Rudder Discussion

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

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Edited August 17, 2015 by jcomm

[SlipBall]

The turn rate will certainly be the same, but given the tail fin ( vertical stabilizer ) and rudder are asymmetric, the airflow over the tail will tend to make it turn right, in the absence of propwash and other prop effects. Thus it will turn easier to the right than to the left, exactly opposite what you show in your video.

 

thats very interesting

[Destroyer37]

The turn rate will certainly be the same, but given the tail fin ( vertical stabilizer ) and rudder are asymmetric, the airflow over the tail will tend to make it turn right, in the absence of propwash and other prop effects. Thus it will turn easier to the right than to the left, exactly opposite what you show in your video.

 

Can you elaborate on this please?

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

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Edited August 17, 2015 by jcomm

[Destroyer37]

I didn't know it had an asymmetric camber, learn something new everyday, thanks for the information.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Destroyer37

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

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Edited August 17, 2015 by jcomm

[SlipBall]

GT 5.0,

 

I tested with the engine stopped, and prop feathered, and had full rudder authority left and right.

 

I can't record a video because I di not use recording software - sorry :-/

 

Oh thats good news jcomm...my CH software always tells me that the rudder is fine, I'll have to find another way to check the rudder calibration, thanks again

[NeilWillis]

Totally happy with the rudder response.

 

Before throwing stones, it is wise to check out your installation/calibration/curves first. Also, I'd be very suspicious of lower grade rudder pedals, because you get a totally different impression with hi fidelity pedals. As for twist grip joystick users...Really? How can you possibly blame the flight model when you use such compromised methods of control?

[SlipBall]

Totally happy with the rudder response.

 

Before throwing stones, it is wise to check out your installation/calibration/curves first. Also, I'd be very suspicious of lower grade rudder pedals, because you get a totally different impression with hi fidelity pedals. As for twist grip joystick users...Really? How can you possibly blame the flight model when you use such compromised methods of control?

 

 

thats pretty dumb...I never would have gotten an answer your way, but thanks for your thoughts anyway :)

[NeilWillis]

It's dumb to rule out your own set up before saying it's ED's fault? Apart from the fact that this wasn't aimed at the OP. OK, then I'll shut up.

 

\\Irony mode on\\

 

However, thinking that ED wouldn't have done plenty of research into how the rudder should respond - that's not dumb at all, cuz of course, Yo-Yo will definitely need your highly informed input to get things right!

 

\\Irony mode off\\

[JST]

How I feel about it is irrelevant, only thing that matters is that it's simulated as accurately as possible.

 

With that said, my flight setup is inadequate to handle the K-4 altogether. Dora is far more suitable for just a 16000M.

[Rangi]

It's dumb to rule out your own set up before saying it's ED's fault? Apart from the fact that this wasn't aimed at the OP. OK, then I'll shut up.

 

\\Sarcasm mode on\\

 

However, thinking that ED wouldn't have done plenty of research into how the rudder should respond - that's not dumb at all, cuz of course, Yo-Yo will definitely need your highly informed input to get things right!

 

\\Sarcasm mode off\\

 

 

fixed it for you:)

[Pilum]

British test pilot Eric Brown had the following to say (Source: Royal Air Force yearbook article ”Four of the finest” from 1975, page 23) about the Me109 G6 he flew in 1944:

 

”Another inherent shortcoming was the lack of any rudder trimming device, necessitating the application of moderate right rudder during climb and considerable left rudder during a dive. Thus, although Gustav pilots tended to use a bunt into a steep dive as an escape manouvre during dogfights, they had some very heavy rudder and elevator control forces to contend with as speed built up”

 

I’m usually sceptical to single source pilot qoutes but since Brown was a respected test pilot and during his career flew many different types of aircraft to access their flight characteristics, the quote above does indeed support the view that both the rudder and elevator in unison should become more heavy at high speeds.

[Sporg]

GT 5.0,

 

I tested with the engine stopped, and prop feathered, and had full rudder authority left and right.

 

I can't record a video because I do not use recording software - sorry :-/

 

+1 to this one.

 

Tested the same, Warthog HOTAS, Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals.

[Solty]

British test pilot Eric Brown had the following to say (Source: Royal Air Force yearbook article ”Four of the finest” from 1975, page 23) about the Me109 G6 he flew in 1944:

 

”Another inherent shortcoming was the lack of any rudder trimming device, necessitating the application of moderate right rudder during climb and considerable left rudder during a dive. Thus, although Gustav pilots tended to use a bunt into a steep dive as an escape manouvre during dogfights, they had some very heavy rudder and elevator control forces to contend with as speed built up”

 

I’m usually sceptical to single source pilot qoutes but since Brown was a respected test pilot and during his career flew many different types of aircraft to access their flight characteristics, the quote above does indeed support the view that both the rudder and elevator in unison should become more heavy at high speeds.

 

 

 

Its not only him Pillum

 

This is excerpt from Mark Hannah, about Buchon 109

109 G:

"The roll rate is very good and very positive below about 250 mph. Above 250 mph however the roll starts to heavy up and up to 300 or so is very similar to a P-51. After that it's all getting pretty solid and you need two hands on the stick for any meaningfull roll rates. Pitch is also delighful at 250 mph and below. It feels very positve and the amount of effort on the control column needed to produce the relevant nose movement seems exactly right to me. The aircraft is perfectly happy carrying out low-level looping maneuvers from 300 mph and below. Above 300 mph one peculiarity is a slight nose down trim change as you accelerate. The rudder is effective and if medium feel up to 300(mph?). It becomes heavier above this speed but regardless the lack of rudder trim is not a problem for the type of operations we carry out with the aeroplane."

- Mark Hanna of the Old Flying Machine Company flying the OFMC Messerschmitt Bf 109 G (Spanish version).

 

"It is at high speeds that lack of a rudder trimmer most seriously inconveniences the pilot. At 215 mph (346 km/h) the a/c is trimmed directionally, no rudder being required. At higher speeds left rudder must be applied, and at 300mph (483 km/h) about 2 deg of left rudder are needed. The rudder is very heavy at high speeds, and a large force is required to apply even such a small amount; this becomes very tiring, and affects the pilot's ability to put on more left rudder to assist a turn to the left. Consequently at high speeds the Me 109 turns more readily to the right than to the left."

"Messerschmitt Me 109 Handling and Maneuverability Tests by the Ministry of Supply. September 1940":

 

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2012/09/contending-with-torque-late-war.html

 

And from the same site:

At altitude and high speed the Bf 109 tended to swing “like a pendulum combined with a rolling movement” to paraphrase an RAF translation of comments by test pilot Heinrich Beauvais... ".. incompletely trimmed ailerons and rudder ruin the feel of the aircraft to uselessness. Therefore, the aircraft must be carefully flown in.. " At high speed, the Bf 109 was " like a brick..", requiring both hands to move the controls. Oscar Boesch commented,

"..When turning the FW 190 as high speed, it only took one hand on the stick to control the aircraft. In the 109 it took two hands and a lot of strength to make a tight turn if you had some speed. This destroyed the feel for flying the aircraft...."

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2012/09/contending-with-torque-late-war.html

"Rudder

The rudder is light, but rather sluggish at low speeds. At 200 mph the sluggishness has disappeared. Between 200 mph and 300 mph the rudder is the lightest of the three controls for movement, but at 300 mph and above, absence of a rudder trimmer is severely felt, the force to prevent sideslip at 400 mph being excessive."

http://www.oocities.org/capecanaveral/hangar/9378/flybf109.html

 

It seems that those reports point 400mph as the point at which the rudder is unpleasantly heavy. Simillar to alerions.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Solty

[Pilum]

OK, good info! :thumbup: So there seems to be quite some weight of evidence supporting that the rudder became stiff at high speed as well then.

[NeilWillis]

I thought Yo-Yo already said that the same "stiffening" we see elsewhere would be coming for the rudder... So calling it ridiculous is pretty ridiculous I think...

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2329641&postcount=39

 

So I consider this issue already addressed. Thread title should be "Happy with the rudder, even though the module is still in Beta and Yo-Yo has said changes would be coming?"

 

And as stated long ago in this thread, the rudder stiffening with speed is a modification already earmarked for the final release of the Kurfurst.

 

So, can we all agree that this thread, and the vote it called for is utterly redundant?

[Solty]

Another thing I've found on other forum. Excerpt from a book:

[Echo38]

You guys ever look at the credits for the WWII modules?

 

There are only about two or three people qualified to do this sort of fix. Yo-Yo (the flight/systems models maths engineer), and one or two of the programmers who implement his models into code.

 

There are indeed a few issues on the existing aircraft that need improvement, and Yo-Yo knows about 'em. But I'm pretty sure he's rather busy with the new birds. I want this sim to be perfect as much as you do--more, perhaps--but rather than starting some sort of forum revolution over your pet issues, I'm exercising a little patience. If you look at the amount of work on the table, and the number of people who are assigned to that work, it's no surprise everything takes a while.

 

"But why doesn't ED hire more people?" Well, that looks like an easy answer to me. At $50 a module (less, on average, 'coz of sales), and the very small number of people who are interested in combat flight sims, enough to buy these modules (how many people are playing multiplayer at any given time, again?), how exactly is ED going to pay the salaries of more highly-qualified engineers & programmers? That's assuming there even are other qualified flight model engineers of this calibre, who are interested in doing work on P.C. flight sims. I certainly don't know of any other flight sim/games with this level of detail in the maths. Do you?

 

Think about the problem a bit before starting polls to try to rally "dissatisfied users," please. I'm all for raising awareness & bringing issues to the attention of those qualified to fix them, but in this case, as has been stated, it's been acknowledged and is on the table. Making a fuss isn't going to accelerate development. Hardcore sim development is slow. I don't like it, but that's how it is. It's really unavoidable--the most complex type of "game" there is, in terms of development work, with a small customer base, paying less per published work than the average gamer. You crunch the numbers.

 

Not that I'm saying that ED can do no wrong. Sometimes problems do need to be pointed out, and I agree that it sometimes seems that these things take forever to fix. I have a number of "pet issues" which have been there for years. However ... perspective. The simple fact is that with such a small workforce, and such a large number of things that need to be done, there's gonna have to be some issues (important ones, even) which get placed on the back burner for long periods of time. That's how this universe works. : /

Edited July 25, 2015 by Echo38

[Solty]

We were just finding info about rudder stiffness, not starting a war really. Maybe of this can help YoYo at work. I was unable to find any hard data on the rudder operation though. Only pilot reports.

[Echo38]

My post was addressed at the OP, Solty. This bit here:

 

In order to have the right rudder corrected I think we need to show some numbers of dissatisfied users.

 

I have no objection to people providing more information about the proper workings of the rudder, and I highly doubt Yo-Yo does, either. To the contrary, such things are quite useful for everyone interested. : )

 

It was specifically the notion (from the OP) of starting a, um, crusade (overstatement, but, you know what I mean) about an already-acknowledged issue (which is indeed taking a while to get fixed). That's what my post was aimed at.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Echo38

[NineLine]

We were just finding info about rudder stiffness, not starting a war really. Maybe of this can help YoYo at work. I was unable to find any hard data on the rudder operation though. Only pilot reports.

 

Rudder stiffening has already been fixed internally. When it will merge with release I do not know right now.

[Echo38]

You guys ever look at the credits for the WWII modules? There are only about two or three people qualified to do this sort of fix. Yo-Yo (the flight/systems models maths engineer), and one or two of the programmers who implement his models into code.

 

Actually, a correction: I based this off of the P-51D credits, but that was completed before more team members were acquired from the defunct RRG studios. So, there might be a few more now. But, my main point stands, regardless. It's still a small team for the amount of complexity & workload.

[NineLine]

Yo-Yo is the FM guy for ED (as far as I know), I dont think there is anyone else. Obviously BST has helped out in parts, such as the F-15C.

[Solty]

Rudder stiffening has already been fixed internally. When it will merge with release I do not know right now.

:cheer3nc:Yay! Cannot wait to feel the "magic":sorcerer: