I am unhappy with ASP

gezahu · February 16, 2015

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Edited February 21, 2015 by gezahu

xxJohnxx · February 16, 2015

Hi,

This has been discussed here on the forums a couple of times. However, most discussion ended in nothingness, because nobody could actually provide sufficient documentation for the stuff it is supposed to do.

Would be nice if you can give us some sources for the improvements you suggest, technical manuals, descriptions and the like, sure would be helpful to not just us, but also the devs!

:thumbup:

ttaylor0024 · February 17, 2015

Allow me to direct you to the most recent, large flame war on the topic.

gezahu · February 17, 2015

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Edited February 21, 2015 by gezahu

gezahu · February 17, 2015

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Edited February 21, 2015 by gezahu

gezahu · February 17, 2015

Well the reason why this is particularly annoying is that the ASP can show distance when firing GROM or attacking ground target (even when radar is off as far as I remember), but when it is really needed it fails :(

Teo · February 17, 2015

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2314647&postcount=1

Especially this:

Additionally; we're ccurrently working on fixing some incorrect ballistic calculations related to the ASP gunsight pipper. We hope that these will be ready in time for the next scheduled DCSW update.

gezahu · February 17, 2015

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Edited February 21, 2015 by gezahu

ttaylor0024 · February 18, 2015

It is not only about ballistics. The other problem is that the ASP is not getting and indicating ranging from the radar at locked targets between 600-2000m away.

If they correct the thing analogue to the ground mode "bug" where ranging is indicated even with switched off radar, we could be in a big trouble when flying a real MIG :)

To put it simple it should be like this:

1. in manual mode the range is at 300m, which can be changed by the distance knob to 2000 and the ballistics should be accurate
2. in auto mode the radar ranges to the LOCKED target between 600-2000m, when lock is lost or target comes close the range is set to 600.

Obviously with ASP working correctly it is highly advisable to dogfight in beam mode and lock the target when opportunity arises trying to position for shooting.

If I remember correctly, the radar does not couple with the gunsight. This isn't the sabre. Also, goodluck hitting stuff at 2000m in a dogfight. If you would pull the smallest of G the gunsight you wouldn't even have the gunsight on your hud.

The moving reticle is a little buggy, but in reality is not as bad as you guys are making it out to be. It's pretty easy to be accurate with it. If you don't like that your sight isn't moving correctly, use the backup, that's what it's there for.

You can't expect everything to be fully functional when it still has the beta tag on it. Just put the sight in auto and leave it off of gyro mode and it works perfectly. While they fix the known issues with the aircraft, learn to really fly it. The -21 isn't very good until you learn how to fly on the knife edge at 27-32* AOA.

xxJohnxx · February 18, 2015

If I remember correctly, the radar does not couple with the gunsight. This isn't the sabre. Also, goodluck hitting stuff at 2000m in a dogfight. If you would pull the smallest of G the gunsight you wouldn't even have the gunsight on your hud.

Actually alot of the documentation as well as a lot articles about the aircraft mention that even the early concept and aerodynamics test aircraft could use the radar for air to air gunfight range calculation.

MBot · February 18, 2015

The moving reticle is a little buggy, but in reality is not as bad as you guys are making it out to be. It's pretty easy to be accurate with it. If you don't like that your sight isn't moving correctly, use the backup, that's what it's there for.

...

Just put the sight in auto and leave it off of gyro mode and it works perfectly.

I don't understand how you can both say that the sight isn't moving correctly as well as that it works perfectly. Either the sight works and it indicates where the shots go, or it doesn't work and the shots go somewhere else. It is clearly the second, which the LNS have acknowledged and are working to fix.

ttaylor0024 · February 18, 2015

I don't understand how you can both say that the sight isn't moving correctly as well as that it works perfectly.

Gyro mode isn't working correctly, but fixed is what I use anyway, in which works great.

NeilWillis · February 18, 2015

Gezahu, I find your comments about Leatherneck rather unnecessary to say the least.

You are, I am sure, fully aware that the module in question is still in Beta. This means that not all systems are currently implemented correctly, and the module is a work in progress.

If you're not happy paying out money on a plane with systems that don't fully meet the required criteria, then might I suggest you wait until the final iteration is released, read the comments others make on the forum, and if you don't like what you see, then decide whether it is beneath you to buy it or not!

As stated here, and elsewhere, Leatherneck are aware of issues regarding the ASP, and it has been discussed elsewhere.

Wind your neck in, and be a little more patient. If a topic has already been discussed, and you don't have anything to add but criticism, then why start a new thread?

GorT · February 18, 2015

Gezahu, I find your comments about Leatherneck rather unnecessary to say the least.

You are, I am sure, fully aware that the module in question is still in Beta. This means that not all systems are currently implemented correctly, and the module is a work in progress.

If you're not happy paying out money on a plane with systems that don't fully meet the required criteria, then might I suggest you wait until the final iteration is released, read the comments others make on the forum, and if you don't like what you see, then decide whether it is beneath you to buy it or not!

As stated here, and elsewhere, Leatherneck are aware of issues regarding the ASP, and it has been discussed elsewhere.

Wind your neck in, and be a little more patient. If a topic has already been discussed, and you don't have anything to add but criticism, then why start a new thread?

^^+1^^

Farlander · February 18, 2015

Gezahu, I find your comments about Leatherneck rather unnecessary to say the least.

You are, I am sure, fully aware that the module in question is still in Beta. This means that not all systems are currently implemented correctly, and the module is a work in progress.

If you're not happy paying out money on a plane with systems that don't fully meet the required criteria, then might I suggest you wait until the final iteration is released, read the comments others make on the forum, and if you don't like what you see, then decide whether it is beneath you to buy it or not!

As stated here, and elsewhere, Leatherneck are aware of issues regarding the ASP, and it has been discussed elsewhere.

Wind your neck in, and be a little more patient. If a topic has already been discussed, and you don't have anything to add but criticism, then why start a new thread?

No! he discovered something that was wrong with the aircraft, and went to the forums to report it. He payed for the plane and wants it to be as good as possible. Even devlopers want their customers to report problems, and if a company cant take criticism from a costumer about something faulty then i dont think they are suited for the job.

If you're not happy paying out money on a plane with systems that don't fully meet the required criteria, then might I suggest you wait until the final iteration is released.

This i didnt really understand... Yes, i think that if you buy a beta product you cant expect that everything is perfect. But finding them, reporting them and fixing them is also a part of beta. If nobody reported bugs, then the devlopment would be much slower.

I think most of us like the MiG-21 and leatherneck, but lets not get "fanboyish" and defend them on problems that they need to solve.

Well... Thats my opinion at least.. :thumbup:

EDIT: I agree that there is no need to start a new thread though

WinterH · February 18, 2015

The thing is, this has been discussed in 3 or may be 4 threads, and to best of my knowledge and memory, no one has been able to conlusively proven that current way ASP work is wrong.

So, I am inclined to believe implementation done by the active duty MiG-21Bis pilot, unless someone can confront that with concrete evidence.

Farlander · February 18, 2015

The thing is, this has been discussed in 3 or may be 4 threads, and to best of my knowledge and memory, no one has been able to conlusively proven that current way ASP work is wrong.

So, I am inclined to believe implementation done by the active duty MiG-21Bis pilot, unless someone can confront that with concrete evidence.

Ok, didnt know it had been discussed that much.

gezahu · February 18, 2015

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Edited February 21, 2015 by gezahu

gezahu · February 18, 2015

You will not be able to implement all systems it is a vague expectation. Simulating the radar itself at high fidelity wold take a full high horsepower PC on its own. I also dont expect to see a fully implemented ECM for that matter. The mathematics of fuel use is extremely complicated also. There are numerous simplifications in the sim, otherwise it would not take 2-3 years to learn to fly the real thing :) Seeing the tremendous effort taken to perfect seemingly minor details (wing thickness, placing of antennas) I do not understand why fixing such a crucial part as a ASP is being discussed only now.

gezahu · February 18, 2015

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Edited February 21, 2015 by gezahu

gezahu · February 18, 2015

Those treads are full of rubbish.

gezahu · February 18, 2015

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Edited February 21, 2015 by gezahu

GorT · February 18, 2015

Please Gezahu, slow down with the constant forum posts else a mod might consider it all spam.

xxJohnxx · February 18, 2015

I do not understand why fixing such a crucial part as a ASP is being discussed only now.

It is not only been discussed now, but has been discussed several times. The devs even mentioned some upcoming changes in the last change log, so you might actually want to wait for the changes to be implemented into the sim with the next update.

Flagrum · February 18, 2015

I am an aviation mechanic. Pilots do not have a clue what those shiny dots supposed to do and how they work believe me :) I happen to speak Russian too and have a quite deep knowledge of the russian aviation technology by my ex profession (it is true that from mechanical side, and the ASP is an electric thingy). But you dont have to have a russian manual, because the translated real one also is clear about the matter -even for me a non native english speaker-. The manual/auto switch selects the input for the ASP to put it simple. In manual mode you update the the distance in auto the radar. It is wrong that the reticle is "fixed" at 300m, it is not, fixed it is simply its closest setting, it is the minimum safe firing distance. After you set the wingspan you should see the plane fit at 300m to the diamond circle, but when you increase distance manually the diamond circle should shrink (as it does) and guess what at the set distance the plane should fit just fine to the diamond circle. It is can used in reverse to "guesstimate" distance. You set the known wingspan, lay the ring on the target (manual mode) with the distance dial and you read the distance.

I think, the consent on the forums is in fact that the ASP should take the radar ranging into account for A2A engagements in AUTO mode. It would be only logical and what you wrote there makes quite some sense from that standpoint. But still, it seems that this is not documented in the sources we have available - or at least up to now nobody could really point it out in a conclusive manner. And that is just the "gold standard" of DCS: conclusive primary sources. We all can "feel" and "know" all we want - the devs (and in general their customer base) demand objectivity.

I browsed the US "MiG-21 bus - Pilot's Flight Operation Instructions" and found some statements that explain the use of the ASP in AUTO mode for A2G use where the radar ranging was explicitely mentioned. In other cases it explains the MANUAL mode for A2G and A2A. And it mentions a fixed range mode (for A2A only? idk). But up to now I was unable to find the place where it details the functioning of automatic ranging in A2A gun employments.

It might be hidden somewhere there, it might be (wrongly) omitted in that manual, I don't know. Probably me being not too experienced in russian aviation tech and also not an english native speaker does not help the case either ...

But if it is in there, we need to find it - to have an objective proof for our claims.

PS: please quote the postings you are replying to - it makes it easier to follow the course of the thread. ;o)

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