Beamscanner Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Hello and welcome - since you're an aircrewman, I'll suggest this: I don't know what technologies were in place when you joined, and what you have seen or not, but you have probably encountered a system where you wished that a certain capability was present, or you wondered how that capability could NOT be present ... My point is, you can assume and say things are 'likely' about anything you want, but without the actual operator's manual, you're just assuming. As far as I can tell from the Su-27 operator's manual, the IFF interrogator is tied to the radar and won't operate/interrogate otherwise. Of course, it's also a difficult manual for me to read, so I could be wrong. ?? Did you think that I didn't already know that I was making an educated assumption? If we have a definitive answer, why not post it and end the topic? Also, the concept of IFF only is pretty common. Even ATC radars can operate in beacon only (IFF only) modes, as per FAA regulation 6360.13, titled "Beacon-Only Air Traffic Control Radar Beacon System". And that came out back in the 80s. So it seems like an appropriate assumption to say that the Russians can allow their IFF system to transmit when the radar is not transmitting. Considering all the other effort they made into making the flanker silent.
JunMcKill Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) Test I did with russian aircraft in DCS: IRST lock, id and IR missile launch: - Turn EOS on with radar off - Lock the target - turn on the radar (i key), in this case, the radar will not emit and warn to the locked enemy (even F-15), the radar activation is working only as IFF and show you if the locked aircraft is friend or foe. (A or AFR in the HUD) - select an IR missile - the LA message in HUD will be static - You can launch the IR missile with no warning signal on the other aircraft IRST lock, id and radar missile launch: - Turn EOS on with radar off - Lock the target - turn on the radar (i key), in this case, the radar will not emit and warn to the locked enemy (even F-15), the radar activation is working only as IFF and show you if the locked aircraft is friend or foe. (A or AFR in the HUD) - Select a radar guided missile (R-27R, R-77 or R-27ER) - The LA message in HUD will begin blinking because the radar is OFF - Turn the EOS off with the radar still on, with that, the radar will be activated and the lock signal will appear in the F-15 or any enemy RWR - the LA message in HUD will be static - Launch the radar missile if you are above RMIN Edited July 23, 2015 by JunMcKill
GGTharos Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 ?? Did you think that I didn't already know that I was making an educated assumption? If we have a definitive answer, why not post it and end the topic? No, I'm saying that with your qualification people will essentially take it as 'this is how it is', and: Also, the concept of IFF only is pretty common. Even ATC radars can operate in beacon only (IFF only) modes, as per FAA regulation 6360.13, titled "Beacon-Only Air Traffic Control Radar Beacon System". And that came out back in the 80s. So it seems like an appropriate assumption to say that the Russians can allow their IFF system to transmit when the radar is not transmitting. Considering all the other effort they made into making the flanker silent.Yes, and the F-15 has a beacon mode, etc etc ... but no, it isn't anywhere close to an appropriate assumption for the Su-27. It's just like the assumption that R-27ET has datalink like R-27ER because well, the ER has it and you're just changing the seekers ... turns out it's not like that (for the radar model/weapon control system we're familiar with). My point is that you can claim it's a 'good assumption' all you want, and you're at best 50/50 on being right if you don't know what the actual equipment does. As for the flanker being designed to be 'silent', I don't believe that is the case. You can use it that way in some situations, but the IRST is there to back-up an old radar that is easily disabled by EW. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
GGTharos Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 I'm fairly certain it's a bug (ie. unintended operation within the game), but like I said, I'm not terribly worried about. Test I did with russian aircraft in DCS: IRST lock, id and IR missile launch: - Turn EOS on with radar off - Lock the target - turn on the radar (i key), in this case, the radar will not emit and warn to the locked enemy (even F-15), the radar activation is working only as IFF and show you if the locked aircraft is friend or foe. (A or AFR in the HUD) - select an IR missile - the LA message in HUD will be static - You can launch the IR missile with no warning signal on the other aircraft IRST lock, id and radar missile launch: - Turn EOS on with radar off - Lock the target - turn on the radar (i key), in this case, the radar will not emit and warn to the locked enemy (even F-15), the radar activation is working only as IFF and show you if the locked aircraft is friend or foe. (A or AFR in the HUD) - Select a radar guided missile (R-27R, R-77 or R-27ER) - The LA message in HUD will begin blinking because the radar is OFF - Turn the EOS off with the radar still on, with that, the radar will be activated and the lock signal will appear in the F-15 or any enemy RWR - the LA message in HUD will be static - Launch the radar missile if you are above RMIN [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
karambiatos Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 But having something locked with radar then turning the EOS on and radar off, the target keeps getting radar lock warning, that is a pretty serious bug. A 1000 flights, a 1000 crashes, perfect record. =&arrFilter_pf[gameversion]=&arrFilter_pf[filelang]=&arrFilter_pf[aircraft]=&arrFilter_DATE_CREATE_1_DAYS_TO_BACK=&sort_by_order=TIMESTAMP_X_DESC"] Check out my random mods and things
JunMcKill Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 But having something locked with radar then turning the EOS on and radar off, the target keeps getting radar lock warning, that is a pretty serious bug. Yeah, the trick is to turn on the EOS first.
JunMcKill Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 Indeed, no problem for me, but if it's fixed in the future, FC will need a key to turn IFF on/off besides the radar operation I'm fairly certain it's a bug (ie. unintended operation within the game), but like I said, I'm not terribly worried about.
Beamscanner Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 No, I'm saying that with your qualification people will essentially take it as 'this is how it is' ah.. Yes, and the F-15 has a beacon mode, etc etc ... but no, it isn't anywhere close to an appropriate assumption for the Su-27. It's just like the assumption that R-27ET has datalink like R-27ER because well, the ER has it and you're just changing the seekers ... turns out it's not like that (for the radar model/weapon control system we're familiar with). My point is that you can claim it's a 'good assumption' all you want, and you're at best 50/50 on being right if you don't know what the actual equipment does. As for the flanker being designed to be 'silent', I don't believe that is the case. You can use it that way in some situations, but the IRST is there to back-up an old radar that is easily disabled by EW. I don't see why it wouldn't be appropriate to assume something that makes sense. I don't mean to say its true, but the reason we make assumptions in the first place is because the truth is unknown to us. It very well could be that the flanker requires its radar on for IFF to work. But it doesn't make sense to needlessly limit your system architecture that way. Though quite often the truth doesn't make sense. Whether the passive ability of the flanker was a focus or not, it definitely has significance in the air. Especially when you're provided a great picture from ground radar. A small tweak to the IFF system would go a long way. Also a discrete datalink for the ET would improve it in so many ways! Silly to think that Russian engineers would omit something already in place. Perhaps funding?
Airmage Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 After all, it only depends wich of the assumptions are the standards for "understanding of air combat". Maybe we should just play the game how it is. Cheers.
Alfa Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 Test I did with russian aircraft in DCS: IRST lock, id and IR missile launch: - Turn EOS on with radar off - Lock the target - turn on the radar (i key), in this case, the radar will not emit and warn to the locked enemy (even F-15), the radar activation is working only as IFF and show you if the locked aircraft is friend or foe. (A or AFR in the HUD) - select an IR missile - the LA message in HUD will be static - You can launch the IR missile with no warning signal on the other aircraft IRST lock, id and radar missile launch: - Turn EOS on with radar off - Lock the target - turn on the radar (i key), in this case, the radar will not emit and warn to the locked enemy (even F-15), the radar activation is working only as IFF and show you if the locked aircraft is friend or foe. (A or AFR in the HUD) - Select a radar guided missile (R-27R, R-77 or R-27ER) - The LA message in HUD will begin blinking because the radar is OFF - Turn the EOS off with the radar still on, with that, the radar will be activated and the lock signal will appear in the F-15 or any enemy RWR - the LA message in HUD will be static - Launch the radar missile if you are above RMIN Thats AFAIK how it should work concerning EOS/radar cooperative mode - i.e. when EOS is the primary sensor used, the radar will be in stand-by with the antenna slaved to the angular position of the target as obtained by the EOS and only "kick in"(start actively scanning) in case the IR lock is lost. There is a similar case(not modelled in the sim) when the radar is operating under GCI control - i.e. where target information is provided by an external source. The onboard radar is cued to look in the direction of a target , but not actively emitting until the target is close enough for a missile launch. As far as I can tell the IFF is a completely seperate system with its own transponders and seperate set of controls(located on the RH console) and as far as I can see only needs some way of linking an interrogation response to the angular position of a contact and display it to the pilot - of course if you don't have any means other than radar to find that position it would be required, but I don't see any reason why it couldn't be achieved with an EOS lock as well. So I am not so sure that it is an unintended feature in the sim - mind you, I don't know and I agree with GG, that just because something appears logical at the first glance doesn't necessarily mean that it is :) ....there are plenty of examples where things were assumed to work in a particular way because it made sense only to be refuted later when more information becomes available. JJ
Alfa Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) It's just like the assumption that R-27ET has datalink like R-27ER because well, the ER has it and you're just changing the seekers ... Well thats actually a pretty good reason to conclude that it dosen't have datalink :) Also a discrete datalink for the ET would improve it in so many ways! Silly to think that Russian engineers would omit something already in place. Perhaps funding? Basicallly the R-27ET/datalink thing stems from the misconception that the "autopilot" section of the missile common to all variants contains the INS - it doesn't. The autopilot section merely recieves steering cues from the seeker section and operates the control surfaces accordingly - i.e. really performs the same task as the flight control system of an aircraft. The INS is an integrated part of the SARH seeker, so replacing it with an IR seeker means no INS/radio correction. Edited July 24, 2015 by Alfa JJ
pr1malr8ge Posted July 25, 2015 Author Posted July 25, 2015 This is all fine an dandy. as with anything it is speculation. How ever if say this is IFF only it still would be safe to assume that it can easily be observed as a direct ping to the aircraft being identified. Therefor it is just as easy for the transponder in the f15 to recognize it is being actively painted on that frq and initiate a warning on the Threat display. To add to this, saying it can't is just the same as saying you cannot identify radar either. Both are radio transmissions and both can be displayed with an approximation to relative bearing to the nose. High/low/middle and everything else can be seen. If you argue it cannot be. Then please explain how they can tell the difference between different radars mig 29, f15, f14, etc. etc. The answer is simple stolen/defected/allied aircraft brought in for recording. With that is is very safe to assume the IFF system was also recorded. Thus pretty easy to program and link the IFF system into the Threat Display of those known signals. Even then it actually probably does not even have to be tied to the IFF. If you know the frequency and frequency modulation used the RWR could see it also with out needing the IFF transponders input. For the sake of this game being simplified systems having the systems do that should not be in game. For the WIN [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]If your desired effect on the target is making the pilot defecate his pants laughing then you can definitely achieve it with a launch like that.
JunMcKill Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 There is a similar case(not modelled in the sim) when the radar is operating under GCI control - i.e. where target information is provided by an external source. The onboard radar is cued to look in the direction of a target , but not actively emitting until the target is close enough for a missile launch. You're right the Rubin "encounter" (Vstryehchya) mode with GCI control is not modeled in the game, only the independent search. And I quote: "Radar Modes (Description from N-019EB export variant manual) Radar scan limits in azimuth: ±65º Radar scan limits in elevation: +56º, -36º Mode "V" (Vstryehchya) : Encounter Encounter mode is the main search mode used in interception, as it gives the longest detection ranges and the least false returns. It uses a High PRF mode which can detect closing targets only in the velocity range of 230 - 2500km/h at altitudes from 30m to 23,000m. The display is calibrated to a maximum range of 150km. Target can be up to 10,000m above or 6,000m below the host aircraft's own altitude. A typical 3 sq m RCS fighter target can be detected at 50-70 km and tracked at 40-60 km. If the target is flying below 3,000m reduces the detection range to 40-70 km and tracking range to 30-60km. Two basic scan patterns are used. When the system is under direct GCI control via datalink, a 6 bar elevation raster scan is used. This scan covers a sector of 40° in azimuth at ranges up to 30km, 30° at ranges of 30-55 km, and 20° above 55km within the scan limits given above. The distance to target and other useful information is supplied by GCI command, and the direction of the scan is automatically cued by CGI command towards the desired target. "
SDsc0rch Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 just want to put this out there... because radar and IFF are so closely associated, i think there might be room for confusion perhaps i am misunderstanding, but it sounds like there is the idea when an a/c is interrogated, that interrogation should appear on the TEWS - that is not the case IFF is a separate system and there is a cockpit indication when your aircraft responds to an interrogation - and there is also a cockpit indication if an interrogation is received and your system was unable to give a positive response (that would be a good thing to know - would it not?) so.. TEWS will only report *radars* (even then, only when they meet prescribed specifications - it is *definitely* not a perfect system - and let me tell you, that fact is most certainly exploited) and IFF, while it operates through and in conjunction with the radar, is a separate system and displays information on the VSD as well as other cockpit displays i7-4790K | Asus Sabertooth Z97 MkI | 16Gb DDR3 | EVGA GTX 980 | TM Warthog | MFG Crosswind | Panasonic TC-58AX800U [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
JunMcKill Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 just want to put this out there... because radar and IFF are so closely associated, i think there might be room for confusion perhaps i am misunderstanding, but it sounds like there is the idea when an a/c is interrogated, that interrogation should appear on the TEWS - that is not the case IFF is a separate system and there is a cockpit indication when your aircraft responds to an interrogation - and there is also a cockpit indication if an interrogation is received and your system was unable to give a positive response (that would be a good thing to know - would it not?) so.. TEWS will only report *radars* (even then, only when they meet prescribed specifications - it is *definitely* not a perfect system - and let me tell you, that fact is most certainly exploited) and IFF, while it operates through and in conjunction with the radar, is a separate system and displays information on the VSD as well as other cockpit displays It depends of the RWR simulated in DCS, and was a question I did some time ago, read this: The AN/ALR-56M Advanced Radar Warning Receiver (ARWR) continuously detects and intercept RF signals in certain frequency ranges and analyzes and separates threat signals from non-threat signals. It displays threat signals to pilot on a priority basis and provides efficient and effective logistical support to the using command activities for the system. It contributes to full-dimensional protection by improving individual aircraft probability of survival through improved aircrew situational awareness of the radar guided threat environment. An RWR processor/memory capacity upgrade was required to allow incorporation of software algorithm enhancements (RAD, etc) to fix known threat ambiguity and false alarm problems. The F-16 SPO initiated an ALR-56M processor upgrade program which will provide a common processor for both the ALR-56M/56C configurations; the F-16 SPO committed funds to the common NRE tasks and the F-15 SPO is required to only fund unique F-15 RWR requirements. This upgrade will replace 7 SRUs with one. The ALR-56M includes a fast scanning superhet receiver, superhet controller, analysis processor, low band receiver/power supply, and four quadrant receivers. The ALR-56M is designed to provide improved performance in a dense signal environment and improved detection of modern threat signals, as compared to the version of the ALR-69 which it replaced. A miniaturized version of the F-15's ALR-56C, the ALR-56M is a form and fit replacement for the ALR-69 RWR in the F-16 and other aircraft. It is installed primarily in F-16 Block 40 (Close Air Support - CAS) aircraft and above. ALR-69 upgrades are ongoing for earlier blocks of the F-16 and some other aircraft. The ALR-56M is the RWR chosen for integration into the open architecture Defensive System Upgrade Program (DSUP) in the B-1B bomber Conventional Mission Upgrade Program.
SDsc0rch Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 uhm.... okay? i7-4790K | Asus Sabertooth Z97 MkI | 16Gb DDR3 | EVGA GTX 980 | TM Warthog | MFG Crosswind | Panasonic TC-58AX800U [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Airmage Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 TEWS and IFF are not related to each other. IFF interrogator antena is directional, works with the radar, sends IFF unique interrogation code to radar locked target. IFF receiver antena is not directional, it only receives a simple radio confirmatin message without knowing the direction it came from (if the target is friendly, if target is foe, there will be no reply.
Airmage Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 I think it would be better if an IFF command was introduced in the game rather than having different symbology on the top-down view in bvr mode for discovered contacts (square or dot for F15, - or = for russian fighters).
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