RU IFF issues.

[GGTharos]

Yes you can. A bug is unintentional operation of the software. It has nothing to do with the real world system - but you have to know the software design spec :)

 

You can't call something a definite bug without fully understanding how the system works in the real world,

[karambiatos]

Never had that happen that I am aware of.

 

how did you come about this conclusion?

Tested it in multiplayer.

[pr1malr8ge]

Bug or intentional feature?

You can't call something a definite bug without fully understanding how the system works in the real world, it could be the case that a transponder still works with the radar in standby. An iff transponder is not a radar so the idea of a transponder triggering off an RWR with a 29 signal is bizarre, that's like getting spiked by every radio wave in the sky.

 

 

Ok, sorry but I have a degree in mechanical engineering. [not exactly in this field but it means I'm not exactly stupid] This is a game with simplified systems[in regards to the FC3 aircraft]. Its pretty easy to conclude if the radar is turned on it will turn the entire system on Both TX and RX. To say it is not a bug when the RWR shows no warning because you think by turning on a simplified system only turns on IFF but manages to SHOW everything else in the radar's FOV is a bit absurd.

 

Second I never said the RWR would trigger a known radar source and display it as a 29. There is no reason it couldn't show up as (U)nknown. Everyone keeps denoting the IFF being on a different frequency band then a radar is some type of magical difference is plain hogwash. They are both a frequency wave that there is an antenna to pick up its signature. It should be perfectly capable of denoting a generalized direction to the emitting source.

Edited July 22, 2015 by pr1malr8ge

[Frostie]

Ok, sorry but I have a degree in mechanical engineering. [not exactly in this field but it means I'm not exactly stupid] This is a game with simplified systems[in regards to the FC3 aircraft]. Its pretty easy to conclude if the radar is turned on it will turn the entire system on Both TX and RX. To say it is not a bug when the RWR shows no warning because you think by turning on a simplified system only turns on IFF but manages to SHOW everything else in the radar's FOV is a bit absurd.

 

Second I never said the RWR would trigger a known radar source and display it as a 29. There is no reason it couldn't show up as (U)nknown. Everyone keeps denoting the IFF being on a different frequency band then a radar is some type of magical difference is plain hogwash. They are both a frequency wave that there is an antenna to pick up its signature. It should be perfectly capable of denoting a generalized direction to the emitting source.

Have you considered that an RWR frequency search range is much higher than that of an IFF interrogator.

[GGTharos]

More to the point, it probably doesn't match what a radar pulse train looks like.

[pr1malr8ge]

Have you considered that an RWR frequency search range is much higher than that of an IFF interrogator.

 

does not matter. If the IFF system registers an active IFF why can it not tell the RWR there was an active signal that does not match its own thus to give a warning.

 

There is no outside reason the two systems cannot talk to each other.

 

I'm not saying they do[in hindsight why on earth would they not] but arguing wave lengths ect isn't the reason they don't. The only reason that would keep them from teaming would be lack of programming and or a physical datalink between the two systems. [again why on earth would they not be. Stupid imho if they are not in real world use.]

[pr1malr8ge]

Adding to this take the a10c it's RWR has I/R and smoke detection these systems would be as part of a cluster. One for Radar, one for IR and one for smoke each talking to the RWR. again I see no reason the IFF could not be part of that cluster. as said. Only thing that would keep that from happening would be Programming or lack of a physical datalink.

[Frostie]

The function of an RWR is to acquire high frequency radar waves used by the obvious threats not low frequency signals and especially not low frequency single ping pulses.

[pr1malr8ge]

The function of an RWR is to acquire high frequency radar waves used by the obvious threats not low frequency signals and especially not low frequency single ping pulses.

 

Then what you're saying is that the A10c's rwr is wrong and cannot display IR or deduce missile launch via smoke trails? Those last I checked are not High Frq waves.

 

You can stop arguing high vs low frequency. Because that is not part of whats going on and none of it is Low frequency. IFF is a known narrow band of high frequency with an encoded data package not just some random generated signal.

Identification Friend or Foe (IFF)

system is the primary positive means of aircraft identification in air defense operations

.

An IFF transponder receives interrogation pulses at one frequency (1

030

MHz), and

sends the reply pulses at a different frequency (1090

MHz).

Before you go off about the above quote saying its the transponder ect.ect. this is not what I'm getting at. I'm saying the two systems can be linked just like the A10s system with its IR and Smoke detection systems.

Low frequency (low freq) or LF is the ITU designation for radio frequencies (RF) in the range of 30 kHz–300 kHz

and last I checked an non matching/recognized IFF interrogation would be a THREAT. Considering if something has the capability to initiate IFF it then it would be a pretty good assumption it has the ability to lock on and attack. To say it's not a threat well then.....[shrugs]
Edited July 22, 2015 by pr1malr8ge

[GGTharos]

Then what you're saying is that the A10c's rwr is wrong and cannot display IR or deduce missile launch via smoke trails? Those last I checked are not High Frq waves.

 

No, the RWR most definitely cannot. The MLWS does that, and it does so by detecting the missile exhaust plume, not smoke trails.

 

The MLWS results are displayed on the same display as the RWR results.

 

You can stop arguing high vs low frequency. Because that is not part of whats going on and none of it is Low frequency. IFF is a known narrow band of high frequency with an encoded data package not just some random generated signal.

 

IFF is VHF/UHF, and doesn't look like a radar pulse train. While the RWR may look at those frequencies, it has about as much duty to report an IFF signal as it does to report your wifi router, if you know what I mean :)

[pr1malr8ge]

No, the RWR most definitely cannot. The MLWS does that, and it does so by detecting the missile exhaust plume, not smoke trails.

 

The MLWS results are displayed on the same display as the RWR results.

 

 

 

IFF is VHF/UHF, and doesn't look like a radar pulse train. While the RWR may look at those frequencies, it has about as much duty to report an IFF signal as it does to report your wifi router, if you know what I mean :)

 

 

Umm you just confirmed exactly what I've been saying. It is multiple systems linked together. Sorry that I did not distinguish that I'm talking about the output display for the pilot along with audible tones.

 

and smoke trail for the most part would be the same as an exhaust plume. you knew what I was getting at.

 

again I still have never said the RWR for radar pickup side was looking for an IFF signal. This comes back to the fact the IFF transponder is setup to look at those frequencies. If it detects a signal that is not friendly it should be able to display that as a threat just the same as the MLWS RWR does.

 

For further reference what I'm going to state TWD [Threat warning display] Since I do not know its exact name. This would be the nice round circle that shows threats in the cockpit.

Edited July 22, 2015 by pr1malr8ge

[Frostie]

You can stop arguing high vs low frequency. Because that is not part of whats going on and none of it is Low frequency. IFF is a known narrow band of high frequency with an encoded data package not just some random generated signal.

 

RWRs typically operates in the range of 2-18 Ghz. When I mentioned high frequencies I meant 'I band' etc. not the initialism UHF.

[Frostie]

again I still have never said the RWR for radar pickup side was looking for an IFF signal. This comes back to the fact the IFF transponder is setup to look at those frequencies. If it detects a signal that is not friendly it should be able to display that as a threat just the same as the MLWS RWR does.

 

 

This is all just speculation of course and you're also relying on the bandit interrogator using the same freq. that your transponder is set to receive. It's like selecting channel 1 on your radio and waiting for Sukhumi to contact you.

[Airmage]

Hi, first of all, IFF doe NOT work through the radar, but is a matter of transponder encoding, that means it is a radio emission by IFF antena, and again not radar.

 

The best thing a modern radar like of an F-15 or an F -16 do is ideintify the aircraft type.

Therefore, the DCS gameplay is an arcade type and not fully realistic. If it were to be realistic it would come down to close range combat and RF vs US type only, or the constant use of AWACS help.

 

http://www.dean-boys.com/extras/iff/iffqa.html

[JunMcKill]

Anyway, the IFF is not 100% reliable as the one simulated by ED, watch the interviews to pilots in "dogfights of desert storm" on youtube all you will see, that they had to wait until the awacs gave the "weapons free" to shoot Iraq's MIG-29 only 8 miles aways from them!

 

When one of the MIG-29 lock to Rodriguez F-15, he assumed that a missile was shot, releasing chaff while break down, so I doubt the capability of the F-15 TEWS to even recognize that a SARH missile is in the air.

 

When the second MIG-29 was locked for Underhill's F-15, the Iraqui turn left and gave a false IFF friendly ID to him (28:50)

 

IMHO the F-15C TEWS simulated in DCS is overrated.

 

look the video from 24:30, sorry if someone don't like my opinion, but it's collected from real pilots experiences.

 

fegFGllS3w8

[Airmage]

Yes, and this brings up another debate: the launch warning of a SARH missiles. If the pilot started to chaff when he was locked, asuming he was fired on, why do we have different launch warning in DCS when you fire an R-27 ER for example.

[Beamscanner]

The radar and IFF system use different emissions (i.e. completely different freqs and pulse parameters).

typically tactical IFF systems on fighters are arranged in an array on the radar aperture itself. The IFF antenna array forms a narrow beam in space through wave-front beam forming. This IFF energy is meant match its propagation with the direction of the radar energy, as it makes sense that the pilot would want to interrogate a target he is seeing/tracking on radar.

 

But just because the IFF antenna is on top of the radar, does not mean that it requires the radar to be turned on. All the IFF system needs is something to que it to a particular direction. Like say, an optical tracking system. The IFF system itself uses a much lower frequency than a radar, around 1 GHz. Airborne Intercept radars typically operate between 8-13 GHz. IFF signals operate much higher than the RWR antennas can see (usually they aren't designed see below 2GHz, as there are not many threat radars below that freq range)

 

Its seems very likely that if the Russians designed their EOS to be able to que the radar, that it should be able to turn IFF on a target without giving away that it's there with its radar signal. I mean the whole point they implemented the passive IR tracking and laser range finder was to be able to engage passively.

 

Also, the A-10 has cameras scattered around that look for visual indications of a missile launch. IR missiles, such as manpads are passive homing. They have no RF emissions, besides perhaps a close-in proximity fuse (but that Omni directional signal is likely low power and designed to operate in a freq range that the enemy cannot see or jam)

Edited May 28, 2017 by Beamscanner

[Alfa]

This comes back to the fact the IFF transponder is setup to look at those frequencies. If it detects a signal that is not friendly it should be able to display that as a threat just the same as the MLWS RWR does.

 

An IFF system is setup to listen for a pre-set encrypted query and respond with a matching password. AFAIK it cannot determine if something else transmitted on the frequency is an IFF interrogation and as such doesn't react to it at all.

[GGTharos]

Anyway, the IFF is not 100% reliable as the one simulated by ED, watch the interviews to pilots in "dogfights of desert storm" on youtube all you will see, that they had to wait until the awacs gave the "weapons free" to shoot Iraq's MIG-29 only 8 miles aways from them!

 

Sorry Jun, but you're not quite right here, I'll try to explain:

 

The F-15 has a lot of BVR ID capability, but even so, procedures may be in place to require AWACS permission to shoot. It has nothing to do with whether the IFF works or not.

 

When one of the MIG-29 lock to Rodriguez F-15, he assumed that a missile was shot, releasing chaff while break down, so I doubt the capability of the F-15 TEWS to even recognize that a SARH missile is in the air.

 

That again is a bad assumption. He's at 4nm away, he needs to be defensive NOW regardless of whether the missile is coming off the rail now, or in 5 sec. There's simply no time to assume anything, or risk taking a missile in the face. If you wait until the launch warning you're done at those ranges.

 

When the second MIG-29 was locked for Underhill's F-15, the Iraqui turn left and gave a false IFF friendly ID to him (28:50)

 

Nope, the Iraqi didn't 'give' a false anything. We don't know why the IFF came up wrong - there are a lot of reasons for AAI to come up incorrect, including equipment malfunction AND having a friendly in the same LOS as your bandit (or just the signal bouncing around). More modern IFF deals with this by also sending ownship position to the interrogator.

 

IMHO the F-15C TEWS simulated in DCS is overrated.

 

It's severely under-rated, like it or not - you don't even know the half of it. And don't get me started on how overrated the other birds are. All equipment has problems in RL, and none of the problems are modeled in DCS for any of this equipment.

Furthermore, a lot of what this equipment can or cannot do, at least for more modern jets, is software defined. You can change what the RWR tells you based on air force philosophy alone.

 

look the video from 24:30, sorry if someone don't like my opinion, but it's collected from real pilots experiences.

 

You have to know what the reasons are for technical failure or for the decision-making at hand.

[GGTharos]

Hello and welcome - since you're an aircrewman, I'll suggest this:

 

I don't know what technologies were in place when you joined, and what you have seen or not, but you have probably encountered a system where you wished that a certain capability was present, or you wondered how that capability could NOT be present ...

 

My point is, you can assume and say things are 'likely' about anything you want, but without the actual operator's manual, you're just assuming. As far as I can tell from the Su-27 operator's manual, the IFF interrogator is tied to the radar and won't operate/interrogate otherwise. Of course, it's also a difficult manual for me to read, so I could be wrong.

 

Its seems very likely that if the Russians designed their EOS to be able to que the radar, that it should be able to turn IFF on a target without giving away that it's there with its radar signal. I mean the whole point they implemented the passive IR tracking and laser range finder was to be able to engage passively.

[GGTharos]

Yeah, nor should you get a warning when there's an active coming at you ... right? Right?

 

Here, I'll tell you why you get that warning: When you pull the trigger, the radar generates an M-Link for the missile it's launching. The M-Link is easily detectable since it is transmitted within that same radar beam, and that is the reason for this particular operation in this game.

 

In real life you can use all sorts of other conditions to trigger a missile launch warning, such as signal strength indicating that the bandit is close enough.

 

In real life, what the RWR tells you is also CLASSIFIED. The sounds, symbols, and other audio cues are classified. So frankly you don't know WHAT the RWR was telling the pilot anyway, because he won't tell you anything that's classified.

 

Of course, there ARE some unclass RWR operator's manuals, and if you're lucky enough to find them, you'll also find that they very specifically are capable of issuing a launch warning.

 

But hey, let's address the most important point of this conversation:

 

The F-15 and MiG-29 were head-to-head at 4nm.

If the MiG had launched right at that time, the missile would take about 8 sec to hit the F-15. So, if the F-15 pilot receives a lock warning, do you think he should be waiting until he gets a launch warning to go defensive? He'll need about 5 sec to put the missile on the beam, and the initial 1-2 sec to react. What do you think, how does 8 sec of missile flight time fit into this?

 

So in other words, this brings up no debate - it only exposes a lack of understanding of air combat.

 

Yes, and this brings up another debate: the launch warning of a SARH missiles. If the pilot started to chaff when he was locked, asuming he was fired on, why do we have different launch warning in DCS when you fire an R-27 ER for example.

Edited July 23, 2015 by GGTharos

[Alfa]

Yes, and this brings up another debate: the launch warning of a SARH missiles. If the pilot started to chaff when he was locked, asuming he was fired on, why do we have different launch warning in DCS when you fire an R-27 ER for example.

 

There are basically two different explanations to this:

 

The first is that the RWR will trigger a lock warning when the enemy radar is changing to STT mode and a launch warning when it detects the radio correction tranmission from launching radar to in-flight missile.

 

The second one(that I find more plausible) is that the RWR triggers a lock warning when the enemy radar goes into STT and a second launch warning when the recieved signal strength is such that you must assume that the enemy radar is close enough for a missile launch.

 

Edit: sniped by GG :D

[GGTharos]

Yep :) The only way to 'tell otherwise' is to have some sort of COMBAT TREE-like capability, or otherwise be or have available some form of ISR platform.

 

An IFF system is setup to listen for a pre-set encrypted query and respond with a matching password. AFAIK it cannot determine if something else transmitted on the frequency is an IFF interrogation and as such doesn't react to it at all.

[JunMcKill]

What version of the AN/ALR-56 was modelated by ED? the C version released before 1995?

 

I know that the Russian RWR of the aircraft modelated in ED is overrated for the era of the simulated RWR (late 80s and 90s), isn't it? What model? Pastel / SPO-32 / L150?

Edited July 23, 2015 by JunMcKill

[GGTharos]

Do you know which version does what? I know of upgrades to various versions, but really, there's no such thing as a specific version of something modeled in the FC modules ... even in the A-10C we couldn't really know.

 

As for the RU birds, SPO-15.

 

What version of the AN/ALR-56 was modelated by ED? the C version released before 1995?

 

I know that the Russian RWR of the aircraft modelated in ED is overrated for the era of the simulated RWR (late 80s and 90s), isn't it? What model? Pastel / SPO-32 / L150?