Cannot maintain level flight with maximum nose down trim

[dok_rp]

Hello guys,

 

I am having a pain flying the K-4. Even with maximum nose down trim and the power setting at 1.4 ata the aircraft still wants to climb.

 

To counter that I need to apply about 50% forward-left deflection on my joystick to keep it flying level. It's an absolute pain.

 

This is exactly the deflection I need to apply to keep it level:

 

 

 

After a few hours playing around with the controllers I have isolated one possible "culprit".

 

I use the HOTAS Warthog which is a very sensitive joystick and I find it almost impossible to control any of the aircraft in the game without having a response curve of about 34 set in game, like such:

 

 

Without this setting all aircraft are extremely sensitive and almost impossible to control for me.

 

Some time ago a "stiffness" simulation was added to the game and the K-4 was one of the aircraft presented with such feature.

 

Although I believe it adds to realism it also makes our lives extremely difficult because such "stiffness" adds to the response curve around the center position making the aircraft extremely numb and unresponsive to control.

 

Added to this problem is the fact that the K-4 even with maximum nose down trim still wants to nose up and roll right; movements which must be countered with forward-left stick positioning.

 

However, with such numbing at the center stick position I have to move the stick about half its course to keep the aircraft flying level. Doing that for more than a few minutes is actually painful.

 

Therefore I have a few questions:

 

1) Is the ineffectiveness of the trim in the K-4 an inherent problem with this particular aircraft? A game bug? An intentional feature? Or maybe none of the above?

 

As a side note I would like to say that this is the only aircraft I have problems with; and I have every single module from DCS. Even the D-9 which also has this stiffness simulation to the ailerons does not give such a headache to keep it flying level.

 

2) Would it be possible to turn this "stiffening" feature off? The P-51 doesn't have it and it's a marvel to fly. Although having an excessively sensitive engine, it's great to fly.

 

Thanks for any help.

[Flagrum]

(...)

Without this setting all aircraft are extremely sensitive and almost impossible to control for me.

(...)

making the aircraft extremely numb and unresponsive to control.

(...)

 

1) Is the ineffectiveness of the trim in the K-4 an inherent problem with this particular aircraft? A game bug? An intentional feature? Or maybe none of the above?

 

As a side note I would like to say that this is the only aircraft I have problems with; and I have every single module from DCS. Even the D-9 which also has this stiffness simulation to the ailerons does not give such a headache to keep it flying level.

 

2) Would it be possible to turn this "stiffening" feature off? The P-51 doesn't have it and it's a marvel to fly. Although having an excessively sensitive engine, it's great to fly.

 

Thanks for any help.

Hrm, is it now too sensitive or too numb for you? I did not really get that part ...

 

Regarding 1)

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135453

 

Regarding 2)

Afaik it is planned that the P-51 gets that feature as well.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I don't think the problem is on you or on your controller setup ( I'd love to have a Warthog ) but rather on the modeling of the K4.

 

I would add to the problems you mentioned yet another very evident: The asymmetry of the way control stiffening is being modeled in this particular aircraft. With increasing dynamic pressure your ailerons will turn heavier and heavier, very stiff above 600 km/h, as it's mentioned on many reports of RW pilots, pitch is also affected, but there are no simulated comparable forces for the rudder, making flight at high speeds rather weird...

Edited June 25, 2015 by jcomm

[Sporg]

I believe your problem lies mostly in the curves you set.

As Flagrum pointed out, your setting may solve your problem of feeling the aircraft to be too responsive, but the big disadvantage is that you then also numb them down to be difficult to fly in other situations.

 

I have the Warthog myself, and find the aircraft response to be quite balanced in all situations.

 

I think you should do yourself the favor to remove the curves you set and practice flying the aircraft as they are.

 

Additionally you could consider buying an extension for your Warthog stick.

This should reduce the sensitivity you feel when using it.

 

As an example, this is the one I consider purchasing myself:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2008956#post2008956

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

Hello guys,

 

I am having a pain flying the K-4. Even with maximum nose down trim and the power setting at 1.4 ata the aircraft still wants to climb.

 

Hrm, is it now too sensitive or too numb for you? I did not really get that part ...

 

Regarding 1)

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135453

 

Regarding 2)

Afaik it is planned that the P-51 gets that feature as well.

 

I don't think the problem is on you or on your controller setup .

 

I think that problems like this reported by virtual pilots, are due to the incorrect elevator trim modelling in the Bf-109K4.

There is a thread with 27 pages at this moment, referred to this problems as Flagrum says.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135453

[Yo-Yo]

I think that problems like this reported by virtual pilots, are due to the incorrect elevator trim modelling in the Bf-109K4.

There is a thread with 27 pages at this moment, referred to this problems as Flagrum says.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135453

 

Please provide a solid proof of your statement about incorrect modelling, or your statement will be considered as a baseless bashing. I tried to be as patient as I could but even my angel's patience has the limit...

[NineLine]

You guys are steering him wrong (no pun intended), I have the x55 (no curves added), I can trim to 1.5ish and fly level no issues at cruise. Even without trim, its just a subtle stick forward movement that I need to hold for level flight, totally un-noticed in combat.

 

Please dont use other peoples threads to forward your own issues even after they have been addressed by the FM creator.

 

I think that problems like this reported by virtual pilots, are due to the incorrect elevator trim modelling in the Bf-109K4.

There is a thread with 27 pages at this moment, referred to this problems as Flagrum says.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135453

 

I don't think the problem is on you or on your controller setup ( I'd love to have a Warthog ) but rather on the modeling of the K4.

[dok_rp]

Thank you very much for the response guys,

 

Hrm, is it now too sensitive or too numb for you? I did not really get that part ...

 

Regarding 1)

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135453

 

Regarding 2)

Afaik it is planned that the P-51 gets that feature as well.

 

 

The problem, Flagrum is that the response curve I have to set on my controller adds up with the stiffness simulation, which is yet another "response curve" and both added together make the center portion of the joystick extremely numb at speeds over 450km/h.

 

Added to that is the "lack" of enough nose down trim at speeds over 450km/h which forces you to compensate by pushing the stick forward-left.

 

The real stick deflection needed to keep the aircraft flying level at these conditions is quite small. I would say about 5-8º forward-left stick deflection. However, since the fore-mentioned response curves get added up, that results in a huge needed joystick deflection to counter the nose up tendency.

 

Another point is that the Warthog is a pretty stiff joystick as it is and keeping it deflected for more than a few minutes at the same position starts to get painful pretty quickly. I also have very little space in the room where I fly and so the joystick is positioned in an unfavorable position over my desk, which makes it even worse.

 

Summing up:

1) Simulated stiffness response curve + Necessary setup response curve = Excessive numbness at the center joystick area and...

 

2) Excessive numbness at the joystick center area + "lack" of trim for speeds over 450km/h + natural stiffness of the warthog = Painful flying.

 

 

I believe your problem lies mostly in the curves you set.

As Flagrum pointed out, your setting may solve your problem of feeling the aircraft to be too responsive, but the big disadvantage is that you then also numb them down to be difficult to fly in other situations.

 

I have the Warthog myself, and find the aircraft response to be quite balanced in all situations.

 

I think you should do yourself the favor to remove the curves you set and practice flying the aircraft as they are.

 

Additionally you could consider buying an extension for your Warthog stick.

This should reduce the sensitivity you feel when using it.

 

As an example, this is the one I consider purchasing myself:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2008956#post2008956

 

 

Hello Sporg,

 

I also tried setting the response curve to "zero" and test it out. Even though the needed deflection to keep the aircraft flying level due to the "lack" of trim is greatly reduced, I find the warthog way too sensitive when dogfighting at lower speeds when the simulated "stiffness" goes away.

 

At speeds under 300km/h, almost all simulated stiffness will disappear and I am going to be left with the full stick travel at its maximum sensitivity. At these conditions, dogfighting becomes very difficult.

 

What I don't like about this simulated stiffness system is that for our actual home joystick systems there is no way to tell what's really happening, whereas a real pilot would immediately notice what is going on. Therefore we must get accustomed to several different response curves since we don't know exactly what are the limitations imposed on our joysticks.

 

While going through the 27 pages and roughly 250 replies in the Bf-109 Trim thread I came across this post from the developer:

 

I guess the problem (if it presents) is in the joysticks with hard center force like Thrustmaster... never like it especially for formation flying.

 

MSFF2 - our choice! Get the hand away and no trimmers required

 

I guess the Microsoft Force feedback joystick is what they had in mind when developing such feature. It's probably much more intuitive to fly using one than using a stiff warthog sitting at your desk.

 

 

I think that problems like this reported by virtual pilots, are due to the incorrect elevator trim modelling in the Bf-109K4.

There is a thread with 27 pages at this moment, referred to this problems as Flagrum says.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135453

 

Thanks for pointing that out Otto. It took me about 40 minutes to read the whole thing, but I'll have to come back to it to further digest it.

[gavagai]

2) Would it be possible to turn this "stiffening" feature off? The P-51 doesn't have it and it's a marvel to fly. Although having an excessively sensitive engine, it's great to fly.

 

The P-51 does have it, but you'll only notice it at diving speeds, even though the P-51 is reported to have high stick forces compared to other American fighters like the P-47 and F4U.

 

Anyway, I agree that the 109 is very unpleasant to fly because of the ineffective pitch trim. :suspect: Stick with the Fw 190 and P-51.

[NineLine]

Anyway, I agree that the 109 is very unpleasant to fly because of the ineffective pitch trim. :suspect: Stick with the Fw 190 and P-51.

 

See my post above... if you cant trim it for cruise, something else is wrong with your set up.

[gavagai]

See my post above... if you cant trim it for cruise, something else is wrong with your set up.

 

I did not say I cannot trim for cruise. Indeed, I can. But that doesn't mean I do not find it unpleasant to fly because of the pitch trim behavior.;)

[Ala13_ManOWar]

I am having a pain flying the K-4. Even with maximum nose down trim and the power setting at 1.4 ata the aircraft still wants to climb.

Anddddd that's the Clue. You Can't hold aircraft nose using only trim in 109, and even less if you want that using maximum power setting. You can do it for a Cruise, as talked in the other thread, but not for max power. Also you can do it pretty well using a long stick, like the real one.

 

S!

[ElGringo]

Dok_rp, you might want to think about changing your setup. The warthog is not really meant to be used on a desk. If you set it lower, you will notice the improvement. Also an extension, like Sahaj one, does a lot to lower the stiffness of the stick.

It won' t do anything about the 109 pitch-up "issue", but it will be a lot easier on your wrist.

[Echo38]

I also tried setting the response curve to "zero" and test it out. Even though the needed deflection to keep the aircraft flying level due to the "lack" of trim is greatly reduced, I find the warthog way too sensitive when dogfighting at lower speeds when the simulated "stiffness" goes away.

 

I know that our spring-centered joysticks (I have a T-16000M, not a Warthog, but the former also has an overly-strong Thrustmaster spring) struggle with fine motions near center, compared to real aircraft controls; however, with practice, direct input on a spring-stick is ultimately capable of excellent gunnery accuracy, as well as extreme precision in general maneuvers. I've always recommended to my flight students to use direct input on the stick--no curves, and above all no dead zones. I've flown this way in flight sims since the day I first flew a real airplane.

 

After my first flight lesson, when I came home, I immediately ... well, I took a nap; real flying is very tiring. But, afterward, I loaded up my flight sim/games and took all the curves off, and have never used a joystick curve since. It's true that SPJs (shoddy plastic joysticks) are much twitchier than a real aircraft stick, by nature of their short length (as well as poor construction and lack of airflow-feel), but direct input is still overall much closer to the real aircraft stick's operation than a standard curve is. In a real aircraft, it responds to the smallest of inputs; you never have to move it far to get a noticeable result, the way you do with a joystick curve.

 

So, respectfully--I understand that I haven't exactly given you the answer for the question you asked, but I don't have one, other than this--I recommend strongly that you remove your joystick curves and begin learning to be more precise with your fine center motions. It's an acquired skill, and even real pilots find it difficult to get the hang of (because they're used to much-easier real stick/yoke), but it's quite possible, and I once was able to maintain (in a different flight sim/game, which displayed global stats) better than twice the average player's gunnery accuracy rating, while using direct input on a T-16000M.

 

In short, removing the curve will still allow you to be reasonably precise in your center-area inputs (with practice, as I said), and will also inherently give you more potential precision in your more aggressive maneuvers, because removing the curve returns the potential precision you "borrowed" from that range of input, when you added margin of error to the center. All else equal, you should find general combat maneuvers much easier, once you've gotten past being confused by the different feel of the stick, which shouldn't take more than a week or two. (Straight-and-level gunnery will always be a problem for a direct-input short-throw SPJ, but most gunnery in the dogfight happens at higher angles of deflection than that.) And, furthermore, it'll solve your redundant-center-sluggishness issue.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Echo38

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Ok Guys!

 

I give up resisting...

 

Tonight I'll reinstall DCS and the 109 K4, and test it. Don't even recall if I have tested the latest available beta release.

 

Will report back in this thread.

[Solty]

 

 

2) Would it be possible to turn this "stiffening" feature off? The P-51 doesn't have it and it's a marvel to fly. Although having an excessively sensitive engine, it's great to fly.

 

Thanks for any help.

2) P-51D already has the stiffening, it is just different.

 

Also, if you don't want to have stiff 109, you don't want to fly a 109. Its like asking to make AK47 to have no recoil.

[dok_rp]

2) P-51D already has the stiffening, it is just different.

 

Also, if you don't want to have stiff 109, you don't want to fly a 109. Its like asking to make AK47 to have no recoil.

 

 

You should read my post again. Sorry, but you clearly did not understand what the problem I was citing was.

 

You took one sentence out of a whole body of text and created your own context for it.

 

 

Dok_rp, you might want to think about changing your setup. The warthog is not really meant to be used on a desk. If you set it lower, you will notice the improvement. Also an extension, like Sahaj one, does a lot to lower the stiffness of the stick.

It won' t do anything about the 109 pitch-up "issue", but it will be a lot easier on your wrist.

 

I'd dream of doing that ElGringo. Those extensions you purchase from a user here on the forum look great. I think Mat Wagner uses one of them too. However, I would also have to adapt my chair (or purchase another one) and my space here is very limited. Until I have an office for my computer exclusively that won't be possible.

 

 

I know that our spring-centered joysticks (I have a T-16000M, not a Warthog, but the former also has an overly-strong Thrustmaster spring) struggle with fine motions near center, compared to real aircraft controls; however, with practice, direct input on a spring-stick is ultimately capable of excellent gunnery accuracy, as well as extreme precision in general maneuvers. I've always recommended to my flight students to use direct input on the stick--no curves, and above all no dead zones. I've flown this way in flight sims since the day I first flew a real airplane.

 

After my first flight lesson, when I came home, I immediately ... well, I took a nap; real flying is very tiring. But, afterward, I loaded up my flight sim/games and took all the curves off, and have never used a joystick curve since. It's true that SPJs (shoddy plastic joysticks) are much twitchier than a real aircraft stick, by nature of their short length (as well as poor construction and lack of airflow-feel), but direct input is still overall much closer to the real aircraft stick's operation than a standard curve is. In a real aircraft, it responds to the smallest of inputs; you never have to move it far to get a noticeable result, the way you do with a joystick curve.

 

So, respectfully--I understand that I haven't exactly given you the answer for the question you asked, but I don't have one, other than this--I recommend strongly that you remove your joystick curves and begin learning to be more precise with your fine center motions. It's an acquired skill, and even real pilots find it difficult to get the hang of (because they're used to much-easier real stick/yoke), but it's quite possible, and I once was able to maintain (in a different flight sim/game, which displayed global stats) better than twice the average player's gunnery accuracy rating, while using direct input on a T-16000M.

 

In short, removing the curve will still allow you to be reasonably precise in your center-area inputs (with practice, as I said), and will also inherently give you more potential precision in your more aggressive maneuvers, because removing the curve returns the potential precision you "borrowed" from that range of input, when you added margin of error to the center. All else equal, you should find general combat maneuvers much easier, once you've gotten past being confused by the different feel of the stick, which shouldn't take more than a week or two. (Straight-and-level gunnery will always be a problem for a direct-input short-throw SPJ, but most gunnery in the dogfight happens at higher angles of deflection than that.) And, furthermore, it'll solve your redundant-center-sluggishness issue.

 

 

Hello Echo38,

 

I have tried that many times. However the position I have to use the Warthog at makes fine tuning my movements when using no response curves at all very difficult. Flying the UH-1, for example, is an absolute chore when using no curves at all. The Warthog is simply too stiff (and I have replaced the factory lube for a much better one) for me to fine-control it while the joystick base is sitting at my waist line (this is as low as my desk will allow it to be). However if I add around a curve of 30, flying the UH-1 becomes an absolute pleasure.

 

The same goes for older aircraft such as the P-51 and D-9.

 

Anddddd that's the Clue. You Can't hold aircraft nose using only trim in 109, and even less if you want that using maximum power setting. You can do it for a Cruise, as talked in the other thread, but not for max power. Also you can do it pretty well using a long stick, like the real one.

 

S!

 

I am going to play around again with 1.35 ata and 2500 rpm. I'll post the results here as well.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for everything, guys. =)

Edited June 25, 2015 by dok_rp

[Nedum]

Please provide a solid proof of your statement about incorrect modelling, or your statement will be considered as a baseless bashing. I tried to be as patient as I could but even my angel's patience has the limit...

 

Wait a moment please!

He said very clear "I think" not "it is".

And I myself can't believe that the germans are so stupid to build one of the best WWII fighters that can't be out trimmed at higher speeds.

I myself saw only some tests made from russian pilots with a captured BF109.

Do you know the term "propaganda" info?

This test is as good as Ottos or my doubts about that trim behavior!

The only difference is, the russian stuff was written on paper.

As long as we can't see a german Luftwaffe paper about this trimm behavior, the K-4 trimm should be made with logic and not based on old propaganda papers!

This were not the first WWII russian paper with wrong infos about the enemys strength (the other sides did the same).

There are still german WWII designes, where you need much more as a testpilot or engineer to get all info out of it. You needed the infos from the builder (without Werner von Braun or the german engineers in russia, both nation had a hard time to get in the space!).

If you think about the K-4 as an engineer, would you really think that the germans were so stupid to build such a bad trim, because higher speed was at the end of the War the "thing" to go!?

Pure logical is the trimm behavior of the K-4 wrong like hell!

Or give us please a logical explanation why the germans should make a fighter with such a bad trim behavior!?

I thought about this since I flew the K-4 the first time and till today I don't get anything that could explain this stupid trim (for me) of the K-4. :(

[NineLine]

There is a whole big thread on this already, please take the time to read that before you start getting all huffy... once again, this isnt helping the OP.

 

PS... remember, Yo-Yo spent time, and still communicates with a Luftwaffe pilot... I think that trumps most.

 

Wait a moment please!

He said very clear "I think" not "it is".

And I myself can't believe that the germans are so stupid to build one of the best WWII fighters that can't be out trimmed at higher speeds.

I myself saw only some tests made from russian pilots with a captured BF109.

Do you know the term "propaganda" info?

This test is as good as Ottos or my doubts about that trim behavior!

The only difference is, the russian stuff was written on paper.

As long as we can't see a german Luftwaffe paper about this trimm behavior, the K-4 trimm should be made with logic and not based on old propaganda papers!

This were not the first WWII russian paper with wrong infos about the enemys strength (the other sides did the same).

There are still german WWII designes, where you need much more as a testpilot or engineer to get all info out of it. You needed the infos from the builder (without Werner von Braun or the german engineers in russia, both nation had a hard time to get in the space!).

If you think about the K-4 as an engineer, would you really think that the germans were so stupid to build such a bad trim, because higher speed was at the end of the War the "thing" to go!?

Pure logical is the trimm behavior of the K-4 wrong like hell!

Or give us please a logical explanation why the germans should make a fighter with such a bad trim behavior!?

I thought about this since I flew the K-4 the first time and till today I don't get anything that could explain this stupid trim (for me) of the K-4. :(

[Yo-Yo]

Dok_rp, you might want to think about changing your setup. The warthog is not really meant to be used on a desk. If you set it lower, you will notice the improvement. Also an extension, like Sahaj one, does a lot to lower the stiffness of the stick.

It won' t do anything about the 109 pitch-up "issue", but it will be a lot easier on your wrist.

 

I hate the type of loading Warthog has - strongly pre-tensioned spring and almost no force gradient as you deflect the joystick. Extremely non-informative and exhausting feeling... and way far from the real plane feeling. So, I can imagine how irritating is to hold it 1 mm forward applying almost full force.

 

And this a conflict between accurate modelling and game controllers design. :)

[Weta43]

While I appreciate that with your current joystick you might find flying with 'straight' curves difficult, in the end the OP comes down to the fact that you've manually added curve to your controller settings that make the centre part of the travel less responsive, then are surprised that you have to use a lot of movement to get any response from your joystick in the area you've manually reduced the responsiveness from.

Obviously, if your curves were at the default, you wouldn't have to push the stick so far to fly straight & level..

[thinkr]

Shouldn't Force Feedback Controls handle all the dynamics of this and different aircraft Helo/Plane. I'm not sure what others think of the G940 setup and or how it works for helos. Would be nice to hear others opinions on this. Does a force feedback work correctly in game... does the G940 give the sensitivity required your describing? Will there ever be a better solution?

[Echo38]

I have tried that many times. However the position I have to use the Warthog at makes fine tuning my movements when using no response curves at all very difficult. Flying the UH-1, for example, is an absolute chore when using no curves at all. The Warthog is simply too stiff [...]

 

The same goes for older aircraft such as the P-51 and D-9.

 

I can't speak for helicopters, but only for the P-51D and A-10C, as those are the only modules I own at present. My P-51 is twitchy as a cat on caffeine with direct input, yes; I don't disagree with you. I still find it difficult to make ultra-fine near-center motions in the P-51, and I've been using DI since 1999, so it's normal that you struggle with DI when you briefly tried it. Have you tried gradually reducing your curve, by small amounts, to give you time to get used to the more responsive settings, a little bit at a time? I recommend you try this; programming your muscle-memory (or whatever) with the "good habits" (in quotes, because real-life pilots don't have to learn them, 'coz they aren't flying with short-throw spring-centered sticks like we are) can take a very long time.

 

I don't remember how long it took me to learn how to fly precisely with a short-throw stick, but I know it was longer than a couple of weeks, so if you've spent less than a dozen hours trying to practice with no curves, then you "haven't really given it a chance," so to speak. So, given that I don't see any other recourse, if the stick/chair mod is out of the question for now, I suggest at least trying to work on lessening your curve. Maybe reduce it by one point, and fly that way 'till you don't notice a difference, and then reduce another point, and so on.

 

Sorry I can't be more help. The only two solutions I can see are a stick mod, and reducing/removing the curve. (Together, really, but half is better than none.) I'd be recommending the curve reduction even if you weren't having your specific problem with the center unresponsiveness; looking at your picture, you've got a very course curve, and that bites deeply into your potential precision at certain speeds/AoA common in combat. You're going to have a hard time dogfighting with that, because of the potential precision it's taking away from the "hard turning" part of the joystick's range of travel. So, I sympathize with your problem (I have my own share of hand pain & joystick problems), but I really don't know what else to say.

 

Maybe someday commercial simming joysticks will be closer to real aircraft controls ... I expect that'll come around the time someone finally invents a practical jetpack. : /

Edited June 25, 2015 by Echo38

[dok_rp]

While I appreciate that with your current joystick you might find flying with 'straight' curves difficult, in the end the OP comes down to the fact that you've manually added curve to your controller settings that make the centre part of the travel less responsive, then are surprised that you have to use a lot of movement to get any response from your joystick in the area you've manually reduced the responsiveness from.

Obviously, if your curves were at the default, you wouldn't have to push the stick so far to fly straight & level..

 

 

I can't speak for helicopters, but only for the P-51D and A-10C, as those are the only modules I own at present. My P-51 is twitchy as a cat on caffeine with direct input, yes; I don't disagree with you. I still find it difficult to make ultra-fine near-center motions in the P-51, and I've been using DI since 1999, so it's normal that you struggle with DI when you briefly tried it. Have you tried gradually reducing your curve, by small amounts, to give you time to get used to the more responsive settings, a little bit at a time? I recommend you try this; programming your muscle-memory (or whatever) with the "good habits" (in quotes, because real-life pilots don't have to learn them, 'coz they aren't flying with short-throw spring-centered sticks like we are) can take a very long time.

 

I don't remember how long it took me to learn how to fly precisely with a short-throw stick, but I know it was longer than a couple of weeks, so if you've spent less than a dozen hours trying to practice with no curves, then you "haven't really given it a chance," so to speak. So, given that I don't see any other recourse, if the stick/chair mod is out of the question for now, I suggest at least trying to work on lessening your curve. Maybe reduce it by one point, and fly that way 'till you don't notice a difference, and then reduce another point, and so on.

 

Sorry I can't be more help. The only two solutions I can see are a stick mod, and reducing/removing the curve. (Together, really, but half is better than none.) I'd be recommending the curve reduction even if you weren't having your specific problem with the center unresponsiveness; looking at your picture, you've got a very course curve, and that bites deeply into your potential precision at certain speeds/AoA common in combat. You're going to have a hard time dogfighting with that, because of the potential precision it's taking away from the "hard turning" part of the joystick's range of travel. So, I sympathize with your problem (I have my own share of hand pain & joystick problems), but I really don't know what else to say.

 

Maybe someday commercial simming joysticks will be closer to real aircraft controls ... I expect that'll come around the time someone finally invents a practical jetpack. : /

 

 

Thank you very much for the kind response Echo38. I am going to give it a try. You were very informative and elucidative. I will start doing just that. I will start lowering the response curves in all modules and will try getting accustomed to the new response I will have. Let's see how that plays out. If not conclusive to my problems, it will most definitely be a healthy staring point.

 

Thanks. =)

[ElGringo]

I hate the type of loading Warthog has - strongly pre-tensioned spring and almost no force gradient as you deflect the joystick. Extremely non-informative and exhausting feeling... and way far from the real plane feeling. So, I can imagine how irritating is to hold it 1 mm forward applying almost full force.

 

And this a conflict between accurate modelling and game controllers design. :)

 

With a 10 cm extension, the centering force is very low. You almost don' t feel it. You also gain a lot in precision. It goes from 2cm to 5-6cm each way at full deflection.

Since I got mine I am starting to think that it is mandatory to really exploit the warthog' s sensors precision.