Hummingbird Posted March 29, 2015 Author Posted March 29, 2015 Aaand another.. The praise of the F-14's exceptional turning capability is repeated rather frequently, as for example in the section from 25:00 min to 26:43 min in this video.
lunaticfringe Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 In the first video, if you've ever read "Hawk" Smith's bio Roger Ball, the instructor in the orange flight suit (Mike) is "Mauler"- the same guy he beat with the soft wing A-4 as TOPGUN CO, having ordered the lock bolts removed, giving the Mongeese back everything Douglas engineered into them, much to Mauler's chagrin. 1
Hummingbird Posted March 30, 2015 Author Posted March 30, 2015 In the first video, if you've ever read "Hawk" Smith's bio Roger Ball, the instructor in the orange flight suit (Mike) is "Mauler"- the same guy he beat with the soft wing A-4 as TOPGUN CO, having ordered the lock bolts removed, giving the Mongeese back everything Douglas engineered into them, much to Mauler's chagrin. I haven't read it and I'm afraid I need a clarification :P Did Hawk beat Mauler in an A-4 on A-4 showdown because of a modification? :)
Hummingbird Posted March 30, 2015 Author Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) No. A-4 vs F-14 showdown. Ok, how so? :) PS: Remember reading about some of the modded A-4s used as aggressor featuring a TW ratio of over 1:1 because of extensive lightening :shocking: They were some real hotrods some of them, perfect for teaching ACM :) PS: PS: I now understand what you mean by removing the bolts in the wings. The aggressor A-4's apparently had their slats bolted shut to better simulate MiG-17 & 21 characteristics (the A-4 was still more maneuverable than either with this mod however), thus removing much of its slow speed prowess. Edited March 30, 2015 by Hummingbird
lunaticfringe Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 Kindle: $5. Awesome book. http://www.amazon.com/ROGER-BALL-ODYSSEY-MONROE-FIGHTER/dp/1605280054
BlackLion213 Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 Kindle: $5. Awesome book. http://www.amazon.com/ROGER-BALL-ODYSSEY-MONROE-FIGHTER/dp/1605280054 I second that, great read. Lots of things besides the F-14, read all about the mighty F-4 phantom getting it's ass kicked by French Mystere/Super Mystere fighters in an exercise back in 1966. Part of it was that the French cheated, but it really highlighted the importance of dissimilar combat training. A lot of things changed in the USN after the 1960s. In any case, definitely worth picking up. -Nick
Hummingbird Posted March 30, 2015 Author Posted March 30, 2015 Read some excerpts, a great book indeed :) Also highlights the difficulties with the TF-30 engines, making some of the trials difficult. Interestingly the F-14 was capable of out pitching the MiG-17 and beat it in a flat scissors, this is incredible considering that the MiG-17 is a ~40 lbs/sq.ft. wing aircraft :shocking: Unsurprisingly the F-14 completely trounced the MiG-21 in both ITR & STR, whilst being only slightly faster in climb and accleration.
Invisibull Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 Kindle: $5. Awesome book. http://www.amazon.com/ROGER-BALL-ODYSSEY-MONROE-FIGHTER/dp/1605280054 Buy now with one click? Umm, Yeah. Thanks for the recommendation. :) i9 9900k - GTX 2080 Ti - MSI Z87 GD65 Mobo - 64GB HyperX Predator RGB DDR4 3200MHz - Win10 64 bit - TM Warthog w FSSB R3 mod - TrackIr 5.
Solty Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 Aaand another.. The praise of the F-14's exceptional turning capability is repeated rather frequently, as for example in the section from 25:00 min to 26:43 min in this video. Well, they were preping those guys to fight MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-25 and MiG-31 which are not particularly good at sustained turning. Read some excerpts, a great book indeed Also highlights the difficulties with the TF-30 engines, making some of the trials difficult. Interestingly the F-14 was capable of out pitching the MiG-17 and beat it in a flat scissors, this is incredible considering that the MiG-17 is a ~40 lbs/sq.ft. wing aircraft Unsurprisingly the F-14 completely trounced the MiG-21 in both ITR & STR, whilst being only slightly faster in climb and accleration. Maybe MiG17 pilot didn't know ACM..., or just the pure thrust from F-14 is much better and probably made the difference. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA
captain_dalan Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 Don't mess around with a well flown A-4 in a one circle, or can find yourself out of knots and out of flight time very soon :thumbup: Those buggers are incredibly nimble. Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache
BlackLion213 Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 Well, they were preping those guys to fight MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-25 and MiG-31 which are not particularly good at sustained turning. Maybe MiG17 pilot didn't know ACM..., or just the pure thrust from F-14 is much better and probably made the difference. The MiG-17 was flown by a very experienced US pilot, the MiG-17 and MiG-21 were both part of "Operation Constant Peg" and both aircraft were acquired in the late 1960s. The pilot was very capable and knew the aircraft well. It was more a reflection of the Tomcat's superior high AOA performance and ITR. The MiG-17 proved to have a better STR and did much better in a one-circle fight (just like the Super Fox that Captain Dalan is referencing), but in the flat scissors it had trouble sticking with the Tomcat. Also, you hit another good point. I don't think it accurate to characterize the MiG-21 and MiG-23 as bad in a turning battle (MiG-25 and MiG-31 - yes, not particularly agile). However, they were not nearly as good as the American 4th generation fighter. The Tomcat was based entirely on Tech from the 1960s, yet it was much more capable in ACM than ANY of it's expected competitors. Even with the lousy TF30. True, the Soviets would develop excellent dogfighters in the MiG-29 and Su-27, but by the time those aircraft were operational we had the F-14A+/B, the F-15C, F/A-18C, etc. We managed to keep ahead of the curve. The Tomcat was eclipsed in the ACM category by new fighters that sported newer tech (DFCS, relaxed static stability, better engines). Of course, none of these other aircraft met the Navy's operational requirement for a fighter, so it's a moot discussion. However, the Tomcat did manage to keep ahead of it's real potential adversaries throughout it's operational life, even in the phone booth. -Nick
Zooker Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 Ok, how so? :) PS: Remember reading about some of the modded A-4s used as aggressor featuring a TW ratio of over 1:1 because of extensive lightening :shocking: They were some real hotrods some of them, perfect for teaching ACM :) PS: PS: I now understand what you mean by removing the bolts in the wings. The aggressor A-4's apparently had their slats bolted shut to better simulate MiG-17 & 21 characteristics (the A-4 was still more maneuverable than either with this mod however), thus removing much of its slow speed prowess. Did I misunderstand the book? My take away from this part of the book was the A-4 with the slats bolted up, was not as close a representation of the Mig-17 & 21, as an A-4 with the slats operational? VF-111 Sundowners [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Carrier Group 1 - Battlegroup Delta Beware the lessons of a fighter pilot who would rather fly a slide rule than kick your ass! -Commander Ron "Mugs" McKeown, USN Commander, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School 2 Victories, Vietnam
Hummingbird Posted March 30, 2015 Author Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Well, they were preping those guys to fight MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-25 and MiG-31 which are not particularly good at sustained turning. No, it was just a straight match up to assess comparative performance compared to the new aircraft. Maybe MiG17 pilot didn't know ACM..., or just the pure thrust from F-14 is much better and probably made the difference. Haha, oh no, the guy flying the MiGs was an expert on the aircraft no less. As mentioned in the book he could get everything out of the the aircraft (esp. the MiG-21), and if he couldn't then nobody could :) Edited March 30, 2015 by Hummingbird
Hummingbird Posted March 30, 2015 Author Posted March 30, 2015 Did I misunderstand the book? My take away from this part of the book was the A-4 with the slats bolted up, was not as close a representation of the Mig-17 & 21, as an A-4 with the slats operational? To more closely simulate the MiG-17 it probably needed the slats, as the MiG-17 was incredibly nimble at slow speeds, but the A-4 was far more maneuverable than the MiG-21 with or without the slats.
Basher54321 Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 Did I misunderstand the book? My take away from this part of the book was the A-4 with the slats bolted up, was not as close a representation of the Mig-17 & 21, as an A-4 with the slats operational? According to an old A-4 driver - the A-4 slats worked by gravity and sometimes during high G loads one of them would stick closed or open - thus leaving asymmetric slats - aka you lose if it happens at the wrong time. (Blue Angels also bolted them shut it seems) The F-5N/E was the MiG-21 simulator - overall turn performance was said comparable to the MiG-21F-13 when physically tested against it.
Hummingbird Posted March 30, 2015 Author Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) According to an old A-4 driver - the A-4 slats worked by gravity and sometimes during high G loads one of them would stick closed or open - thus leaving asymmetric slats - aka you lose if it happens at the wrong time. (Blue Angels also bolted them shut it seems) The F-5N/E was the MiG-21 simulator - overall turn performance was said comparable to the MiG-21F-13 when physically tested against it. Yeah, there were problems with the slats on the A-4 sometimes, which is why they were bolted shut for safety reasons. Mauler used that as an excuse for being pissed when confronting Hawk about that dogfight he lost, that he had broken the safety protocol, but Hawk would have none of it :D Hawk knew that Mauler was just pissed because he thought we was gonna get an easy kill, he didn't expect to see the A-4 suddenly being able to turn with him, thus he didn't pay proper attention to his energy state and as a result he got smoked. But that's real ACM for ya, expect the unexpected ^^ Edited March 30, 2015 by Hummingbird
Hummingbird Posted May 9, 2015 Author Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) A new video for the collection: 5n0EdP64hEE Some very impressive maneuvering going on in this video, with an impressive high AoA turn with full wing sweep at 4:24 min. Edited May 9, 2015 by Hummingbird
Angel101 Posted May 15, 2015 Posted May 15, 2015 Has anyone looked at this article? http://theaviationist.com/2015/05/13/f-14-vs-everything-video/
captain_dalan Posted May 15, 2015 Posted May 15, 2015 (edited) Has anyone looked at this article? http://theaviationist.com/2015/05/13/f-14-vs-everything-video/ Very nice HUD vids :thumbup: From my sim experience flying the F-14A, those M2000s are the nastiest of the nasties as DACT WVR adversaries. Tiny and nimble as hell. Unless the enemy pilot does something stupid and squanders all his energy away, they are incredibly hard to nail down. Edited May 16, 2015 by captain_dalan Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache
BlackLion213 Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Very nice HUD vids :thumbup: From my sim experience flying the F-14A, those M2000s are the nastiest of the nasties as DACT WVR adversaries. Tiny and nimble as hell. Unless the enemy pilot does something stupid and squanders all his energy away, they are incredibly had to nail down. The Mirage 2000C looks like a really fun airplane to fly and I'm looking forward to Razbam's release. Has an impressive ITR. It is also a solid Tomcat contemporary (more contemporary from a tech standpoint than the F-16 or F/A-18) that will offer lots of DACT opportunities. Lots of great stuff right around the corner in DCS. -Nick
Hummingbird Posted May 16, 2015 Author Posted May 16, 2015 Has anyone looked at this article? http://theaviationist.com/2015/05/13/f-14-vs-everything-video/ Great video :) At 8:24 min, that is about one of the most aggressive maneuvers I've ever seen from a fighter :surprise: The high alpha capability of the F-14 with swept wings is absolutely crazy, and I can now definitely understand why the first F-14 pilots said that everyone was surprised at how well the aircraft turned with the wings full swept. Funny enough, they actually compared it with the Mirage 2000 when wings were fully swept. The aggressive pull up after a tight turn at 5:12 min is also very impressive. The F-14's main strength may be its STR, but it features an impressive ITR as well, and the nose pointing ability with wings swept is pretty amazing.
captain_dalan Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Great video :) At 8:24 min, that is about one of the most aggressive maneuvers I've ever seen from a fighter :surprise: The high alpha capability of the F-14 with swept wings is absolutely crazy, and I can now definitely understand why the first F-14 pilots said that everyone was surprised at how well the aircraft turned with the wings full swept. Funny enough, they actually compared it with the Mirage 2000 when wings were fully swept. The aggressive pull up after a tight turn at 5:12 min is also very impressive. The F-14's main strength may be its STR, but it features an impressive ITR as well, and the nose pointing ability with wings swept is pretty amazing. Just be prepared to bleed energy like hell (with the wings that far back) and possibly work those rudders like mad to keep the nose straight :) Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache
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