[OPEN] "Mk 108 is weak" thread

[Alladyn]

Just ended few fights vs Ai, and From my POV, that 30mm is deadly, as it should be, for me this thread is silly. sorry

Edited December 4, 2014 by Alladyn

[gavagai]

Let's stick to evidence instead of rhetoric.

 

Here are my results from a recent fight against the AI: 6 separate hit events with the Mk 108 before the P-51 finally goes down.

 

And this famous video:

Edited December 4, 2014 by gavagai

[otto]

/gdHvGhXazcs

 

When deflection shooting it's just not what it should be.The impact, damage physics are not modeled as they should imho .

 

The description told me i got 6 30mm hits(let's say it's wrong and i only got 3 or 2) but when i hit the 109 with the p51's mg's the description told me i got 10 hits. 10 hits to brake a 109's tale off. If this does not prove my point i don't know what will

 

 

 

I've got the shots on trak.

 

Min 0.30 and 2.30 for p51 vs 109.

Min 2.45 for 109 vs 109.

109 vs 109.trk

P51 vs 109.trk

Edited December 4, 2014 by otto

[otto]

Just ended few fights vs Ai, and From my POV, that 30mm is deadly, as it should be, for me this thread is silly. sorry

 

 

Show me your point of view.

 

I mean a few of your deflection shots with the mk108 please.

 

It's easy enough to post a track even for those of us who are silly.

 

 

Not impressed so far with the 30s ... not going to cry bloody murder yet because I've played enough modules that sometimes it takes practice. I've quickly killed one ai with the 30s and registered many hits on another Mustang with no effect. My main problem atm is that when I'm getting hits they don't show up ... meaning no visual evidence of a hit. Now I do have to say that the MG131 are very effective now especially compared to what we had on the Dora.

 

 

Indeed the main problem is some hits don't show up.

 

 

Sorry for double post. I'm still learning to post on forums.

Edited December 4, 2014 by otto

[ZaltysZ]

I average to 4 hits (4 separate clicks of cannon trigger) against AI P51. It would probably be less for human controlled P51 before it goes down.

[Johncaleb24]

I scored 10 108 hits and the 51 was blowing smoke everywhere but kept flying like it was just warmed up.

[otto]

 

 

In this shot i hit the propeller hub dead on.The propeller should be destroyed or the engine should at least stop even for an Ai plane.

Damage-108-3.trk

[fjacobsen]

I made some dogfights against an AI P-51, only firing the 108.

 

Hitting the oponent is harder in DCS than in IL-2 BOS for certain.

 

But in one fight Tacview reported 3 hits. Looking closely to the Tacview replay, the P-51 started to disintegrate allready after the second hit.

 

In another fight I had a single hit in the P-51's wingroot, which took apart the entire wing.

 

On other occasions I had serveral hits, like in the wingtips and rear fuselage with little effect apart from smoke and fuel trails.

 

I think that generally the effects of the 108 is Ok, but the DM modelling of the AI is a bit off when hit at certain parts.

 

The question is how the 108 and other large caliber cannons actually performed in real life.

Where they really one-hit one-kill weapons ?

I doubt that's the case, so until further I regard the 108 as sufficient modelled on the BF-109 K4.

 

I have greater doubts on the correct modelling of the smaller caliber guns, like the .50 on the DCS P-51D and guns on the DCS FW-190 D9 and BF-109 K4.

 

The biggest gripe I have with DCS is that damage doesn´t seem to affect the performance of the damaged AI aircrafts.

 

FinnJ

[Pilum]

I made some dogfights against an AI P-51, only firing the 108.

 

Hitting the oponent is harder in DCS than in IL-2 BOS for certain.

 

But in one fight Tacview reported 3 hits. Looking closely to the Tacview replay, the P-51 started to disintegrate allready after the second hit.

 

In another fight I had a single hit in the P-51's wingroot, which took apart the entire wing.

 

On other occasions I had serveral hits, like in the wingtips and rear fuselage with little effect apart from smoke and fuel trails.

 

I think that generally the effects of the 108 is Ok, but the DM modelling of the AI is a bit off when hit at certain parts.

 

The question is how the 108 and other large caliber cannons actually performed in real life.

Where they really one-hit one-kill weapons ?

I doubt that's the case, so until further I regard the 108 as sufficient modelled on the BF-109 K4.

 

I have greater doubts on the correct modelling of the smaller caliber guns, like the .50 on the DCS P-51D and guns on the DCS FW-190 D9 and BF-109 K4.

 

The biggest gripe I have with DCS is that damage doesn´t seem to affect the performance of the damaged AI aircrafts.

 

FinnJ

 

With the caveat I have done no systematic tests with the K4, I get the impression that it in many cases it requires around 4-5 Mk108 hits to put P-51 AI out of action.

 

This is too much I think since it seems that IRL in many cases just 1 Mk108 hit should be enough.

 

However, on the positive side the tough AI seems to be a "balanced" problem right now since statistically you need around 100 50-cal hits to down an AI Dora and around 20 Mk151 hits to down a p-51. It also seems to be a general problem that AI performance is not affected by hits and they happily continue flying until they die irrespective if they soak up 20 mm or 50-cals.

 

So it looks like you in DCS need around 4-5 times as many hits across the board meaning it is at least balanced even though I would be happy if the AI damage model was adjusted so that statistically you would need either one Mk108, 5 Mk151 or 20 50-cal hits to shoot down the AI which would bring it closer to IRL numbers.

 

So IMHO, the Mk108 does no better nor any worse right now: It's just a general problem in DCS that the AI are too tough :smilewink:

[nervousenergy]

The AI damage modeling is a limitation of the engine itself, unfortunately, and a design decision to simplify the computing load of your machine simulating multiple opponents. I'd also love for this to be improved, perhaps by threading AI off so multi-core machines can simulate much higher FM fidelity for multiple AI planes, but that's likely a ways off.

 

Looking at the exit wounds on B-17s that survived a 108 hit and landed to tell the tale, I'd think a single hit anywhere on a fighter would cause heavy damage, with a hit anywhere on the fuselage or wing roots to be a 'one hit kill'.

 

Of course, the general consensus for most in DCS is that planes of all types are simply too tough.

[Pilum]

Yep, the AI are simply too tough in DCS right now but as I see it, since it seems pretty balanced it's not as serious as it would be if the relative performance say between 50-cals and Mk108 was off.

 

IIRC then the German WW2 estimate was circa 4-5 Mk108 hits to down a B-17 as compared to 20 Mk151 hits. Not an absolute number of course but statistically....

[Pilum]

Concerning the processing cost of player versus AI DM: While I of course don't know the inner workings of the DCS source code, I can see a way around this: Just introduce an breakpoint between AI and player DM in the code for offline play:

 

If num AI>X use AI DM for AI

else use player DM for AI

 

Since there obviously already is a player DM the amount of coding needed should be minimal. Just a matter of deciding X which could even be a player defined variable so you could set this depending on your computer specs........

[Geronimo989]

IIRC then the German WW2 estimate was circa 4-5 Mk108 hits to down a B-17 as compared to 20 Mk151 hits. Not an absolute number of course but statistically....

 

In DCS we need roughly that much to down an AI fighter...

[otto]

@Pilum

 

The 50 cal machine gun damage model has been improved.I posted a demo at post 28, the last part of the video .

I think it was too weak b4 and now it's just a little, little bit overpowered.

Edited December 6, 2014 by otto

[rubblebeam]

Since the beginning of time there have been 2 main topics when it comes to German ww2 aircraft in simulations.

1. The FW190 "bar"

2. The under-powered cannons.

 

I have tried may time to take out the dora in the P-51 with minimal success and a whole lot of frustration.

I have flown 1 dogfight with the 109 against the P-51 and in 3 bursts he was in his 'chute.

Maybe some folk need to look at their gunnery skills and less at the perceived weakness of the German guns

[jermin]

3 bursts is already too many. And it is not about gunnery. We are talking the damage inflicted by a single MK 108 round. Accuracy is irrelevant here.

[otto]

I have tried may time to take out the dora in the P-51 with minimal success and a whole lot of frustration.

 

1.For me that's so easy.It's a joke. And i don't mean anything by it. I'm just saying what it is.

 

2.Does it seams realistic to you for a p51 to receive a 30mm shell dead on in the cockpit and to still fly like nothing happened ? Or two in the same wing ?

 

3.I hit the tail section of a 109 with multiple 30 mm shells and it did not to brake (post mission info estimates 6) and than i hit another 109 in the same tail section with 10 (post mission log) 50 call rounds and it broke off . Does this seem normal to you ?

Edited December 6, 2014 by otto

[flare2000x]

In the P-51 against the AI 109 I flew straight and level to see the effectiveness of the MK108 on player aircraft. I survived two direct 30mm M-Geschoss hits to the left wing. This shouldn't happen.

 

flare

[Aurora juutilainen]

28 hits with the 30mm all at the tail and fuselage, had to use the MG's to finish the job

[stray cat]

Let's not conflate bursts with individual shell hits. With the Mk 108 one hit should disable a fighter; one burst is too much.

Guys, I think you are leaving out a lot of things. It depends on where the shell hits, how fast it is when it hits, what the angle is and how strong the part of the plane is when it is hit.

 

Most of the time the claims of guns being too weak are simply hits by bullets that lost a lot of kinetic energy before reaching the target and then they more often than not have to hit the plane at a flat angle. If you shoot at an enemy plane with a .50 at 500m distance with both planes having a lot of airspeed the bullet will have lost a lot of kinetic energy before it hits.Also the kinetic energy still matters even on an explosive round because it would be able to punch into the metal before detonating. And if it is an explosive round, a lot of the energy from the explosion is lost because the target is moving at high speed. That is why for example you can get away after being hit by 2 strela missiles in a F86 if you fly very fast.

And as for structural damage, I dont think there is any bad modeling involved, sometimes the bullet hits just the right area to make a tail break off. The same happens when fly in a huey. If you get hammered by a 14.5mm gun you can often take many hits and the copter still being able to fly, and sometimes one single hit tears of your tail. And this very precise damage model is far better than "I hit the enemy plane with my powerful gun in a random spot, the plane DESERVES to explode/die because I earned the shot"

[otto]

Guys, I think you are leaving out a lot of things. It depends on where the shell hits, how fast it is when it hits, what the angle is and how strong the part of the plane is when it is hit.

 

Most of the time the claims of guns being too weak are simply hits by bullets that lost a lot of kinetic energy before reaching the target and then they more often than not have to hit the plane at a flat angle. If you shoot at an enemy plane with a .50 at 500m distance with both planes having a lot of airspeed the bullet will have lost a lot of kinetic energy before it hits.Also the kinetic energy still matters even on an explosive round because it would be able to punch into the metal before detonating. And if it is an explosive round, a lot of the energy from the explosion is lost because the target is moving at high speed. That is why for example you can get away after being hit by 2 strela missiles in a F86 if you fly very fast.

And as for structural damage, I dont think there is any bad modeling involved, sometimes the bullet hits just the right area to make a tail break off. The same happens when fly in a huey. If you get hammered by a 14.5mm gun you can often take many hits and the copter still being able to fly, and sometimes one single hit tears of your tail. And this very precise damage model is far better than "I hit the enemy plane with my powerful gun in a random spot, the plane DESERVES to explode/die because I earned the shot"

 

By German calculations, it took about 15-20 hits with the MG 151/20 ordnance to down a heavy bomber, but this was reduced to just 3-4 hits for a 30 mm shell, from the shattering effects of the hexogen explosive in the shells used for both the long-barreled MK 103 and shorter barreled MK 108 cannon. (Only 4-5 hits with 20 mm calibre ordnance were needed for frontal attacks.

3-4 hits for a b17.Probably less for a frontal attack with 30mm, nd i flew a mission where one ai p51 was hit 36 times b4 going down.

 

qIohE9n2IT8

 

minute 1:10 to min 1:15 presents the effects of 37mm ammo on german planes.It vaporizes them.:D

 

In the first image the first shell on the left is a mk108 30mm german shell.

In the second image the last shell on the right is a russian 37mm shell used by the yak9t's 37mm cannon presented in the video.

 

 

Even if not as powerfull, considering that the explosive power of a shell was a lot deadlier to an airplane than the penetrating power, the 30 imho should not be as week in dcs.

Edited December 10, 2014 by otto

[fjacobsen]

28 hits with the 30mm all at the tail and fuselage, had to use the MG's to finish the job

 

Those values are not number of hits, but rather hitpoints.

Using Tacview gives a much better overview of actual hits.

 

FinnJ

[Aurora juutilainen]

Those values are not number of hits, but rather hitpoints.

Using Tacview gives a much better overview of actual hits.

 

FinnJ

 

while you may be right, lets say in reality just a third or fourth of those 30mm hit (I saw a lot of hits anyway), minengeschoss or HEI, taking that many rounds and still flying is absolutely ridiculous regardless of where they hit.

[stray cat]

By German calculations, it took about 15-20 hits with the MG 151/20 ordnance to down a heavy bomber, but this was reduced to just 3-4 hits for a 30 mm shell, from the shattering effects of the hexogen explosive in the shells used for both the long-barreled MK 103 and shorter barreled MK 108 cannon. (Only 4-5 hits with 20 mm calibre ordnance were needed for frontal attacks.

3-4 hits for a b17.Probably less for a frontal attack with 30mm, nd i flew a mission where one ai p51 was hit 36 times b4 going down.

I think there is a problem with the videos showing single hits tearing planes apart. Can you guess? These are only the "best" videos they had, not every dogfight of ww2 was recorded on a video and of those that got recorded they probably threw away those that show planes not being destroyed.

You can bet there was a lot of situation where planes got hit by 50+ shots and still kept flying.

 

 

By German calculations, it took about 15-20 hits with the MG 151/20 ordnance to down a heavy bomber, but this was reduced to just 3-4 hits for a 30 mm shell

That is a bit far-fetched, because if those rounds dont hit something important that is needed to keep the plane flying then it is just a hole somewhere on the plane. Planes dont have hitpoints in real life.

 

And if you look at a plane from behind there is many very non perpendicular surfaces that increase the probability of a grazing hit + bullet losing a lot of kinetic energy before hitting + plane moving fast after detonation of HE

[otto]

I think there is a problem with the videos showing single hits tearing planes apart. Can you guess? These are only the "best" videos they had, not every dogfight of ww2 was recorded on a video and of those that got recorded they probably threw away those that show planes not being destroyed.

You can bet there was a lot of situation where planes got hit by 50+ shots and still kept flying.

 

 

 

50+ what ? airsoft pellets ? or 37 mm ammo :megalol: ?

 

So the luftwaffe experts that calculated 3-4 shots were enough to take down a b17( this knowing their country was at stake) did't know what they were doing ?

 

 

there is many very non perpendicular surfaces that increase the probability of a grazing hit + bullet losing a lot of kinetic energy before hitting + plane moving fast after detonation of HE

 

Maybe for a t34 tank that would be true .

 

 

 

This is what mk108 damage on b17 looks like: