Radio trigger orbit question

[Trailer]

Hi guys, I've been looking for an answer for days and I still can't find precisely what I'm looking for.

 

I'm creating a mission where I'm flying low altitude and have a four ship of Eagles orbiting at a waypoint, waiting for my radio order to push from the waypoint and engage hostile aircraft. There are 7 waypoints and I'd like them to orbit at WP1, push when I call for them to push and continue flying their route. However, every time I call for them to push from the radio, they push and then immediately call that they are RTB.

 

How would you set this up with triggers? I'm obviously doing something wrong with my triggers, but I simply want them to continue flying their route even in the absence of hostile forces, yet they immediately RTB when they push. I can get them to orbit and set up the radio command, it's getting them to continue with their pre-planned mission that I'm having trouble with.

 

There should definitely be some sort of "continue mission" option for the WP options.

 

Thanks.

[baltic_dragon]

Try adding 'stop condition' to their orbit order in advanced waypoints menu (with flag from your radio command). They should continue to their next WP.

[Trailer]

I'm trying it right now and I'm still coming up with a constant RTB when pushed from the WP. Could you tell me the exact triggers and values you use?

 

The setup is like this:

 

Eagle flies to WP1 and orbits between WP1 and WP2

 

There's a trigger zone over WP1 that will add the Radio Push Command when the flight enters

 

When the flight is pushed, the button will disappear and the flight should proceed to WP3, but it just calls for RTB.

 

I think I've been doing it for so long and tried so many options that I don't even know if my triggers are messed up at this point. Is there a "standard" orbit push trigger?

Edited February 1, 2015 by Trailer

[Djent33]

I’ve made a little test mission to do that and it worked, then I added another radio item for them to stop what they were doing and RTB.

F-15 Trigger test.miz

[Trailer]

Great, thanks! I'll check it out and basically copy/paste it to mine...I need all the help I can get because I really want to do it well. Thanks again Djent.

 

EDIT: I just checked it and I think I know what I did wrong. When I gave the order to switch waypoints, I input Switch Waypoint to WPT 3 instead of WPT 7, and I bet that's why my fighters were RTB. Does that mean that if you want them to hold at a position until your call and then to continue on their route, you have to input the very last waypoint you want them to go to? Also, I don't know if this matters, but your fighters were on a fighter sweep mission and mine were CAP the entire time...maybe that had something to do with it, maybe not. I'll try to recreate what you've done and get back as soon as I find out. Thanks again!

Edited February 1, 2015 by Trailer

[Belgeode]

It should not matter if they were fighter sweep or CAP, as they are similar types of missions to the game.

 

Without seeing what Djent33 made, here is how I think you want it to go. Gonna quote you here, Trailer:

 

Eagle flies to WP1 and orbits between WP1 and WP2

 

There's a trigger zone over WP1 that will add the Radio Push Command when the flight enters

 

When the flight is pushed, the button will disappear and the flight should proceed to WP3, but it just calls for RTB.

 

Let's assume your flightplan for the waiting eagles has MORE than 3 waypoints.

 

Ok so the waiting flights all have orders to Orbit at their waypoint one. So when they get there they go into that. Their STOP CONDITION is if USER FLAG [5] is TRUE.

 

Your trigger zone is also around waypoint one and is big enough so that when you fly through you get an ADD RADIO ITEM "Push Flight", which sets flag 5 to 1 (true) (You could also send a message to your group that says "radio item is active" just to make sure it did in fact add your radio item.)

 

Now once this trigger has completed you can have a second trigger (which we will call "radio removal") which basically states if flag 5 is true, then remove radio item "Push Flight".

 

Now, notice we did NOT call for the waiting flight to switch waypoints. Why?

 

Well they are already at waypoint one, waiting for you to tell them to move on. They already have waypoint 2 cued up.

 

If you want them to go to waypoint 3 instead of their already scheduled waypoint 2, you will definitely have to add another ACTION trigger to "radio removal" that gives the action AI TASK PUSH ("waiting eagle" Switch waypoint > Waypoint 3). Make sure it is not telling them to go to their DP... that is their landing spot. So as long as User flag 5 is true, two things will happen... the radio item gets removed, and the waiting eagles switch to waypoint 3.

 

Provided you still have more waypoints to go before waiting eagles head to their base, you should not get an RTB.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Belgeode

[Trailer]

That's exactly how it's set up. However, as soon as they push from the point, they call RTB and head home autonomously.

 

The triggers work; they hold at their WP1 until I give the call to push and then they call that they're pushing and the button goes away in the radio menu. However, 3 seconds later they just call RTB. I'm beginning to think it's not the triggers, that there's some teeny tiny little box I haven't checked somewhere that's sending them home instead of continuing on with their flight plan.

 

Like I said, the triggers work like a charm, both with the STOP CONDITION method and the Triggered Actions SWITCH WAYPOINT method. It's not that I can't get them to push from the point, they simply don't continue along their route and instead snap to home plate.

 

I really don't understand why something as simple as orbiting at a point in a flight plan and then continuing along said flight plan once pushed is so complicated and obtuse in a mission editor. It's just odd to me that we have to jump through so many hoops to do even the simplest of tasks. I'm still working on it, though.

[Belgeode]

Is there a way you can post the mission here? Maybe we can look it over together.

 

There is definitely a glitch somewhere. Although...... I am just thinking about this. I have one mission where I have a Mi-8 being pushed to land and pick up some Spetsnaz troops, then head on its way... when it gets to the wp it should land at it calls for RTB... but does not ACTUALLY RTB... instead it does what it is supposed to do, land, wait for the push, then head to the next waypoint, which is already on the way home.

 

So maybe it is a radio issue? Did you follow them to see if they are actually going where they should be, or are they literally going home?

[Trailer]

They literally start heading for home.

 

I just tried inputting SWITCH WAYPOINT at every single waypoint and it worked, but from my understanding that shouldn't be necessary...or is it? It may be because there aren't any targets to attack, which is part of the plan because there's a trigger zone for the player which will trigger hostile aircraft pushing from their own respective points. Maybe it's a bug somewhere that no one noticed because usually people hold on IPs so they can push for ground attacks. Maybe no one has tried holding at a point for air-to-air, and since there were no immediate air-to-air targets, maybe the flight logic is to RTB. In any case I'll post it and let you take a look at it. The mission is a work-in-progress and I just got hung up when I started testing the triggers.

 

The way I test it is just turn on the electric power in the jet so I can hear their radio calls and then go to the map and accelerate time until about 38:50, which is usually when they call on station. Thanks so much for your help.

LowRadarSearch.miz

Edited February 1, 2015 by Trailer

[Belgeode]

OK let me kick the tires and light the fires, and see what I can see...

 

Standby.

 

 

Edit-

 

I am gonna update this post with whatever I find. First question I have for you. What is the purpose of waypoint 2 for the Eagles? I think if you took that out altogether then once they get the push order they should automatically cycle on to the current waypoint 3 (which would then be waypoint 2). That way you should not need the switch waypoint command at all.

 

Speaking of... I notice you have the switch waypoint commands in the advanced waypoint actions. Whenever I have used them I keep the command as a triggered action (the icon to the right of "Payload"). That way it can be called by your trigger to remove the radio item, like we discussed above.

 

But then, removing the current waypoint 2 would elminate the need to trigger any switching of waypoints. Ok wait... I see what you did. you set them up to racetrack between points 1 and 2. Ok that makes sense then.

 

 

 

Edit 2-

 

I just noticed something in your trigger RADIO REMOVE..

 

Under actions you have RADIO ITEM ADD FOR GROUP (16, Eagles RTB, 1, 1)

 

But in the RTB Remove you are checking to see if flag 2 is true. That could be where you are having your problems. It should be (16, Eagles RTB, 2, 1)

 

 

 

Edit 3-

 

I also notice you have the AI Task set for the migs to switch waypoints if the eagles/flankers get into response trigger zone. Is that working ok?

 

By the way that is a WICKED Su-27 camo. Is that custom or is that in the default skins?

Edited February 1, 2015 by Belgeode

[Trailer]

I had it like that because I was reading online last night about people setting it up the same way. In the beginning I had him just orbit in a circle over WP1 and then attempt to continue on after being pushed. In any case it had the same result: they went home. I'll go back to the way I had it for simplicity.

 

I usually put everything in the Triggered Actions until I noticed Djent's mission and he said it worked without RTB, so it was just a shot in the dark. In any case, I think you only need triggered actions for the triggers themselves, and from my understanding the STOP CONDITION eliminates the need for it. But then again, I'm lost as a goose in a snowstorm right now and will just take whatever works at this point.

 

EDIT to your edit: Ah! You're right!

 

While we're on the subject, could you explain to me how to use these flags? I understand what they are and what they do, but I kinda need it dumbed-down for me on their use and application for these triggers. IMO, ED could've done the exact same thing in a much easier and more user-friendly way. It's just confusing and convoluted for no reason.

 

From my understanding, flags are like a light switch that turns on whenever someone does something you've set. At this point, the light switch is "True" and you can do certain things only as long as this switch is "True", and those things must correspond with the "True" status or else they won't work.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Trailer

[Trailer]

OK let me kick the tires and light the fires, and see what I can see...

 

Standby.

 

 

Edit-

 

I am gonna update this post with whatever I find. First question I have for you. What is the purpose of waypoint 2 for the Eagles? I think if you took that out altogether then once they get the push order they should automatically cycle on to the current waypoint 3 (which would then be waypoint 2). That way you should not need the switch waypoint command at all.

 

Speaking of... I notice you have the switch waypoint commands in the advanced waypoint actions. Whenever I have used them I keep the command as a triggered action (the icon to the right of "Payload"). That way it can be called by your trigger to remove the radio item, like we discussed above.

 

But then, removing the current waypoint 2 would elminate the need to trigger any switching of waypoints.

 

 

 

Edit 2-

 

I just noticed something in your trigger RADIO REMOVE..

 

Under actions you have RADIO ITEM ADD FOR GROUP (16, Eagles RTB, 1, 1)

 

But in the RTB Remove you are checking to see if flag 2 is true. That could be where you are having your problems. It should be (16, Eagles RTB, 2, 1)

 

 

 

Edit 3-

 

I also notice you have the AI Task set for the migs to switch waypoints if the eagles/flankers get into response trigger zone. Is that working ok?

 

Yes, the MiGs are working correctly because they have a very simple trigger: anything hostile enters Zone X, they push from their holding points and attack. The fighter logic at that point takes over and their only job is to engage. Whatever happens after that is moot because they're either dead or I'm dead.

[Trailer]

Yes, that's stock skin...third one from the top on the loadout list and my favorite. I actually prefer the Ukrainian camo to the Russian.

 

EDIT: I was also wondering about the flag triggers if I added another allied group to hold...would I use Flag (1) again or do they have to go in order? In other words, since I have already used 2 flags, would it have to be Flag (3)?

 

EDIT2: If you want, you can completely re-do the triggers how you would do them. I'll take anything as long as it works. From my understanding, you can either have them push either from a triggered SWITCH WAYPOINT or set the trigger to turn the flag to true and get them to push through the STOP CONDITION in the orbit menu in the Advanced Waypoints menu. Personally, I prefer the SWITCH WAYPOINT and Triggered Actions like you mentioned, but I've been experimenting with this for a day now and I'll take anything at this point.

 

EDIT3: I just deleted the RTB call because it's unnecessary and I need to keep it simple for the time being until I get these push triggers down.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Trailer

[Belgeode]

 

While we're on the subject, could you explain to me how to use these flags? I understand what they are and what they do, but I kinda need it dumbed-down for me on their use and application for these triggers. IMO, ED could've done the exact same thing in a much easier and more user-friendly way. It's just confusing and convoluted for no reason.

 

From my understanding, flags are like a light switch that turns on whenever someone does something you've set. At this point, the light switch is "True" and you can do certain things only as long as this switch is "True", and those things must correspond with the "True" status or else they won't work.

 

Pretty much spot on. Flags are exactly like light switches. Logical light switches.

 

If Flag 1 is TRUE, this happens, otherwise this happens.

 

You can have as many flags as you want, but you gotta keep track of them. You CAN use one flag to control multiple groups, just make sure each group has their stop condition set to that same flag.

 

I just noticed something else here... your flight plans are reverse.

 

You have the Eagles flying out west then waiting at waypoint one... but then your flight plan has you going south past Beslan, and not catching up with the eagles till YOU are ready to RTB... is that supposed to be like that?

[Trailer]

Pretty much spot on. Flags are exactly like light switches. Logical light switches.

 

If Flag 1 is TRUE, this happens, otherwise this happens.

 

You can have as many flags as you want, but you gotta keep track of them. You CAN use one flag to control multiple groups, just make sure each group has their stop condition set to that same flag.

 

I just noticed something else here... your flight plans are reverse.

 

You have the Eagles flying out west then waiting at waypoint one... but then your flight plan has you going south past Beslan, and not catching up with the eagles till YOU are ready to RTB... is that supposed to be like that?

 

Yeah it's supposed to be like that. In the finished mission, threats will be hidden and your task is to do a flyover for a bit of visual recon over a suspected radar site. The success of this mission will be the prerequisite for the next mission, which will be an escort of SEAD and strike packages. The flight of eagles are there as a standard air defense CAP, much like killboxes for ground attacks we used to have in Iraq. When I was in the AF, I was a GCI controller and we would hold Hornets or Vipers or sometimes even Harriers in a CAP point in another kill box and wait for a TIC (troops in contact). Once air support was requested, we would push those fighters burning holes in the sky to either a FAC or a JTAC and then when they were done they would pass BDA to us and come back up on our freq and get back in their holding pattern. This is kinda like that only for air-to-air; they're there if I need them because I'm gonna be flying low and relatively slow, and if they have an ambush CAP set up on the other side of those mountains, I may be dead. The Eagles are positioned strategically there.

 

EDIT: Originally there was another four ship of Hornets in a CAP further to the west, but when I started having problems with the triggers I deleted them so as to simplify the problem as best I could until I figured out how to fix it.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Trailer

[Belgeode]

Ok I see, so they are your backup if things go south during your recon. Now it makes sense.

 

Ok here is what I have done so far, and it seems to be behaving itself.

 

1- Removed waypoint 2 from Eagles. Set them to Orbit "circle track" over waypoint one, listening for flag (1) to be true.

 

2- changed your radio remove so that RADIO ITEM ADD FOR GROUP (16, Eagles RTB, 2, 1) That way when you push eagles it does not get your second call confused with your first, which was what was happening.

 

3- Modified both migs to use AI TASK PUSH instead of AI TASK SET. I find I get better results with that command instead. Left the waypoint switching and the orbit parameters the same. Added stop condition for orbit when flag 9 is true. Flag 9 becomes true when Part of Coalition Blue is in Response Trigger zone.

 

4- Added to the migs the Option change of ROE= WEAPON FREE. I am not sure if you want them to be hostile if you are snooping around, but if you do, you'll need this to be triggered the same time they are triggered to head to the EWR area (waypoint 3). If you DO NOT want them to engage hostilities on your flight, or Eagle flight, then remove this option from triggered actions.

 

EDIT 5- Slightly moved response trigger zone a little north, so the migs have a fighting chance of catching the flight. Not much though.

 

So net result, it is still flying, but I have successfully been able to get the eagles to go from wp 1 where they are holding to waypoint 2, where the EWR is. Once they get in the zone, the Hostile Migs stop orbitting and head out to meet them. Meanwhile, I am safe and sound at home in my Su-27, eating a sammich at Mozdok. I'll add the revised mission in a second after I see if the eagles can live up to their sterling reputation.

 

Good luck Eagles!

Edited February 1, 2015 by Belgeode

[Belgeode]

Another edit... added AI TASK PUSH Eagles switch waypoint to waypoint 4 (Home plate). This is for the radio RTB that you have flag 2 set to. you had it listening for a flag two, but did not set the parameters for what happens when flag 2 is set to true.

 

So now what should happen is after you push the eagle flight south to help you out, and either you kill the migs or decide to run away, you will get a radio option to send eagle flight home whenever you want (I am assuming after your flight has gotten the mission accomplished message?)

Edited February 1, 2015 by Belgeode

[Trailer]

Yes! That's exactly what I'm looking for, thanks so much! Can you attach it so I can replace mine with yours? I'm still trying to keep everything straight with the triggers, and I'd like to use this as an example of how to set up push triggers. Thanks again!

[Belgeode]

Another minor edit. In your radio remove you had Eagle Push, instead of Eagles Push. It has to be the exact text you used for the radio add, or it will not remove it.

 

Ok try this on for size. I am gonna try flying it again to make sure it is doing what it should be, but I believe those edits should help the initial problem you had.

 

Now if only we could do something about AI's liberal use of afterburner...

LowRadarSearch.miz

Edited February 1, 2015 by Belgeode

[Trailer]

Another minor edit. In your radio remove you had Eagle Push, instead of Eagles Push. It has to be the exact text you used for the radio add, or it will not remove it.

 

Ah, thanks for that...didn't know I had the plural written. Was actually wondering that earlier.

 

EDIT: I just checked it and it looks great! Thanks so much. One last question (for now, hehe): why "Flag (9)"? What is the deal with the flag numbers, and why is this one 9? I've looked in the manual and it mentioned something about each number standing for certain things, but I've seen ppl build triggers with 60 and 70 before and I just don't understand how it works.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Trailer

[Belgeode]

Check the post above this one for the revised mission.

[Trailer]

Also, if I were to set up another set of fighters to CAP, would the flag be 3 for them since 1 is already taken by the Eagles and 2 is taken by the RTB in the same mission?

Edited February 1, 2015 by Trailer

[Belgeode]

The flag can be anything you want really as long as it is not a number you used before.

 

UNLESS... you specifically want to launch/ push multiple flights at the same time.

 

Now that I am playing it through again (I set everything to AI except I added myself as an observer in an Mi-8 at Beslan)... I notice one thing. The radio calls in the same trigger seem to be ab it problematic. Here's what I propose...

 

I am gonna take out the radio RTB out of its current spot, and make it trigger when the player gets the mission accomplished message. That way you have a choice right then and there to either engage the migs and call for back up, or bug out of there and tell the eagles to go home.

 

Will attach in a reply assuming it works.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Belgeode

[Belgeode]

Ok try this one on for size.

 

Edits made:

 

1- changed Radio Item Add for EAGLES RTB from where it was before (radio remove, switch wp) to (Mission Complete) So now what will happen is after you push Eagle flight, they come to your rescue but you will not see the option to send them RTB UNLESS you complete your mission. If you do not need them at all, they will circle forever and when you get your mission complete you will see two options, 1- push them to wp 2, or 2- send them RTB. Either will work, but if you push them to wp 2, it will trigger the enemy.

 

2- Enemy is set to weapons free if triggered by player or eagles being in the response zone. They WILL prosecute. (They kicked my butt a couple times now). Enemy is also set to weapons hold if you decide to cut and run, and also give eagles the order to cut and run... that way they should not chase you all over russia for having a look at their naughty toys.

 

3- used command RADIO ITEM ADD instead of RADIO ITEM ADD FOR GROUP. The way I see it... and correct me if wrong, if this is to be a single player mission... you are the only one who will ever see the radio item. add for group sounds to me like it would be if you had multiple player groups and wanted only one group to have a radio option at that time.

 

 

Ok download this version, and let me know how it works for you. So far this has been a fun little mission that has really tested my Su-27 defensive skills.

LowRadarSearch.miz

Edited February 1, 2015 by Belgeode

[Trailer]

Wow, you're really going all out, thanks a bunch! I'll check it out and report back. I'm still going through the trigger actions to sort of memorize/learn them and to try and figure out the logic of the ME.

 

Yep, this mission is part of my campaign that I'm building, and I'm pretty much a stickler for realism unless it gets in the way of enjoyment. However, I'm trying to strike a balance between the fun and the real because I can't stand campaigns where you have to jump through arbitrary hoops to finish the mission. Mine are gonna be, "you complete your task and your mission is complete". No Eagles winding through mountain passes as if they were strikers on a strike mission, trying to fly in low to take out a Russian AWACS with Su-27 escort at altitude. "Oh look, I've got 5 AMRAAMskis in my face as I'm trying to come out of the weeds and get some altitude, how nice." It's like they're trying to make you ragequit.

 

However, neither do I shy away from a little challenge even if the mission is a simple and straightforward one. Yes, those MiGs don't necessarily have the SA or the upper hand at the start, but if you screw around down there long enough, they'll schwack you. The choice is up to the pilot: do you dilly dally and see what they have in store for you or do you complete the mission quickly with little action or fanfare and RTB? All my missions in this campaign are going to have a sort of duplicitous simplicity to it, meaning that they can either be really easy or really hard just by how far you're willing to go if you decide to go above and beyond. They will all be very straightforward and simple, with a few surprises here and there. The biggest thing I want is to make sure the employment of forces is feasible and realistic. In other words, certain packages behaving like they should. Air Force assets not behaving like Navy assets; the Navy is more of a roving biker gang than a geographical footprint. Therefore, you won't have Hornets (from the carrier) flying CAP over Mozdok, Viper drivers operating like Eagle drivers and such, or the Kutz battling it out with an entire carrier battle group. Of course I want it to be entertaining so I'm trying to be as inventive as possible, but I want to keep the roles as realistic as I can.

 

Did you find my little ground surprise around WP 3? That story will continue in the next mission.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Trailer