I would really like to have a look at that.

 

The unclassified manual, and pilot testimonies. You'll have to find those for yourself though, I -really- do not have time to do it right now. Maybe in the future.

 

(Note: Most pilot testimonies I've seen relate tot he MiG-29, but the systems are pretty similar ... the Su-27 however, AFAIK, has a better radar processor, which is why it suffers less)

[GGTharos]

Oh, after all the patches and the addon the missiles suck. So one better

rename 'LockOn: Modern Air Combat' to 'LockOn: Mostly Arcade Cramp'.

Who said missiles are somehow important in a flight sim?

But the graphics are great!

 

 

The devs tried to make it more realistic; stuff happened and it didn't work out. They'll still fix it.

 

Accusing the devs of not thinking of things as important is beloney, it simply is not true.

[Floyd]

The devs tried to make it more realistic; stuff happened and it didn't work out. They'll still fix it.

 

Accusing the devs of not thinking of things as important is beloney, it simply is not true.

 

Well, it was you to say the missiles suck, i was just drawing my conclusions

from this (assuming you are right). Radar and missiles seem to be quite important

for a 'modern combat sim', so devs better come up with a decent model. And with

Lomac beeing a sequel to the Flanker series they had time enough - IMHO.

 

But i really don't want to argue about it and live with the fact that radar, missiles

and other import things change with every patch - more or less.