OT kinda : Venuzula may sell their f16's and replace with the SU37????

[emenance]

Was in the news that Ugo chavez may sell the country's f16's because the US is not supplying high tech upgrades anymore. Ugo then has stated that he may see the f16's to IRan or China and resupply the country with SU37 aircraft that he called the best in the world.

 

Both actions break the contract that prohibited the sale of the planes and promised continued support for the f16's.

 

 

Hmmmmm............

[Shaman]

Could you link to original article? thank you!

[Pilotasso]

Redundant thread, read the one on the SU-35.

[Guest Hell Sqn Protos]

Was in the news that Ugo chavez may sell the country's f16's because the US is not supplying high tech upgrades anymore. Ugo then has stated that he may see the f16's to IRan or China and resupply the country with SU37 aircraft that he called the best in the world.

 

Both actions break the contract that prohibited the sale of the planes and promised continued support for the f16's.

 

 

Hmmmmm............

 

 

S~!

 

Good for him !!

 

I wish Greece had the same courage of conviction. I would LOVE to see us get SU - 37 (47) ?

 

[britgliderpilot]

The FSW jobbie is the S-37 or Su47 . . . . . . the Su37 is effectively an Su35 fitted with thrust vectoring and a couple of other toys.

 

 

Chavez is a bit of a loony, and should be watched carefully to make sure he doesn't do something really stoopid . . . . . . but that's an aside from the aircraft.

[GGTharos]

Actually Greece is doing fine using aircraft that actually work, are 10 years ahead technologically of their russian-made counter-parts, and as always, Greece doesn't waste time drooling over aircraft which haven't even been fitted with combat avionics ... like the S-47. ;)

 

The next big thing will be the JSF, and it will out-do any Russian aircraft that's out there right now, purely due to first-look first-shot capability. The JSF is meant to be exported.

 

S~!

 

Good for him !!

 

I wish Greece had the same courage of conviction. I would LOVE to see us get SU - 37 (47) ?

 

[nscode]

Greece wouldn't even need fighter aircraft if they were alowed to inport SAMs that actually shoot down smthing ;)

[britgliderpilot]

The next big thing will be the JSF, and it will out-do any Russian aircraft that's out there right now, purely due to first-look first-shot capability. The JSF is meant to be exported.

 

Mmmn . . . . . . yep, I'd agree with that :)

[Pilotasso]

The greek airforce has made 1 bad moove though. It cancelled the Eurofighter for a bigger fleet of more F-16's wich IMHO will have to be replaced in the next 20 years anyway, by the eurofighter or the JSF. In the end they may have lost some money with this as well as some tactical advantage the eurofighter would give them. All for short term savings.

[Shaman]

The next big thing will be the JSF, and it will out-do any Russian aircraft that's out there right now, purely due to first-look first-shot capability. The JSF is meant to be exported.

Mmmn . . . . . . yep, I'd agree with that :)

And so do I. Instead of 48 F-16C Block 52+, our AF should have got like 20-30 F-35A. Where one F-35 is meant to be 4 times more effective then F-16 - means you need less aircrafts to complete assigned task. Unfortunatelly it wasn't me who decided what planes Poland gets.

 

[Pilotasso]

And so do I. Instead of 48 F-16C Block 52+, our AF should have get like 20-30 F-35A. Where one F-35 is meant to be 4 times more effective then F-16 - means you need less aircrafts to complete assigned task. Unfortunatelly it wasn't me who decided what planes Poland gets.

 

 

I think though, those F-16's poland is geting are powerfull enough for their needs. They are pretty much to most advanced versions in europe and I dont think Poland needs more firepower than this. Not for their relevant role in europe nor in the world and for the kind of economical avaiability I think the F-16 is pretty much spot on untill the rest of the country gets developed enough to aspire higher flights. ;)

 

The current falcon config Poland is getting is a bit of overkill anyway. And I dont think the F-35 would be adequate specialy considering that this deal was made with special consideration for polands involvement in the midle east.

[emenance]

Could you link to original article? thank you!

 

Just google chavez f16

[Guest Hell Sqn Protos]

Actually Greece is doing fine using aircraft that actually work, are 10 years ahead technologically of their russian-made counter-parts, and as always, Greece doesn't waste time drooling over aircraft which haven't even been fitted with combat avionics ... like the S-47. ;)

 

The next big thing will be the JSF, and it will out-do any Russian aircraft that's out there right now, purely due to first-look first-shot capability. The JSF is meant to be exported.

 

Greece is doing crap with the 'basic' F16 and it population knows it. That is why the government is under intense pressure to look elsewhere. Can you say Eurofighter?

 

As for calling the 37 ten years behind the F16......... well there is no civil response to that. Does not compute. When it is operational front line fighter do you really believe it won't be able to stand up to a viper?

 

 

P.S.

To the gentlemen who made the comment about Sams. Right on !!! We are FORCED to buy this crap. Same with the F16s.

[Guest IguanaKing]

If by "37" you are talking about the aircraft in the photo you posted, he's right. That aircraft is a test bed and technology demonstrator, which makes it about as useful as an X-29 in a combat role. ;)

 

I wouldn't necessarily say the Russians are ten years behind us though, their priorities are just focused in a different direction. Like I said in another thread, much of it goes back to our respective experiences and lessons from WWII. Who is ahead technologically? Well...I guess much of that depends on the environment the aircraft ends up being employed in.

[GGTharos]

... well there is no civil response to that. Does not compute. When it is operational front line fighter do you really believe it won't be able to stand up to a viper?

 

... uh. When will it be operational? ;) And what's it gonna do when it gets an AMRAAM pointed at it?

 

Say 'hey, check out the wings, I'm actually flying THAT way!' and hope the missile will go in the opposite direction? ;)

 

Quite frankly, I just don't think it will be operational. The FSW concept has been tested and tried for a long, long time, and the preference is still quite largely with the swept-back wing.

 

Besides, the FSW barely offers it anything over a TVC'ed Su-35. I don't understand what's gotpeople so enamored with it. Is it novel? Uh, well, no, actually, it's rather -old- technology, believe it or not. Forward swept wing. Whoopiddidoo. How about avionics? Does it have any?

 

In an era where fighter performance is based on starting BVR and transitioning to WVR, it is the ability to not be destroyed far out that counts, and so far, the S-47 doesn't ... even have a radar ;)

 

Its cousins, the Su-35 and Su-30MK(Stick in whatever letter you want in here) are not yet battle-proven.

 

On the other hand, the F-15, F-16 are, and thus there is a high probability that their SUCCESSORS will do just as well.

 

 

As for being -forced- to buy stuff, I agree, but this is on the political side of things so I don't want to touch it.

[Guest Hell Sqn Protos]

S~! GG

 

Apparently NOT vaporware after all. Though it seems materials composition is still not up to the tortional forces that the forward swept wing demands. Either way a promising fighter.

 

 

The Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut (Russian: Су-47 "Беркут" - golden eagle), designated S-32 and/or S-37 during initial development, is an experimental supersonic jet fighter developed by the Sukhoi Corporation. The NATO reporting name for this aircraft is "Firkin".

 

The distinguishing feature of the aircraft is its forward swept wing, similar to that of the Grumman X-29.

 

Originally known as the S-37, Sukhoi redesignated its advanced test aircraft as the Su-47 in 2002. The change reflected the company's decision to market the design as a production fighter rather than as an experimental prototype. Also commonly referred to as the Berkut (Golden Eagle), the Su-47 was originally built as Russia's principal testbed for composite materials and sophisticated fly-by-wire control systems. The aircraft makes use of forward-swept wings allowing superb maneuverability and operation at angles of attack up to 45° or more. The advantages of forward sweep have long been known as such wings offer lower wave drag, reduced bending moments, and delayed stall when compared to more traditional wing shapes. Unfortunately, forward sweep also induces twisting strong enough to rip the wings off an aircraft built of conventional materials. To solve this problem, the Su-47 makes use of composite materials carefully tailored to resist twisting while still allowing the wing to bend for improved aerodynamic behavior.

 

To reduce development costs, the S-37 borrowed the forward fuselage, vertical tails, and landing gear of the Su-27 family. Nonetheless, the aircraft includes reduced radar signature features (including radar absorbent materials), an internal weapons bay, and space set aside for an advanced radar. Though similar in overall concept to the American X-29 research aircraft of the 1980s, the Su-47 is about twice the size and far closer to an actual combat aircraft than the US design. Like the X-29 though, the S-37 was primarily a technology demonstrator, one intended to lay the foundation for the next Russian fighter. Such a fighter must not only be as advanced as the US F-22 and Eurofighter Typhoon, but must also compete for funding with the more conventional MiG 1.42. However, Sukhoi is now attempting to market the Su-47 to the Russian military and foreign customers as a production fighter in its own right. Initial reaction was not good, but the aircraft's performance has been so impressive that the Russian government has made funds available for further testing of the design.

 

Recent reports have suggested that the Su-47 will eventually emerge as Russia's "5th Generation" fighter, which is seen as a competitor to the American Joint Strike Fighter. However, Sukhoi has apparently decided to abandon the forward-swept wings of the S-37, and the future production model will return to a more conventional wing layout. If true, Sukhoi may have reached the same conclusion as NASA did following testing of the X-29--the benefits of forward-swept wings are just not worth the extra cost and complexity associated with their design and manufacture.

 

Most of the research and development of the aircraft will be funded by India. The aircraft is set to go into production for the Russian Airforce and the Indian airforce around 2009.

[Guest IguanaKing]

With all due respect to your link, 13th, the US did s**tloads with the F-16 and F-111 in the AFTI program. They also did s**tloads with the VISTA and ACTIVE programs. It doesn't mean those aircraft were ever fielded as service aircraft. They were all just small parts of evolving aviation technology. Clinging to an airframe because of an internet article and how "sexy" the aircraft is, really doesn't mean anything. Just so ya know. ;)

[Guest Hell Sqn Protos]

S~!

 

Agreed, however Russia is working on a Fifth Generation fighter under the PaK auspices and the framework is the Su 47. India is the chief partner and lets face it does anyone believe that no one will compete with the F22?

 

Russia has a long history of innovative Fighter design and to think it will all stop now is not very realistic imho. The forwards swept wing in all likely hood will not be in, (sad) but until materials technologies catch up, thats the way it has to be. As for stealth........... well can you say plasma technology.

 

Lets see what the future holds.............;)

[Colt40Five]

I have the greatest respect for the aviation indusry of Russia. I think they do more with less than anyone on the planet. The fact is that Brains is not the issue here, money is.

 

Unless something dramatic happens in the monetary fortunes of the Russian Air Forces, they will continue to have to do more with less for the forseeable future. Just look at some of the amazing A/C they have that have been in development since the late 80's that they just cannot afford to purchase in any serious numbers(ka-50, su-25t, MiG-29M/SM, etc). Also when the Soviet union broke up a significant portion of the aviation industy and equiptment went to the new republics. Add to that the limited number of flight hours they can afford to give their pilots for training and you have a recipe for hard times.

 

All of which is a true shame. I could give a crap less about the poltics of it all, I just love planes. I would love to see what a fully funded Russian aviation industry could come up with. but IMHO they will not be able to field (they can develop all they want) a system to match the raptor/jsf in any significant numbers.

[Guest IguanaKing]

No dispute here...Russia has many of the best Aeronautical programs in the world.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

The next big thing will be the JSF, and it will out-do any Russian aircraft that's out there right now, purely due to first-look first-shot capability. The JSF is meant to be exported.

Stop by Belgrade air museum at Surcin airport. You can get some of that "first look" technology as souvenir! ;)

[Guest Hell Sqn Protos]

. I could give a crap less about the poltics of it all, I just love planes. I would love to see what a fully funded Russian aviation industry could come up with.

 

 

+1 :thumbup:

[GGTharos]

Stop by Belgrade air museum at Surcin airport. You can get some of that "first look" technology as souvenir! ;)

 

Did your planes hit anything?

 

No?

 

 

Thought so. ;)

 

Don't bother with the usual excuses, I know them.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Don't bother with the usual excuses, I know them.

No more comments from me here.

 

Best regards,

 

:pilotfly:

[wsoul2k]

The FSW jobbie is the S-37 or Su47 . . . . . . the Su37 is effectively an Su35 fitted with thrust vectoring and a couple of other toys.

 

 

Chavez is a bit of a loony, and should be watched carefully to make sure he doesn't do something really stoopid . . . . . . but that's an aside from the aircraft.

 

 

Dont worry brit we already are watching him ...trust me ;)