Curves and Axis Tuning Again

[marcus4hire]

Greetings All:

I have spent the last week or so reading up on curves and fine tuning control axis. I know this topic has been discussed constantly but in reading the various threads out there as well as the manual I was still left with several questions that I was hoping can be answered.

Quick background, been flying sims for most of my life since the late 80’s. Been on DCS for a bit over a year. Use a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and Saitek X45 throttle (I didn’t like the Saitek stick at all). No peddles. I spend all of my time on P-51D, Bf-109K, and Fw-190D. I fly 100% realism settings and completed campaigns including all crosswind takeoffs/landings, dogfights, etc. I consider myself comfortable with the three planes and their systems though I am far from expert.

On to the questions:

-It is my understanding that the curves/fine tune exist as sort of an in game calibration for the various sticks out there and aim to make flying easier. Is this correct?

-The curves/fine tuning are not intended to add to realism, but intended to make the models more accessible/forgiving. Is this correct?

-If I can fly and fight the aircraft I do not need to fiddle with these settings and should leave them alone, in a perfect world. Right? Or can I adjust these in order to throw the aircraft around the sky and complete tighter turns, more solid input control, etc?

-I get what the deadzone is (how far you can move the stick before the aircraft responds). Could somebody please define the curvature in layman’s terms? Having trouble grasping that one.

That is all for now. A lot, I know. I apologize, I am still grasping at what the curves/fine tuning mean, what their purpose is, and how they fit in with my flying. I’ve seen all sorts of settings and anything from people swearing by them to those saying not to use them.

I learned to fly and control the aircraft without the curves but yes, sometimes it seems that they are balancing on the head of a pin. Regardless, I want the most realistic experience. If the planes should be easier, great! If they are accurately modeled to be as touchy then that is what I want.

 

Thanks for any info. Hope I didn’t ramble on too long.

[marluk]

With curve adjustments you can set joystick sensitivity.

 

XY curve graph usually represents mapping between: X-actual axis movement and Y-movement of the stick in simulated plane.

 

If you have perfect joystick device for plane you are flying in simulator, there should be no need for adjusting axis curves. For instance I'm using TM Warthog to fly A-10C and I've never had need to touch curves.

 

Sometimes when flying you can feel that your joystick is little too sensitive. Than you can form S curve to lower sensitivities of the stick near center position... so movement of the stick (curve X axis) will produce less in game movement (curve Y axis).

 

Dead zone is defined within the same XY curve. It is vicinity around x=0 where values are mapped into 0 (y=0). So, for instance, you can define from x=-0.5 to x=0.5 as dead zone so that amount of detected stick movement will not produce any stick movement in simulated plane.

 

Generally it is hard to say which setting are closer to the real thing, as there are many variables in equation. If you feel right with your stick, don't touch the curves. If you feel that you have trouble to precise control the plane, you can try to make some amount of S curve to lower sensitivities.

 

Check raw input of your joystick near the center. Leave it in center position, and very gently tap on it without actual moving. If there is need to define dead zone you will see that joystick input is hopping around the center position. That area where you have stochastic control output without real input should be covered with dead zone.

 

Good luck.

Edited May 19, 2015 by marluk

[marcus4hire]

Thank you for taking a few moments to answer that.

 

You managed to do so in a very simple way too. I admit, my post was long. Partly because I couldn't really understand what exactly I was asking.

 

Your response helped immensely. I have come to the conclusion that I need minimal, if any correction. While I use a relatively cheap stick I find that it is fairly tight and though it takes some practice, I don't have too much trouble controlling the particular planes I mentioned.

 

The 109 just seems to suffer with any dead zones or curves. The 190 is pretty lively but I believe it is as it should be. The P-51. I can't decide on it and trying a few things. Minor adjustments if anything.

 

Thanks again!

[PFunk1606688187]

Curves make up for the lack of stick throw that we have which effectively lowers the resolution of your input compared to a real stick. For the same angular depression from centre which is read by the pots in your stick a shorter stick moves less distance while a longer stick moves more distance. This means that longer sticks effectively allow for finer control. Curvature allows you to use a compromise solution to offer increased input resolution in part of the stick throw while sacrificing that resolution elsewhere.

 

Ideally you don't want any stick curve, but if its necessary then its necessary. Excessive stick curve can create what I generally just call input acceleration, where the curve goes from higher to lower resolution sharply (the curve is steep) and so you get an unwanted and difficult to control increase in input authority. If this happens in a bad part of the flight regime it can lead to stalls or simply jerky flight. If you calibrate your curves properly you can get either little to no noticeable acceleration of input or you can see it happen in parts of the stick throw you seldom encounter, such as deflection beyond the point of stalling in most phases of flight.

 

Last thing to consider is how some modules are designed. I think there are simulations of stick forces in some of those prop planes that occur independent of the curve. I'm no expert, I don't fly them, but I recall something about that. It may influence the relevance of using curve.

[marcus4hire]

That helps as well.

 

And goes along with what I was taking away from playing with curves. Guess I misunderstood some of the other threads and posts.

 

I get the difference between a full length stick versus a short throw desktop stick. But as long as I am attentive and don't throw it around the cockpit, I experience little, if any, trouble. Kept departing at first but, over time, I learned just how much I could get away with.

 

To get off on a tangent: In my opinion, the idea of snapping the stick from one side to the other is very 'Hollywood'. You see the same thing with cars in the movies. People are way over-steering compared to how you drive in real life, with small inputs on the wheel. I imagine planes are similar. You don't slam the stick all the way to one side and pull for all your worth, you have to pay attention to what the plane is telling you. In ACM, it sometimes feels like you are barely turning when, in fact, you are coming around at a pretty good clip.

 

Thanks again.

[Art-J]

Just flying the plane is one thing, precise aiming is the other (especially in older aircraft without any guided munitions). I still use and experiment with some curve settings in all my planes, because my unmodded Warthog with the stiff spring and "sticktion" issue makes gunnery more difficult otherwise.

[Deezle]

It's greatly personal preference and equipment dependent. I have a 3" extension on my WH and have gotten away from using curves, however I still use some curve on the rudder pedals because I find them to be extremely sensitive without it.

[PFunk1606688187]

To get off on a tangent: In my opinion, the idea of snapping the stick from one side to the other is very 'Hollywood'. You see the same thing with cars in the movies. People are way over-steering compared to how you drive in real life, with small inputs on the wheel. I imagine planes are similar. You don't slam the stick all the way to one side and pull for all your worth, you have to pay attention to what the plane is telling you. In ACM, it sometimes feels like you are barely turning when, in fact, you are coming around at a pretty good clip.

Thats true but in real life it can be an issue with so called PIOs - Pilot Induced Oscillations. I believe there was at least one instance of a pilot causing an airline crash entirely because he was over controlling an otherwise perfectly flyable aircraft.

 

Sim pilots encounter this issue resulting from both the oversensitive short throw sim sticks we use as well as poorly calibrated or understood curves which create the afore mentioned increasing input rate. Low or erratic frame rates can also contribute greatly to this.

 

Most people I know who use curves do so because of massive PIOs they suffer when trying to AAR without one.

[marluk]

That helps as well.

 

And goes along with what I was taking away from playing with curves. Guess I misunderstood some of the other threads and posts.

 

I get the difference between a full length stick versus a short throw desktop stick. But as long as I am attentive and don't throw it around the cockpit, I experience little, if any, trouble. Kept departing at first but, over time, I learned just how much I could get away with.

 

To get off on a tangent: In my opinion, the idea of snapping the stick from one side to the other is very 'Hollywood'. You see the same thing with cars in the movies. People are way over-steering compared to how you drive in real life, with small inputs on the wheel. I imagine planes are similar. You don't slam the stick all the way to one side and pull for all your worth, you have to pay attention to what the plane is telling you. In ACM, it sometimes feels like you are barely turning when, in fact, you are coming around at a pretty good clip.

 

Thanks again.

 

You're welcome marcus! Glad to help.

 

There is one more thing you can do. Instead making S curve, you can keep it linear and sacrifice some of the edge positions of the stick movement to keep the resolution unchanged with greater precision. in this way you could minimize or completely avoid problems with input acceleration what P*Funk has mentioned.

 

I think in DCS this option is named 'Saturation Y'. Try to move it and you will see that curve is getting more shallow while some of the edge Y values are not mapped any more.

If you are not using edge positions while flying maybe you could find this option interesting.

 

Of course you can combine S curve and Y saturation to make trade off that best suits you.

Edited May 20, 2015 by marluk

[marluk]

It's greatly personal preference and equipment dependent. I have a 3" extension on my WH and have gotten away from using curves, however I still use some curve on the rudder pedals because I find them to be extremely sensitive without it.

 

Size is not everything, but I must agree with you. There is no such thing as longer stick! :thumbup:

 

The best way to increase precision is to prolong the stick. I've done that with my TM Warthog too. I'm very satisfied with the result.

With one hit I've killed three flies.

- better precision

- less stickiness

- can be mounted on chair

 

Extensions should come with the stick as part of the product.

[marcus4hire]

Just flying the plane is one thing, precise aiming is the other (especially in older aircraft without any guided munitions). I still use and experiment with some curve settings in all my planes, because my unmodded Warthog with the stiff spring and "sticktion" issue makes gunnery more difficult otherwise.

 

 

I completely understand stiff springs and sticktion, as you called it. Why I stopped using my Saitek stick. Had a 'catch' on it which is very well known but, whatever I did I couldn't get it to go away. Made fine inputs impossible. Otherwise, I like the calibration it had.

[marcus4hire]

You're welcome marcus! Glad to help.

 

There is one more thing you can do. Instead making S curve, you can keep it linear and sacrifice some of the edge positions of the stick movement to keep the resolution unchanged with greater precision. in this way you could minimize or completely avoid problems with input acceleration what P*Funk has mentioned.

 

I think in DCS this option is named 'Saturation Y'. Try to move it and you will see that curve is getting more shallow while some of the edge Y values are not mapped any more.

If you are not using edge positions while flying maybe you could find this option interesting.

 

Of course you can combine S curve and Y saturation to make trade off that best suits you.

 

Oh, I'll prolly continue to mess with curves and whatnot but I don't feel an immediate need to make any changes. I just have trouble with the fact that curves are one of the most discussed topics and many swear by them but I do alright without them. That isn't a jab or snarky remark. On the contrary, I wonder what I am doing wrong.

[marcus4hire]

As an aside, I would just like to extend a formal 'thank you' to the devs and this forum. Everybody has been most helpful, patient, and polite. I have flown a lot of sims but DCS has the best community by far and the forums are vital to fully understanding some of these aircraft.

 

Thanks all!