R-27 ET "Anomalies"

[GGTharos]

Good advice GG. Usually im pretty good with getting some flares out there, but since i was winning the turn battle, i figured i was well out of his seeker ranges and all i was concentrating on was to get a target solution which was immenant. Basically i let my guard down since i felt i had him on his back. Dont think i'll let that happen again.. ;)

 

Avoid turning with flankers. Shoot them in the face ;)

 

The other thing that he can do is,if the fight get slow enough, he can initiate a hook (combat version of cobra), lock you witht he helmet as his nose is pulling through, and essentially shoot you while you're 130deg off ... so once you see a very rapid nose movement, put the flares out and shoot him first!

[Pilotasso]

Actually, even the AMRAAM would likely -not- be searching RL the same way it does in LO.

 

There was simply no time to implement more complex seeker logic in this case (essentially the real thing's scan rate is likely too slow to cover the airspace it does now in its full gimbal search).

 

Well IRL they seem to be much better at guessing where the target is if they "feel" the target is slipping from its seeker. We dont have this either. Infact the LO's AMRAAM gimbal feature doesnt compensate for the absence of this neither the weak seeker resisntence to chaff and clutter. ;)

 

If it tracked at least as good as the Sparrow ingame, it would already be enough for me to actualy be usefull even if I used it primarily for puting 2,3 or 4 targts on defensive silmultaneously.

[capttrob]

 

Kenan, shamandgg...feeling threatened? :p

 

I dont know if these two do it, but i have noticed alot of pilots turn tail in this game. They fire off 2-4 missles. Make a 180 and go supersonic. What is the fun in that? IRL, sure you want to save your hide, but in a game? Getting down to the nitty-gritty knife fight after evading a few sticks inbound, should be what online dogfighting is all about. If you lose, get another airplane....like i do....lol

[GGTharos]

Ok. GG, make sure you ask ED to have ET miss it's dead on (oblivous) target every time when fired from 15-20km range, afterall, that's the only "realistic" outcome.

 

 

I guess you don't get it. Firing an IRH missile without lock equals good luck having it hit anything but terra firma. In real life, anyway.

Advanced sensor model is still on the table ...

 

But either way, assuming the proper fixes are made, proper functioning of missiles -in general- will also be restored, ie. RH very effective head-on, IRH very effective tail-on.

[D-Scythe]

Ok. GG, make sure you ask ED to have ET miss it's dead on (oblivous) target every time when fired from 15-20km range, afterall, that's the only "realistic" outcome.

 

Also make sure Amraam gets powered up, F15C radar range gets an increase, SU-27 uses a slingshot view instead of HUD and R27ER's, break down half the way.

 

In the mean time, we'll stop using ET's cuz it's cheating and we really, I mean really, don't wanna hurt your feelings.

 

Just kidding.

 

Hmm, than enlighten us. How exactly would an IR missile like the ET distinguish a blob of heat (of a fighter jet) from the blob of heat from a heated rock on the ground or a blob of heat from clouds?

 

Unlike radar missiles, IR missiles cannot tell if the blobs of heat are moving. There is no doppler equivalent for IR missiles to filter out clutter. Do you understand? An IR missile needs to be cued by radar or by the pilot to tell it which blob of heat to track. It's the whole "filtering out clutter" process that IR missiles cannot handle.

 

A maddogged ET is just as likely to start chasing random clouds as it is to chase another fighter.

[Kenan]

I dont know if these two do it, but i have noticed alot of pilots turn tail in this game. They fire off 2-4 missles. Make a 180 and go supersonic. What is the fun in that?

 

Shaman and me just learned it from Pilotasso. And it works like a charm.

[GGTharos]

I dont know if these two do it, but i have noticed alot of pilots turn tail in this game. They fire off 2-4 missles. Make a 180 and go supersonic. What is the fun in that? IRL, sure you want to save your hide, but in a game? Getting down to the nitty-gritty knife fight after evading a few sticks inbound, should be what online dogfighting is all about. If you lose, get another airplane....like i do....lol

 

Some of us prefer to splash you from afar and go home without getting killed ... but that's got nothing to do with the 180 ... when the missiles are fixed, you sure aren't going to be trying to fly head-on with them though ...

[GGTharos]

Well IRL they seem to be much better at guessing where the target is if they "feel" the target is slipping from its seeker. We dont have this either. Infact the LO's AMRAAM gimbal feature doesnt compensate for the absence of this neither the weak seeker resisntence to chaff and clutter. ;)

 

If it tracked at least as good as the Sparrow ingame, it would already be enough for me to actualy be usefull even if I used it primarily for puting 2,3 or 4 targts on defensive silmultaneously.

 

IRL I doubt they lose head-on targets at all ... also I believe the search is constrained bytarget parameters (ie. promarily range, velocity and angular traversal)

[Shaman]

I dont know if these two do it, but i have noticed alot of pilots turn tail in this game. They fire off 2-4 missles. Make a 180 and go supersonic. What is the fun in that?

Shaman and me just learned it from Pilotasso. And it works like a charm.

Hehehe, yeah ;) We learn from the best :cool:

[capttrob]

Some of us prefer to splash you from afar and go home without getting killed ... but that's got nothing to do with the 180 ...

 

Actually, from what i have seen so far, many of them run to their SAM batteries. I noticed quite a few pilots like to orbit their SAM concentrations, come out to the edge, launch a few missles, then turn tail back to the cuddle with their SAM's. If i fire at someone, i wanna see the fireworks! Not cuddle with my SAM's.... i'd also like to see the fireworks if i get splashed insread of an abrupt switch to theater view...but thats just me.. ;)

[GGTharos]

Well, what can I say except - your opponent is being smart ;)

 

Everyone has their own techniques and zero reason to cooperate with you as your target ;)

[504 Wolverine]

So is this the spamraamers® "Whine of the week"™?

[capttrob]

I dont know about my opponent, but i bought the game for entertainment, not competition. If this were my job and i was paid by my kill-death ratio (or if it were real life), sure, i'd run to my SAM batteries too, along with a few other techniques. I dont feel it has anything to do with intelligence. But, to each their own... i dont judge.. ;)

[GGTharos]

So is this the spamraamers® "Whine of the week"™?

 

Stop flying a pig and fly a fighter, then you won't be worried about 'spamraaming' ;)

 

besides which, I've seen Su-27/33's lately push into R-73 range and spam all their IRHs at once in a suicide bid to get the other plane. Spamraamers indeed.

[Shepski]

...i have noticed alot of pilots turn tail in this game. They fire off 2-4 missles. Make a 180 and go supersonic. What is the fun in that? IRL, sure you want to save your hide, but in a game? Getting down to the nitty-gritty knife fight after evading a few sticks inbound, should be what online dogfighting is all about. If you lose, get another airplane....like i do....lol

 

I think the server statistics are part of that... people are too worried about their scores now... I love to get dirty and fight regardless of the outcome. :) That's also why I suck at online FPS games like Call of Duty... I run in guns blazing!

[504 Wolverine]

:icon_lol:

 

(oops...... forgot the :p......... rough weekend.... suffering still........ fly a fighter? NEVER :p I'm happy with my "Pig" :D)

[GGTharos]

It's ok, I'm just kidding with ya ;)

 

Truth be told right now 120's are so easy to dodge it takes 2-3 on average to take out an enemy aircraft. Then again there are -still- people who like to shoot everything off the rails and turn around and hit the road ...I just shake my head at that.

[Pilotasso]

Shaman and me just learned it from Pilotasso. And it works like a charm.

 

R.O.F.L.M.A.O. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

a small correction here :D :

 

Engaged, used to hit 3 or 4 targets and after becoming winchester, turn tail and run from the rest of the angered 504 squad. ;)

 

USED past tense. because ppl learned to exploit the games flaws and now just fly straight past my missiles. Now its rare the sortie that I dont use up all 8 missiles to kill 1 target if at all. :D

[Shaman]

We all know that's not the truth. From what I observed on the track you always did turn tail after firing few amraams. Then you turned back, fired some more, and bugged out again.

It's cheap tactics, it works on some unorganized flights, I don't complain about that. I also use it.

The only one who complains now, is you, Pilotasso.

You thought people would not get better with time?

[Pilotasso]

We all know that's not the truth. From what I observed on the track you always did turn tail after firing few amraams. Then you turned back, fired some more, and bugged out again.

It's cheap tactics, it works on some unorganized flights, I don't complain about that. I also use it.

The only one who complains now, is you, Pilotasso.

You thought people would not get better with time?

 

Now more seriously. I always wanted heavy oposition hence some of my provocative arrogant attitudes here or online (not that I make too much use of this with my RL character). After all why not encarnate the fantasy of being a pilot to the fullest. Real pilots are rarely modest.

 

What I complain is not your better skills. I can deal with that. ;)

 

What I complain is indeed cheap tactics, but such as those like flying straight at AMRAAM's to gain the initiative knowing that they will miss if you fly low and pop a few chaff cartriges. You know as well as me that it woult take ALOT more than that IRL to make it.

 

Turn tail, beaming, notching are valid tactics, no matter how coward they seem to be. They are teached to real pilots wich brings me again to the AMRAAM/ET issue. No 1 will teach you as a real pilot "fly torwards the missile and it will miss" or "you can maddog an R-27ET at 30 clicks and it will aquire automaticaly".

 

Its ludricous realy. R-27ET's have limited tactical use as they are primarily aimed at retreating targets that are too far to be caught with short range missiles but too close to classify it as a mainstream BVR weapon wich will motivate pilots to choose this goliath AA-8 aphid big brother when IRL a pilot wont rely on it to gain the initiative as we see ingame.

 

Also if you looked at the track closely you will see that I go R-73 and then to guns while AMRAAM's buzzed by just like conffetis.

[capttrob]

I think the server statistics are part of that... people are too worried about their scores now... I love to get dirty and fight regardless of the outcome. :) That's also why I suck at online FPS games like Call of Duty... I run in guns blazing!

 

Ahhh.. Call of Duty. The King of "Noob Weapon Whiners". I play CoD2 on the 360. It freakin rocks. Especially since they came out with the new patch. Most people whine about camping snipers and shotgun toting noobs. The best is sneaking up on a sniper and wacking him in the back of the head with a BAR....lol. Nothing wrong running in with guns blazing, as long as your aim is good. But yeah, i see your point. Leaderboards do tend to lead to more cautious play and sometimes cheating. For me, i like gaming as part of various other things i do to relax and have fun, its a hobby. Not something to create stress... ;)

[Shepski]

Guys... after looking at this ET issue myself I see where the confusion is...

 

The "NP" launch authorization(you all should be using the Russian HUD! :) ) for the R-27T/TE, and R-73 is not the definitive guidance range for the seeker as modeled in the sim. It is the optimal range... think of it as the RTR range so using launch overide and firing at it's HUD indicated R-MAX will still allow for guidance range but it won't have the energy to maneuver vs a defensive target.

 

So, when you are sneeking up on the F-15C in the valleys with EOS and he has no clue, you can launch over ride and fire outside the "NP" range and still get a good kill if he/she doesn't know what's coming.

[Shaman]

You have good points in this, Pilotasso

And Shepski is very right about the NP (launch auth) on russian fighters. It shows up when you are in optimal range, not max range. We actually use the maximum possible range to non manuevering targets when maddoging R-27ET.

Though about AMRAAMS they are actually not as effective IRL as some may think (I think you too), really. I've read about engagments with usage of those missile and it seems lots of them have been fired they missed horribly. It's still a very good missile, more effective compared to others.

I think missile effectiveness in LockOn is modeled very well.

About ET flying at you head-on. Usually just 1 flare does the trick!

Usually when I maddog ET I already have tally-on the bandit, anyway.

[Kenan]

 

What I complain is indeed cheap tactics, but such as those like flying straight at AMRAAM's to gain the initiative knowing that they will miss if you fly low and pop a few chaff cartriges. .

 

If you fly "low and pop a few chaff cartridges", Amraam will shoot you down 99% of times. You need to do a lot more then that. Don't try make it look like everyone can dodge it, regardless of the skill and circumstances, cuz it's not the way it is.

[Shaman]

If you fly "low and pop a few chaff cartridges", Amraam will shoot you down 99% of times. You need to do a lot more then that. Don't try make it look like everyone can dodge it, regardless of the skill and circumstances, cuz it's not the way it is.

That's true. You can drop all the chaff cartridges one after another in super fast sequence, and you'll get owned by AMRAAM. That's just plain stupid. I once was stupid enough to believe chaff was the ultimate solution for ARH missilesm, which is totally not true. You must learn how to use speed, alt, and your fighters agility, plus RWR and visual contact with the missile and last moment chuck-norris movements to actually avoid AMRAAM. But when you learn it, at longer ranges it's fairly easy. Though after 1st, 2nd.. AMRAAM, comes the 3rd shot, which kills you, because you can't dodge them all (own energy bleed, RWR clutter..).

And remember that your enemy has 8 of them. EIGHT OF THEM!