K4 Accelerated Wing Stall

[Bucic]

Sorry, must correct: lbs per G is a constant within moderate M range. It can not vary with the speed.

What is M in this case? Mach number?

[Hummingbird]

Thanks, but I will leave that to the experts at ED, I think they are doing fine without these threads...

 

See that's your problem, you have 100% faith in everything that the ED team does to the point that you don't even dare question or criticise them. Thing is they are human too Sith, they make mistakes. As such they NEED feedback, esp. in the form of constructive criticism.

 

Now if you look at other simulators, such as the IL-2 series (all of them), you'll see the bf-109 behave very differently (no twitchy oversensitive stall characteristics there), and I'd wager that the IL-2 team has more experience with prop jobs than ED does, esp. considering that they've been constantly working with refining their WW2 aircraft FMs to best reflect reality for well over a decade now.

[NineLine]

See that's your problem, you have 100% faith in everything that the ED team does to the point that you don't even dare question or criticise them. Thing is they are human too Sith, they make mistakes. As such they NEED feedback, esp. in the form of constructive criticism.

 

Now if you look at other simulators, such as the IL-2 series (all of them), you'll see the bf-109 behave very differently (no twitchy oversensitive stall characteristics there), and I'd wager that the IL-2 team has more experience with prop jobs than ED does, esp. considering that they've been constantly working with refining their WW2 aircraft FMs to best reflect reality for well over a decade now.

 

You have no clue how many bugs I have submitted to ED, so only speak of what you know okay. In this situation, you dont know anything about what I do, it might be a tough pill to swallow, but you are not all knowing and all seeing.

 

As far as submitting bugs, its not about false perceptions carried over from previous sims that scripted most of their FMs. Its about hard data. DCS requires practice and skill. You cant just be an instant ace, no matter how many hours you have had flying a 20 year old game. So coming here, quoting some pilot notes wont cut it, it takes a lot more effort to try and find out if something is modeled correctly. As well, Yo-Yo and ED have been very open when they find an issue or when the community helps bring attention to one, so your attitude is way off base.

 

In this case, if you watch the videos Page.Down submitted in this thread, especially the second one, you will noticed that its more pilot error than FM. Stop trying so hard to prove everything wrong... you need to be willing to look at both sides, you accuse others of not doing so, but you are just as guilty if not more. And if your only argument at this point is I am afraid to criticize, feel free to ask Yo-Yo about that. I have no issue calling ED on something if it needs to be, but I also have enough respect to know they are professionals, and they might just know what they are doing.

Edited April 29, 2015 by NineLine

[otto]

I see yo-yo as a man that does his job with professionalism and dedication.

 

I can't say i'm not happy with the 109 FM in DCS. It stalls and shakes too easy imho and I gave other general concerns I posted .But compared with another I can't even say "simulator" where the 109 flat stalls when pulling mild negative g.I mean that's a disaster of FM.And a ton of fanboys that also don't fly the 109 in that "simulator" are saying that fm is accurate .

Edited April 30, 2015 by otto

[Echo38]

I'd wager that the IL-2 team has more experience with prop jobs than ED does, esp. considering that they've been constantly working with refining their WW2 aircraft FMs to best reflect reality for well over a decade now.

 

You really believe that?

 

Okay, yep, I think this thread's done. Time to move along, yes?

Edited April 30, 2015 by Echo38

[NineLine]

I see yo-yo as a man that does his job with professionalism and dedication.

 

I can't say i'm not happy with the 109 FM in DCS. It stalls and shakes too easy imho and I gave other general concerns I posted .But compared with another I can't even say "simulator" where the 109 flat stalls when pulling mild negative g.I mean that's a disaster of FM.And a ton of fanboys that also don't fly the 109 in that "simulator" are saying that fm is accurate .

 

I by no means think that the 109 is 100% perfect right now, but more so because its still in beta and ED has stated as much. Hummingbird is right though, I do have 100% faith in ED... to deliver the best simulation I have ever flown of a 109. I have talked to Yo-Yo enough to know how serious he is about WWII aircraft. I am not worried at all.

 

For the record, I fly all the others as well, I have flown WWII flight sims since back in the early/mid 90's with games like Warbirds. I still jump on WT many nights as its an easy game to get into with a 3 year old on your six. I have been around the block too, this isnt my first sim.

 

Anyways I am going to try and fly some moves like the OP did and see if I can show anything different. I'll post it here if its not too embarrassing :)

[Echo38]

I have talked to Yo-Yo enough to know how serious he is about WWII aircraft.

 

The fact that he has written 10,000+ posts on this forum--informative posts--is a good indicator of this, if the quality of the aircraft modelling weren't enough to prove it. Perhaps some of the people in this thread would do well to use the forum search and examine some of those posts, to see the level of detail that Yo-Yo goes into on issues such as this.

 

(A level of detail, I might add, that was never, ever found in any other flight sim/game ... but that's another story.)

Edited April 30, 2015 by Echo38

[[DBS]TH0R]

Now if you look at other simulators, such as the IL-2 series (all of them), you'll see the bf-109 behave very differently (no twitchy oversensitive stall characteristics there), and I'd wager that the IL-2 team has more experience with prop jobs than ED does, esp. considering that they've been constantly working with refining their WW2 aircraft FMs to best reflect reality for well over a decade now.

 

I guess this explains a lot. :)

 

 

I see yo-yo as a man that does his job with professionalism and dedication.

 

Same here. It was interesting to read Kurfürst's thoughts on the the module.

 

I can't say i'm not happy with the 109 FM in DCS. It stalls and shakes too easy imho and I gave other general concerns I posted .But compared with another I can't even say "simulator" where the 109 flat stalls when pulling mild negative g.I mean that's a disaster of FM.And a ton of fanboys that also don't fly the 109 in that "simulator" are saying that fm is accurate .

 

What joystick are you using Otto? I tested 109 with a shorter MSFF2 and the difference is obvious.

 

 

Anyways I am going to try and fly some moves like the OP did and see if I can show anything different. I'll post it here if its not too embarrassing :)

 

If you have the time (I'd do it but lack free time in the next couple of days), it would be interesting to back your tracks up with TacView to see if you really maintained a constant AOA like OP was trying to do, while we tried to explain to him that he in fact did not.

Edited April 30, 2015 by T}{OR

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I look forward for the upcoming patches, and I'm also always confident about Yo-Yo's / ED work on this ww2 series.

 

I also use Il2 BOS, and honestly, I think both sims are doing very well, each one on it's own, each with their strong and week points.

 

Flight model / overall physics modeling is of higher grade on both sims IMO. I prefer some aspects of how these warbirds behave in DCS over BoS, and then I am more fond of some damage model and even flight dynamics aspects as they're modeled in BoS.

 

I can't say I have one as my choice - they're both very good. Of course I keep comparing, but it's nice to see, specially in the K4 vs G2 / F4 in the other sim, that they have much in common... for the good and for the bad ...

 

Now, indeed there is something strange about the K4 in DCS when it stalls, specially in accelerated stalls developing into spins that get suddenly interrupted, then start, then stop... again and again, caused, I believe, by the slat physics.

 

There is also still something weird regarding pitch stability, and trim... and the stick forces are certainly going to be updated, including adding them to yaw as well... But overall it's a great module.

[Hummingbird]

You really believe that?

 

Okay, yep, I think this thread's done. Time to move along, yes?

 

I don't believe it, I know it.

 

ED's niche is that you can click everything in the cockpit, the FM's aren't anymore accurate than say IL-2 BoS/CoD. The maddox team has been working with simulating these WW2 prop jobs for way longer than ED, thus it shouldn't be surprising that their FMs for these birds better follow actual pilot accounts.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Hummingbird

[Echo38]

The maddox team has been working with simulating these WW2 prop jobs for way longer than ED

 

That's certainly true

 

[puts on aviator goggles]

 

... if you use a loose definition of "simulating."

 

[cue musical sting]

[Nirvi]

I don't believe it, I know it.

 

ED's niche is that you can click everything in the cockpit, the FM's aren't anymore accurate than say IL-2 BoS/CoD. The maddox team has been working with simulating these WW2 prop jobs for way longer than ED, thus it shouldn't be surprising that their FMs for these birds better follow actual pilot accounts.

 

Now it's getting ridiculous :lol:

[Hummingbird]

That's certainly true

 

[puts on aviator goggles]

 

... if you use a loose definition of "simulating."

 

[cue musical sting]

 

You like using the argument of "just because" a lot it seems :smilewink:

[Hummingbird]

Now it's getting ridiculous :lol:

 

Really? What part of ED's FM do you find more refined than that of IL-2 BoS/CoD's ?

[Hummingbird]

I by no means think that the 109 is 100% perfect right now, but more so because its still in beta and ED has stated as much. Hummingbird is right though, I do have 100% faith in ED... to deliver the best simulation I have ever flown of a 109. I have talked to Yo-Yo enough to know how serious he is about WWII aircraft. I am not worried at all.

 

I have faith in ED as well, but I am not satisfied with the flying characteristics of certain aircraft atm, esp. the 109 which in terms of stalling behaves nothing like how it's described by actual pilots who fly it.

 

Other things such as the lack of proper weapons damage modelling I also have an issue with (.50 cals feel like peashooters and the Mk108 is just comically inert ^^ ).

 

Now that doesn't mean that I don't have faith that ED will eventually solve these issues, however they obviously need feedback and time to correct it. That's where the community comes in.

[Echo38]

.50 cals feel like peashooters

 

L2shoot, marm! [tips hat]

 

My buddy took down my A-10C with a one-second burst from his .50s yesterday. Barely knew what hit me; both engines were on fire and one of my wings damn near fell off. The fifty-cals can be tricky to use when one's out of practice, but you know what they say about practice!

[NineLine]

L2shoot, marm! [tips hat]

 

My buddy took down my A-10C with a one-second burst from his .50s yesterday. Barely knew what hit me; both engines were on fire and one of my wings damn near fell off. The fifty-cals can be tricky to use when one's out of practice, but you know what they say about practice!

 

Some people have trouble understanding the issue, but anyways, this thread is way off the rails now. I haven't seen anything compelling for a bug report. So, closed.