What are the differences between the BF109, Dora, Pony?

[Yob]

But anyway

 

Arent we getting off topic again. Sorry to consistently bring this up, when some go off topic.

 

A major difference i have found between the 109 and the 190 is the 190 is a lot faster, and much easier to fly for hours on a flight sim then the 109.

 

I would say the 190's ergonomic layout also makes it much easier in combat to read speed, Alt, temps, fuel and Vertical Speed. Whereas in the 109 the fuel gauge is covered by the flare gun and some temps are aswell.

 

In the mustang the single biggest problem i had with the cockpit was the throttle lever covering the altimeter.

 

The other differences i have found is gun sight in the 109 i personally find much more accurate then the dora. On a par with the mustangs K-14 gunsight.

[JtD]

EAS means speed at Sea level, Or equivalent speed.

 

And why are you telling me?

[Crumpp]

EAS is commonly used to determine aircraft performance. It eliminates environmental effects and allows for easy conversion of performance to any set of conditions.

 

You use it a lot in college.

[Crumpp]

And why are you telling me?

 

Because he is trying to help you understand. The questions you and Holtzauge present define a knowledge level to anybody who is educated in the field of Aeronautical Sciences.

[JtD]

You're either saying you can't fly 165 knots EAS at 20k feet or you can't answer a simple question which is for which altitude you gave your performance figure. Which is it?

[Crumpp]

But anyway

 

Arent we getting off topic again. Sorry to consistently bring this up, when some go off topic.

 

A major difference i have found between the 109 and the 190 is the 190 is a lot faster, and much easier to fly for hours on a flight sim then the 109.

 

I would say the 190's ergonomic layout also makes it much easier in combat to read speed, Alt, temps, fuel and Vertical Speed. Whereas in the 109 the fuel gauge is covered by the flare gun and some temps are aswell.

 

In the mustang the single biggest problem i had with the cockpit was the throttle lever covering the altimeter.

 

The other differences i have found is gun sight in the 109 i personally find much more accurate then the dora. On a par with the mustangs K-14 gunsight.

 

You can really see Kurt Tanks experience as a pilot and mechanic in the FW190. Little details like the cowling becoming a scaffolding platform to work on the engine. The extensive use of cannon plugs and placement of access panels and inspection panels. You can remove the seat and side panels in about 15 minutes from an FW190.

 

The aircraft is designed to be easy to maintain under the austere conditions of a forward airstrip. The aircraft was even designed to minimize the effects of surface finish to reduce maintenance requirements at a forward operating base.

 

His piloting experience comes out in the ergonomics of the cockpit and the things you mentioned.

 

Edgar Schmued life is also reflected in the Mustang. Born in Germany but fled due the economic circumstances of 1920's, first moving to South America before settling in North America. A man who obviously looked to the horizon and unafraid of the new.

 

He reached for stars in the Mustang combining the most ambitious use of the meredith effect to date and newly discovered concept of laminar flow. Both concepts were relatively new and remain controversial in their practical application today. Laminar flow was literally just stumbled upon by aeronautical engineers trying to explain some puzzling properties Of the Davis Wing. The degree of success Schmued had in bringing these concepts to life is debatable. What is not debatable is the resulting design earned its place among the top fighter designs in the world.

 

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Marco_Pellegrini6/publication/253649721_The_bonus_of_aircraft_piston_engines_an_update_of_the_Meredith_effect/links/0046351fa125b4ad8a000000.pdf

 

Not to leave Willy Messerschmitt out but I have to go. Perhaps someone could share what up they know about the designers lives and how it influenced their aircraft.

[Pilum]

By definition EAS is always sea level.

 

http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Equivalent_Airspeed

 

Think of it as perfect indicated airspeed.

 

That answer your question Holtzauge or are you going to start your usual posting that you cannot use it?

 

Nope, EAS works fine as long as you use it correctly.

 

However, in the figure you posted for the Fw190A8 in post #63 one can read off 3.2 g’s at 165 knots EAS. At sea level this equates to a turn time of 17 s and such a sea level turn rate would be more reminicent of a Spitfire and certainly nothing a Fw190A8 would be capable of.

[Yob]

And why are you telling me?

 

Because when you refer to EAS you are automatically refering to sea level by default.

 

So although 165eas could be obtained at alt. when you say eas it automatically refers to sea level.

[Kurfürst]

I would say Willy Messerschmitt liked speed and was not very fond of weight in a fighter airplane. ;)

[Crumpp]

Nope, EAS works fine as long as you use it correctly.

 

However, in the figure you posted for the Fw190A8 in post #63 one can read off 3.2 g’s at 165 knots EAS. At sea level this equates to a turn time of 17 s and such a sea level turn rate would be more reminicent of a Spitfire and certainly nothing a Fw190A8 would be capable of.

 

 

Rate of turn = (1091 * tan 71.79) / 165 keas = 20 deg/

Edited December 19, 2014 by sobek

[Crumpp]

I would say Willy Messerschmitt liked speed and was not very fond of weight in a fighter airplane. ;)

 

Absolutely!

 

 

Willy Messerschmitt was described by his colleges as "ruthless" in his pursuit of what is called single point design.

 

He also had a great understanding of stability and control engineering. His relentless pursuit of speed led to the dangerous instability of the Me209. His longtime friend and colleague ege Fredrick Harth and him had a falling out over it in that Messerschmitt deliberately sacrificed pilot safety to achieve a world speed record that remained unchallenged for many years.

 

Mtt's record stood for 30 year and was finally broken by a highly modified F8F Bearcat in 1969.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Crumpp

[JtD]

Because when you refer to EAS you are automatically refering to sea level by default.

 

So although 165eas could be obtained at alt. when you say eas it automatically refers to sea level.

 

No, it refers to a dynamic pressure equivalent to that obtained at a speed at sea level. If I fly 165 knots EAS at 20k feet I'm not at sea level.

Edited December 19, 2014 by JtD

[bongodriver]

No, it refers to a dynamic pressure equivalent to that obtained at a speed at sea level. If I fly 165 knots EAS at 20k feet I'm not at sea level.

 

I would further this and say at 20K feet we are not at 165 Knots CAS or TAS either, TAS of course being more important for calculating a rate of turn.

[Rabbit_]

Check the manuals. :-)

[Yob]

No, it refers to a dynamic pressure equivalent to that obtained at a speed at sea level. If I fly 165 knots EAS at 20k feet I'm not at sea level.

 

Yea thats what is was trying to get accross. Sorry for my lack of communication skills.

 

lol.

 

But my point was if i said eas without giving a altitude, at least i would automatically think oh he is flying at sea level.

[bongodriver]

Yea thats what is was trying to get accross. Sorry for my lack of communication skills.

 

lol.

 

But my point was if i said eas without giving a altitude, at least i would automatically think oh he is flying at sea level.

 

it should make you think about any altitude other than sea level, at sea level the theory is that EAS=CAS=TAS as altitude increases these speeds diverge, in order for EAS to make sense an altitude must be given in order to determine the other speeds, TAS in particular being the one that is relevant to calculation of turn times and radius.

[Hadwell]

yeah lol like people constantly saying one plane has a better turn radius than another... well pretty much every plane of the same role in the same era has a better turning radius than any other plane, at their own best speeds and altitudes...

 

but what would be a more accurate thing to say is... what plane turns better than the other at the speed of the slowest (or plane with the most lift) of the two planes best turning speed.

[Crumpp]

bongodriver says:

TAS in particular being the one that is relevant to calculation of turn times and radius.

 

:music_whistling:

 

http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/turning/turnalt_wide_screen.pdf

[Crumpp]

Here we see the results of RAE turn performance testing. The data was collected at 12,000 feet and converted to EAS.

 

Knowing the EAS allows the information to be easily converted to other altitudes and atmospheric conditions outside of standard.

 

Pretty useful stuff if you know what to do with it.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Crumpp
Added Factored formula for EAS from TAS from David Rogers Paper

[Crumpp]

Yob says:

But my point was if i said eas without giving a altitude, at least i would automatically think oh he is flying at sea level.

 

Exactly. That is fundamental and one cannot possibly understand the mechanics of aircraft performance without realizing that. In college, you use it extensively for determining aircraft performance. Attached are some of the questions from one of my old college textbooks.

 

 

So, without an altitude the specific performance depicted occurs at sea level. The data is good for any altitude the reader chooses to convert for specific performance as long as the power does not change and they know how to convert it to get specific performance. In a supercharged engine, this will be to the Full Throttle Height.

 

The performance occurs at any altitude the power available does not change and the atmospheric effects are universal. You can see that on the RAE turn performance doghouse plot I posted previously. EAS simply represents a "slipping of the scale" at a constant altitude.

 

The other advantage is the speeds are very close to what the pilot will read on his airspeed indicator and for the purposes of flight sims, EAS = IAS at least in every one I have seen the code.

 

In short, it is extremely useful for examining a wide swath of an aircraft's performance at a glance to know the performance trends you should be seeing in the air.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Crumpp
added college textbook scan

[NineLine]

Guys, just for the benefit of some newer people to the fray... stay on topic, dont make it personal and if you dont get along with someone, add them to your ignore list, or show you are the bigger person and ignore them on your own, but none of this is helping the OP at all. If you guys cant get along, I can always start handing out Christmas bonus warning points... And Santa will end up bringing you a ban and a lump of coal for Christmas..

[Yob]

On that thought,

 

I thought i would say, i am finding in line with the post on dora or kufust rather enjoying the dora long range more the 109 now. i think it is becoming my favorite.

 

And Sorry JTD and Bongo for my lack of communication skills and understanding.

[NeilWillis]

Of course the main difference between the Dora, 109 and a pony is that both the Dora and 109 have less legs, but the same number of tails.

 

They don't eat carrots either.

 

Merry Xmas everyone!

 

:music_whistling::music_whistling: :music_whistling:

[Gooseneck]

What are the differences between the BF109, Dora, Pony?

 

Swastikas.

[harf4ng]

Hi,

I have a question about the FW 190.

Both the P51 and the 109 have the professional flight model.

The FW 190 on the description says "Advanced Flight Model"

 

So, what's the difference? Advanced flight model is between standard flight model (SU25) and PFM (PF51)?

 

Thanks

 

Edit: mmm when I check that :

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/faq/505/

 

I see that FW 190, BF 109 and P51D have PFM.

 

But here :

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/fr/products/planes/dora/

 

They sayf AFM, not PFM. So I don't understand...

Edited August 28, 2016 by harf4ng