mrmertz Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 ...just laying here thinking seeing alll of these bug issues, etc. What if ED announced to all of its contracted devs "Okay, for x amount of time one month, whatever, all devs will be required to shift from putting out new modules with new bugs and concentrate on 'playing catch up' and operated soley on nothing but squashing known bugs in existing modules in order to get the modules running as they should have been in the first place and up to speed. Once this has been satisfactory accomplished, work will then continue on new modules...ironically introducing new bugs no doubt but at least we will have dealt with issues that have been outstanding for some time now and result in greater end user satisfaction." Okay, I know there will be 30 or 40 post here flaming this (such as squashing bugs doesn't bring in immediate income - but it DOES say something about how committed a company is by standing behind its product and a commitment to customer satisfaction in the long run and future customer loyalty) but all it is is just a thought. Kind of like a spring cleaning day for the devs. And yes, it would mean delays on all the new toys for us but I think giving stability and the complaints seen here if people just had patience they would in the long run be happier with the modules already purchased without having to list all these problems anymore and simply have things work finally as they were originally intended to. Patience here seems to run short at times. I personally would rather wait and deal with a far more stable and superior product than have something pushed out the door for the sake of timeframe. Not to compare at all, I think the devs do a hell of a job, but let's hope they never approach the Micosoft syndrome of "screw it, it's haf baked, we know it, but marketing has already introduced our time frame release so publish it already. We'll worry about the 20 or 30 update patches later once it's in the consumers hands ala Windows ME." OMG. I hope they NEVER come close to their mentality. I don't see that they would, but OMG wer'e all doomed IF they ever did, but ED won't let that happen. Seem to run a pretty tight ship here. So congrats to that!
Nooch Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 It would be nice to see that. But I think they will reply with something concerning "cash flow issues". [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
winz Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 In SW development you always have to balance between bug fixing and new features, because bug fixing doesn't bring revenue. That's why you, unless the situation is really really critical (which isn't the case with DCS), don't assign all people to bugfixing. You also vastly underestimate how long it would take to fix all known bugs. And this fixing will for sure introduce new bugs. Also some new feature might be of bigger value to the player than some minor issue. edit: and you're not only dealing with ED but with 3rd party devs like belsimtek. The Valley A-10C Version Revanche for FC 3
Flagrum Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) What if ... I am not flaming you, but say that things often aren't that easy as you seem to picture them in your proposal? Software development is complex as such already and the product, DCS World, is especially complex in itself as well. Now what - these difficulties everyone has to face, eh? Right. But now, on top, there is the fact that they are in a very fundamental transistion phase which they have to deal with - in parallel to everything else. What they atm do is to add new storeys to a skyscraper, refurbish and renovate some of the existing ones while they are replacing the fundaments and seating of the building. And we complain about some noise and dust? edit: And these things can now not be serialized - if you stop working on any one of these tasks in order to get the other finished quicker, you will face other problems. EDGE must be finished asap because otherwise bug fixing and new developments have to be implemented twice, doubling the costs (if not more). Bug fixes must be done asap, otherwise the customers will run amok. New modules must be released because otherwise there is no income and 3rd party devs get pissed. Edited December 18, 2014 by Flagrum
mrmertz Posted December 18, 2014 Author Posted December 18, 2014 It would be nice to see that. But I think they will reply with something concerning "cash flow issues". Exactly. But boy it sure would be nice to just bite the bullet and get these modules up to speed where they should be in one swipe. Particularly, ATC issues, which for the most part a lot of people just seem to ignore on here altogether at times its that bad.
winz Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 Exactly. But boy it sure would be nice to just bite the bullet and get these modules up to speed where they should be in one swipe. Particularly, ATC issues, which for the most part a lot of people just seem to ignore on here altogether at times its that bad. You see, this is the problem. When you're talking about 'fixing ATC', then you're are, from sw development standpoint, no longer talking about bug fixing, but about a new feature development. Because the problem with ATC is not that it doesn't work, the problem is that it's very basic and its fidelity is totaly insufficient. There is nothing to fix, it has to be rewritten. The Valley A-10C Version Revanche for FC 3
mrmertz Posted December 18, 2014 Author Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) What if ... I am not flaming you, but say that things often aren't that easy as you seem to picture them in your proposal? Software development is complex as such already and the product, DCS World, is especially complex in itself as well. Now what - these difficulties everyone has to face, eh? Right. But now, on top, there is the fact that they are in a very fundamental transistion phase which they have to deal with - in parallel to everything else. What they atm do is to add new storeys to a skyscraper, refurbish and renovate some of the existing ones while they are replacing the fundaments and seating of the building. And we complain about some noise and dust? edit: And these things can now not be serialized - if you stop working on any one of these tasks in order to get the other finished quicker, you will face other problems. EDGE must be finished asap because otherwise bug fixing and new developments have to be implemented twice, doubling the costs (if not more). Bug fixes must be done asap, otherwise the customers will run amok. New modules must be released because otherwise there is no income and 3rd party devs get pissed. Agreed on EDGE, perhaps solve existing issues out there already such as visual contact (definitely needs improvement if anyone is going to dive into the pre-war BVR stuff in WW2) and perhaps will bring out new issues as well, but I like see it as a major step forward and able to unleash furthern capabilities not yet seen in DCS. So far as people complaining about the dust and such aka why is this taking so long, where's my new modules and what are all these stupid delays happening all of a sudden, I'd be in the minority then I guess. I'd take quality over quantity ANYDAY, unless I am mis-reading you sir. But then again, I must post that... 1. I'm NOT flaming DCS/ED at all here on their business modeling. I think the complexity and realism of DCS and the ability to plug in modules and still have them perform like they do is heads and shoulders way above anything else out there in the sim world and are truly made serving of praise as they now have me, the newcomer, supporting them... 2. I know bugs and software have been flowing together since the first sim ever came out. I know it's more or less at times like a dog chasing its tail. You solve one piece of the code and fix the bug, then the tail end introduces another problem unexpectedly somewhere else. Poor devs. Perhaps an all expenses paid cruise for a week or two at Kickstarter would help them to unwind and at least give them respite, though temporary, from all the complaints so they could just relax and enjoy life for a breathing moment as we do while flying their products? And no, I'm not being a smart ass here, but kind of tongue in cheek too. I realize it must not be a pleasant balancing act between solving old issues versus new plans. My hats are nonetheless off to them because I still think all the teams, third parties of course included are always working to do things within our best interest in mind which naturally should be true in any business base if you want to keep a customer base with loyalty AND continue by word of mouth to have that business grow. Was just thinking out loud some in my OP. And it's okay we agree to disagree here too! ;) Edited December 18, 2014 by mrmertz
mrmertz Posted December 18, 2014 Author Posted December 18, 2014 You see, this is the problem. When you're talking about 'fixing ATC', then you're are, from sw development standpoint, no longer talking about bug fixing, but about a new feature development. Because the problem with ATC is not that it doesn't work, the problem is that it's very basic and its fidelity is totaly insufficient. There is nothing to fix, it has to be rewritten. K...understood now. Let's re-write it. But again, since brand new here with DCS how important is their ATC interaction anyways? I hear lots of weird stuff happens. In MSFS it was quite critical.
Flagrum Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 ... Was just thinking out loud some in my OP. And it's okay we agree to disagree here too! ;) I don't really see us disagreeing here. Probably always and everywhere there are things that could be handled better, have room for improvement, etc. etc. But then there is also always the difference between theory and practise. Taking time and doing things "the right way" is a good theory. That is all I tried to say. :o) My hope is, that once EDGE/DCS:W 2 is released and the overall pressure isn't that high anymore, that ED will step back a bit and work on the backlog for a few months, stabilizing and also polishing the product a bit.
Flagrum Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 K...understood now. Let's re-write it. But again, since brand new here with DCS how important is their ATC interaction anyways? I hear lots of weird stuff happens. In MSFS it was quite critical. In MSFS they fly in circles around the airfield all day long. In DCS we fly in circles and bomb the hell out of everything all day long. Different priorities, I guess. :D
mrmertz Posted December 18, 2014 Author Posted December 18, 2014 I don't really see us disagreeing here. Probably always and everywhere there are things that could be handled better, have room for improvement, etc. etc. But then there is also always the difference between theory and practise. Taking time and doing things "the right way" is a good theory. That is all I tried to say. :o) My hope is, that once EDGE/DCS:W 2 is released and the overall pressure isn't that high anymore, that ED will step back a bit and work on the backlog for a few months, stabilizing and also polishing the product a bit. Now I like that idea! Get the heavy stuff done and completed THEN perhaps spend a little extra time going back and resolving older issues. Could work. Priorities, priorities. Lord knows we ALL deal with them on a daily basis in our own lives, let alone being paid to HAVE to deal with them on a full time basis as devs do. Respect all feedback to my post, as well as all others sir! Guess that's what posting should be based on to begin with anyways! Sometimes things get out of hand but everybody here seems very respectful and willing to help.
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