Solty Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Scroll down to pg 78 http://www.scribd.com/doc/34811808/North-American-P-51-Mustang-Pilot-Training-Manual#scribd So? Don. Bryan did it :). I say he knows what he did. It is hard to mistake a snap roll for any other maneuver. Same I think Richard Candaleria used it to shoot down a 109 that was behind him. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo38 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) Scroll down to pg 78 http://www.scribd.com/doc/34811808/North-American-P-51-Mustang-Pilot-Training-Manual#scribd Same deal. "This has been proven by a long series of test flights." How many? By the same pilot? Same I think Richard Candaleria used it to shoot down a 109 that was behind him. Hmm, when I read Candaleria's description, it looked to me more like he was describing a wingover or hammerhead, but it was a little vague. I suppose it could be interpreted as a snap-roll. Edited December 1, 2015 by Echo38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectrum Legacy Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Have you tried the lag displacement rolls? It seems to work very well in DCS offline. It puts the Dora pilot in a position you do not have to worry about accounting for the radius, offsets the angles, and allows your Rate advantage to eat up an opponent. Regarding the EZ42 gunsight, you are right...once you figure it out, I guess it's great when it suddenly clicks together and works consistently. I just struggled quite a lot with it, compared to the fixed version at least or the standard Revi, no matter how much I fine-tuned the wingspan, distance or altitude compensator. Reason might be not very precise axis assigned or it might be just me being used to the fixed net / iron sights as opposed to predictor... Old habits die hard! ;) Speaking of habits, I've picked quite a few bad ones on the jets it seems...at least I'm slightly struggling now after 8 months without Dora. The excellent-skilled AI FM pulls some crazy feats, but yeah as you said earlier: lag pursuit, aileron rolls, barrel rolls, yo-yos, scissors... all helps to keep the angry AI pony on the leash. I just can't yet decide the encounter fast enough. Need more practice I reckon, to get the feel for Dora back. Snaprolls I always considered as one of the last possibilities in the encounter too, not your everyday manoeuvre for sure, though some planes power through them bravely ... However I think that the original designers of these wonderful airframes would be blown away if they only knew what we do with the digital versions here :joystick: Sent from my pComputer using Keyboard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpp Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpp Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) Hmm, when I read Candaleria's description, it looked to me more like he was describing a wingover or hammerhead, but it was a little vague. I suppose it could be interpreted as a snap-roll. Most likely the reader is misinterpreting something rather Cpt Bryan was able to perform something counter to the aerodynamics of the design. Edited December 1, 2015 by Crumpp Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpp Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Regarding the EZ42 gunsight, you are right...once you figure it out, I guess it's great when it suddenly clicks together and works consistently. I just struggled quite a lot with it, compared to the fixed version at least or the standard Revi, no matter how much I fine-tuned the wingspan, distance or altitude compensator. Reason might be not very precise axis assigned or it might be just me being used to the fixed net / iron sights as opposed to predictor... Old habits die hard! ;) Speaking of habits, I've picked quite a few bad ones on the jets it seems...at least I'm slightly struggling now after 8 months without Dora. The excellent-skilled AI FM pulls some crazy feats, but yeah as you said earlier: lag pursuit, aileron rolls, barrel rolls, yo-yos, scissors... all helps to keep the angry AI pony on the leash. I just can't yet decide the encounter fast enough. Need more practice I reckon, to get the feel for Dora back. Snaprolls I always considered as one of the last possibilities in the encounter too, not your everyday manoeuvre for sure, though some planes power through them bravely ... However I think that the original designers of these wonderful airframes would be blown away if they only knew what we do with the digital versions here :joystick: I agree. Yo-Yo has done a great job. I would have loved to be in the room when Eric first tried out the Dora! :thumbup: Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solty Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Most likely the reader is misinterpreting something rather Cpt Bryan was able to perform something counter to the aerodynamics of the design. LOL. He says that to the camera on one of the shows :D https://youtu.be/YBLjYGLlklo?t=4m32s "They didn't snap roll with me, so they went off" :P [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpp Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Cpt Bryan says, "You pull the stick back and add some bottom rudder..." Yes, that is the correct control input for a snap roll.... Cpt Bryan finishes off the sentenece by saying, "AND you do a spin." Which what the Operating Instructions, USAAF Training manuals, and the aerodynamics say will happen in the P51D too. You sure this isn't more selective listening, Solty? "You will invariably wind up in a power spin." - Warning found in all P-51D material regarding snap rolls. I think there was misinterpretation on the History channels part. Of course we know that never happens! I am sure they did not misinterpret Col. Richard Candelaria either! :megalol: [ame] [/ame] Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solty Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Then he talks about another instance during the same fight where he let's the p51 drop into a spin, which he calls a inverted vertical reversment. So those two snap roll types seem possible. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester_ Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Same I think Richard Candaleria used it to shoot down a 109 that was behind him. I know what you are referring to. Candelaria used a wingover maneuver. The animation on that episode of dogfights is a little exaggerated; there is no way he stalled the wing and turned his aircraft 360 degrees in about 20 feet. But it was a really just a wingover. Which is kind of a prelude to snap rolling anyway when you think about it. You are just pulling around instead of continuing the roll. edit: hey someone posted the video, nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solty Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I know what you are referring to. Candelaria used a wingover maneuver. The animation on that episode of dogfights is a little exaggerated; there is no way he stalled the wing and turned his aircraft 360 degrees in about 20 feet. But it was a really just a wingover. Which is kind of a prelude to snap rolling anyway when you think about it. You are just pulling around instead of continuing the roll. edit: hey someone posted the video, nice. Show depicts some weird maneuver, but I think I've read that he later said that what he did was a snap roll [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectrum Legacy Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 hey someone posted the video, nice. Aye that video is epic, especially past the 1:37 mark :megalol: History in the making material for future generations no doubt, since we have less and less WW2 veterans each day... Speaking of which I would love to see the remaining parts of Revisiting the Dora with Erich! That would make an excellent Christmas present, if I may say so myself. Sent from my pComputer using Keyboard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekg Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Can anyone post a track of the instant action dogfight from DCS 1.5? I've been doing it for about a week and the best I can get is go head-on with the mustang. I can never seem to get on his 6 and I'm pretty sure the AI would simply out turn me. I occasionally lose sight of the ai and then it's on my 6. When this happens I just dive to reach about 500-600 km/h to get distance and then when it's far away enough do a hard turn. Usually works to regain some parity in the situation. Climbing when I'm far way with the mustang on my 6 gets me shot. As far as high speed and low speed turns what values are those for the dora and mustang respectively? I find that at 400 km/h or 500 km/h turn I still get hit. I've also stalled and crashed a few times (it's hard to search for the bandit and look at the speed the same time). Usually stall somewhere less than 350 kph. Edited December 2, 2015 by ekg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester_ Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Can anyone post a track of the instant action dogfight from DCS 1.5? I've been doing it for about a week and the best I can get is go head-on with the mustang. I can never seem to get on his 6 and I'm pretty sure the AI would simply out turn me. I occasionally lose sight of the ai and then it's on my 6. When this happens I just dive to reach about 500-600 km/h to get distance and then when it's far away enough do a hard turn. Usually works to regain some parity in the situation. Climbing when I'm far way with the mustang on my 6 gets me shot. As far as high speed and low speed turns what values are those for the dora and mustang respectively? I find that at 400 km/h or 500 km/h turn I still get hit. I've also stalled and crashed a few times (it's hard to search for the bandit and look at the speed the same time). Usually stall somewhere less than 350 kph. From what I understand and have been told (I don't know if this is 100% true though) the AI in DCS uses simple flight models, so it's trivial for them to maintain perfect flight performance right on the knife edge of their aircraft. It's kind of the reason why the P-51 can take 5+ 30mm shots from a 109, and suffer no performance loss whatsoever. But again, I'm not 100% sure about that claim. I'm just repeating what I've heard elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpp Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 As far as high speed and low speed turns what values are those for the dora and mustang respectively? About 360 Kph IAS for the Dora and 200 mph IAS for the Mustang for best Rate of Turn speeds. Rate kills. This is because a fighter with a better turn rate you can out turn a fighter with a tighter turn radius! http://vnfa2.tripod.com/FA-18_BFM2.html Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpp Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 best I can get is go head-on with the mustang. Look at the diagram above... If the Mustang is able to get head to head with you...you do not have a turn rate advantage. Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solty Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Crump why do you insist on turning? The 190 can force a head on, pushing the 51 into defensive. If the 51 pilot turns towards the 190, he is toast. Because all u have to do is pull up into a steep climb with full power, do a hammerhead and keep on the vertical plain booming and zooming him till he is dead or you make another mistake. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpp Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Here is what it looks like when Rate of Turn is higher than radius. Your opponent cannot get a head on shot and you are more than 180 degrees ahead of his flight path. Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpp Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I made a track but have not posted it because of the "track bug". Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceBurner Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 stay with it, for someday one future player will be coming to you for this advice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plaiskool Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 By getting your ass kicked...again again and again until you understand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 (edited) The 109 is still in beta. The smoke trails on the German planes were already reported, and whatever is causing it will certainly be patched... I don't think this is directly related to the flight dynamics themselves, and in that area, what else do we actually have, better than DCS World ? Not saying it is perfect, nor do I have the detailed knowledge about each model to be able to base my claim in, but very close to matching the real counterparts, and some of the models still being fine tuned, that is for sure, at least IMO... Yes: I did take the ED / DCS pills and see Yo-Yo's everywhere around me with performance tables in the walls.... 1.5.1, and now EDGE 2.0 Alpha and the Nevada Terrain sold me completely to this platform :-) There are still aspects I would like to see addressed, but overall, it feels so good already the way it is... specially for me who couldn't even care less about dogfighting in ww2 aircraft over Las Vegas .... provided the flight and overall physics modeling feels good / plausible. Really ? You didn't say "What else do we actually have better than DCS World" on the other forum. Edited December 5, 2015 by otto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo38 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Be fair; that was four months ago, and he's had several discussions with Yo-Yo since then. Jcomm has since then recanted his heresy and returned to the fold. Right, Jcomm? [holds up torch] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 (edited) Aircraft spoting has been improved since 1.5 . It's so rewarding when you spot a contact like this.Make a big difference in how a dogfight is started. 1 2 1 2 This is Jcomm seen from 5000 m. Edited December 5, 2015 by otto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 (edited) Exactly! Jcomm has always conducted himself with honor, honest, and strikes me as a seeker of truth. The ability to question drives progress. Like everyone else, He has the right to express his opinion and to change his mind. His actions are nothing more than the actions of a reasonable person. Whether you mean to or not Otto, it is not valid to try and assassinate his character or cast him in an unfavorable light for doing that. Discuss the issue and not the person. On 29 september 2015 : He posts on this forum "Stop complaining guys" Rudder improvements to k4.... " What more can we ask for". On 3 October 2015 he posts "Trying DCS1.5 ..." "I still prefer Bos by far " On the bos forum . On 6 October 2015 on this forum : You couldn't make this stuff up. Edited December 5, 2015 by otto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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