Flying in the mountains in FC3 - is it wack?

[Frostie]

I pointed out that the tactics employed in this sim eos is used as a primary sensor and I was argued/flamed for it.

 

What!?

I just disagreed with you that is all, get that chip off your shoulder buddy.

[Frostie]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=150315

 

Please read page 4 paragraph 1 the last sentence

page 4 paragraph 3 the last sentence on the page.

page 20 paragraph 2 sentence 1 in backets.

 

There's more into that guide that says the Radar is basically not to be used.

 

In the above mentioned post you praised the OP about how good it is etc yet by your indication here you should be telling him it's wrong Flanker/drivers should not be flying that way.

 

So with that please continue with your Hippocratic posts.

I said you need to conceal and Flank, but how do you find the bandit in the first place, with the radar of course and how do you bring the F-15 out of the atmosphere to your playing field where you can conceal and flank him, with R27ER. Radar and Eos are as crucial as each other.

Against cheap F-15 pilots you can skirt their rwr with ease, try it against decent pilots.

 

What you stated originally is that the sim is unrealistic because Flanker pilots primary tool is eos, now I put it to you that it is actually most of the opponents they are facing that have unrealistic ability and therefore make easy targets of themselves.

I don't know how best to put this to you without sounding bigheaded but as a squadron we've prioritised flying squad matches flying only the Flanker against virtually every squad and aircraft we could for the last 5 years, we've never lost.

We rely primarily on radar then eos, there is no better way to achieve SA than with the radar.

If we'd used eos as a primary tool we would have never achieved such success

Edited October 21, 2015 by Frostie

[Shaman]

we could for the last 5 years, we've never lost.

We rely primarily on radar then eos, there is no better way to achieve SA than with the radar.

If we'd used eos as a primary tool we would have never achieved such success

 

It shall be actually 8 years this year December, http://www.51st.org/results.html since inception.

Frostie said it, none of these wins can be credited to EOS equipment or terrain hugging.

It is worth noting Su-27 FM just as F-15C FM has been changing over these 8 years from patch to patch, including missiles physics behavior and sensor behavior, and we have always felt on disadvantage against F-15C performance pilots.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Shaman

[pr1malr8ge]

I said you need to conceal and Flank, but how do you find the bandit in the first place, with the radar of course and how do you bring the F-15 out of the atmosphere to your playing field where you can conceal and flank him, with R27ER. Radar and Eos are as crucial as each other.

Against cheap F-15 pilots you can skirt their rwr with ease, try it against decent pilots.

Again you're going around avoiding the issue. As far as a chip on my shoulder nah man. You're statement says it. It reads that the majority of Flanker/Fulcrum pilots never use the EOS as a sole and primary sensor.

Stop back peddling. Why are you bringing up Cheap f15 pilots. Seems you're the one with a chip on his shoulder. If you didn't you might have said new/inexperienced pilots of both US and Russian equipment. So please continue with that large chip

What you stated originally is that the sim is unrealistic because Flanker pilots primary tool is eos, now I put it to you that it is actually most of the opponents they are facing that have unrealistic ability and therefore make easy targets of themselves.

Yes I did say that is unrealistic. Prove me otherwise that in any conflict using these planes that the flanker/fulcrum in real life would go hide in the mountains with eos only and act as an air defense or as air superiority. I'm pretty sure you cannot.

Your idea of what is unrealistic is just that, your idea. What is better about this statement is that the true reality is that the f15c in game at the time we started this thread 1.2.xxx the flight model could not defend it self in the upper flight regime due to TRO so unrealistic inability would be more of a sound statement to say. But yeah your only valid argument might be the STR/ITR but it's not wildy off the charts and for the most part as MP as a whole not many STR/ITR issues occur where two players of equal skill in that arena face off. Keep in mind those who mostly complaining about turning probably don't have a clue. I suck [and I admit it] at BFM but I've seen all to many times pilots in flankers with full load outs and probably full fuel trying to start turning with me and pressing the S key etc etc and just get pummeled. I'm good enough to understand that I'm not going to think about turning unless I'm sub 50% fuel and 50%ALO otherwise I'm keeping my distance.

 

I don't know how best to put this to you without sounding bigheaded but as a squadron we've prioritised flying squad matches flying only the Flanker against virtually every squad and aircraft we could for the last 5 years, we've never lost.

We rely primarily on radar then eos, there is no better way to achieve SA than with the radar.

If we'd used eos as a primary tool we would have never achieved such success

You're being bigheaded bringing this into this statement. As we are not talking about one squadron. Nor do I care about your achievements. I've never argued the soundness of tactics in this sim pertaining to MP events as what works for one might not for others or what ever.

I Stated the reason for why as a question was asked that the fights are in the dirt. You're the one with the chip on his shoulder and bring in your groups achievements as some smoke and mirrors to detract from what was said.

Edited October 21, 2015 by pr1malr8ge

[Frostie]

Again you're going around avoiding the issue. As far as a chip on my shoulder nah man. You're statement says it. It reads that the majority of Flanker/Fulcrum pilots never use the EOS as a sole and primary sensor.

Stop back peddling. Why are you bringing up Cheap f15 pilots. Seems you're the one with a chip on his shoulder. If you didn't you might have said new/inexperienced pilots of both US and Russian equipment. So please continue with that large chip

 

Yes I did say that is unrealistic. Prove me otherwise that in any conflict using these planes that the flanker/fulcrum in real life would go hide in the mountains with eos only and act as an air defense or as air superiority. I'm pretty sure you cannot.

Your idea of what is unrealistic is just that, your idea. What is better about this statement is that the true reality is that the f15c in game at the time we started this thread 1.2.xxx the flight model could not defend it self in the upper flight regime due to TRO so unrealistic inability would be more of a sound statement to say. But yeah your only valid argument might be the STR/ITR but it's not wildy off the charts and for the most part as MP as a whole not many STR/ITR issues occur where two players of equal skill in that arena face off. Keep in mind those who mostly complaining about turning probably don't have a clue. I suck [and I admit it] at BFM but I've seen all to many times pilots in flankers with full load outs and probably full fuel trying to start turning with me and pressing the S key etc etc and just get pummeled. I'm good enough to understand that I'm not going to think about turning unless I'm sub 50% fuel and 50%ALO otherwise I'm keeping my distance.

 

 

You're being bigheaded bringing this into this statement. As we are not talking about one squadron. Nor do I care about your achievements. I've never argued the soundness of tactics in this sim pertaining to MP events as what works for one might not for others or what ever.

I Stated the reason for why as a question was asked that the fights are in the dirt. You're the one with the chip on his shoulder and bring in your groups achievements as some smoke and mirrors to detract from what was said.

 

Why are you so angry? This is a forum for discussion if you can't handle someone having a different opinion to you then best you leave it.

Cheap F-15 pilots means cheap kills, you don't have to work to get them, nothing derogatory. Just drop the bitter tone please.

 

The fact is you stated that DCS is unrealistic because Flanker pilots primary tool is EOS I disagree and point to the fact that a lot of people that fly mp don't give themselves as realistic opponents thus allowing Flankers to rely on only eos for their benefit. This doesn't make the sim unrealistic just the behaviour of so many single ship F-15s.

 

If you'd faced and beaten top draw pilots controlled the airspace etc. using a Flanker you'd know that relying on eos as a primary tool does't work the fact is you haven't and probably never will so your opinion on the matter of DCS being realistic in this regard is pretty skewed or dare I say moot.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Frostie

[Santi871]

I don't understand why you guys are so absorbed by the idea of having to define a primary and secondary sensor. There is no primary and secondary sensor. The radar and EOS complement each other and are to be used in different situations and contexts. One without the other makes for a garbage flight.

[pr1malr8ge]

Why are you so angry? This is a forum for discussion if you can't handle someone having a different opinion to you then best you leave it.

Cheap F-15 pilots means cheap kills, you don't have to work to get them, nothing derogatory. Just drop the bitter tone please.

I'm not angry you're just close minded. I'm willing to bet any kill an f15 gets against you with a missile you will consider it cheap. If you get guns killed that too is cheap because the f15c is to you unrealistic ability. Quit crying about how you're butt hurt over being killed by f15s The ET/eos is the same as the aim120c in terms of being "CHEAP" Get over it.

 

The fact is you stated that DCS is unrealistic because Flanker pilots primary tool is EOS I disagree and point to the fact that a lot of people that fly mp don't give themselves as realistic opponents thus allowing Flankers to rely on only eos for their benefit. This doesn't make the sim unrealistic just the behaviour of so many single ship F-15s.

The more and more you deflect and select small quotes out of an entirety of a conversation just proves you to be on a which hunt against anyone who supports the f15. No I did not say DCS is Unrealistic just because Flanker drivers use EOS. There is a magnitude of other reasons along side this. I also did not say there is anything wrong with the tactic of this either in terms of the make believe world of DCS Multiplayer!

 

If you'd faced and beaten top draw pilots controlled the airspace etc. using a Flanker you'd know that relying on eos as a primary tool does't work the fact is you haven't and probably never will so your opinion on the matter of DCS being realistic in this regard is pretty skewed or dare I say moot.

 

Seems you're just grasping at straws the same as Rage does. You're confusing a select few vs the community as a whole. So my opinion is based on the entirety of DCS as a whole and not your select few, so it is not skewed and most defiantly not moot.

[Frostie]

I'm not angry you're just close minded. I'm willing to bet any kill an f15 gets against you with a missile you will consider it cheap. If you get guns killed that too is cheap because the f15c is to you unrealistic ability. Quit crying about how you're butt hurt over being killed by f15s The ET/eos is the same as the aim120c in terms of being "CHEAP" Get over it.

What are you on about, I said the cheap kills being on F-15s not getting killed by them.:doh:

The more and more you deflect and select small quotes out of an entirety of a conversation just proves you to be on a which hunt against anyone who supports the f15. No I did not say DCS is Unrealistic just because Flanker drivers use EOS. There is a magnitude of other reasons along side this. I also did not say there is anything wrong with the tactic of this either in terms of the make believe world of DCS Multiplayer!

Actually you did, you called it unrealistic to use eos as the primary sensor and you said that is what Flanker pilots do in DCS.

All this with next to zero knowledge of actually flying the Flanker and you've based it all off public server flying where realism is the last thing on most peoples mind.

 

The fact you call it unrealistic flying therefore DCS is unrealistic without realising that it is being performed in an unrealistic set up with unrealistic pilots and flights escapes you.

Everyone that flies online don't fly like real combat pilots, they may try to recreate it but that is all. How you can compare realistic pilots actions with a random public server is crazy.

eos in RU planes is used as a primary weapon system instead of using it as intended a secondary system. So hiding in the mountains makes for easy prey. This is not real world tactics and before someone tries blasting me about it. Be honest with your self; the role of the SU/MIG is for air superiority You cannot effectively do this hiding in mountain ranges.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Frostie

[pr1malr8ge]

What are you on about, I said the cheap kills being on F-15s not getting killed by them.:doh:

No you said CHEAP f15 pilots. not getting cheap kills against f15 pilots

 

Actually you did, you called it unrealistic to use eos as the primary sensor and you said that is what Flanker pilots do in DCS.

All this with next to zero knowledge of actually flying the Flanker and you've based it all off public server flying where realism is the last thing on most peoples mind.

Yes I did but you're pinning that one statement as the end all be all and my only point on it being unrealistic. Yet I clearly stated other reasoning for this also.

 

The fact you call it unrealistic flying therefore DCS is unrealistic without realising that it is being performed in an unrealistic set up with unrealistic pilots and flights escapes you.

Everyone that flies online don't fly like real combat pilots, they may try to recreate it but that is all. How you can compare realistic pilots actions with a random public server is crazy.

 

Again you just confirmed what I said all along. I've said multiple times already Multiplayer is not realistic as it's based solely on KDR and not a true common goal. With that tactics in MP are unrealistic but due to the way things are happening it's just the way it is.

To add to this we are talking about Multiplayer side of DCS. Not talking about a single player doing a campaign. So no it is not crazy because I'm not comparing the game it self when playing a setup campaign and following it like it would be done in real life. Even then I am willing to bet a vast amount of players will still do unrealistic tactics to win in single player also!

[Frostie]

No you said CHEAP f15 pilots. not getting cheap kills against f15 pilots

 

Yes I did but you're pinning that one statement as the end all be all and my only point on it being unrealistic. Yet I clearly stated other reasoning for this also.

 

 

 

Again you just confirmed what I said all along. I've said multiple times already Multiplayer is not realistic as it's based solely on KDR and not a true common goal. With that tactics in MP are unrealistic but due to the way things are happening it's just the way it is.

To add to this we are talking about Multiplayer side of DCS. Not talking about a single player doing a campaign. So no it is not crazy because I'm not comparing the game it self when playing a setup campaign and following it like it would be done in real life. Even then I am willing to bet a vast amount of players will still do unrealistic tactics to win in single player also!

 

So you're saying that because some use eos only and use mp for kdr that must mean all do therefore every Flanker and Fulcrum pilot flies unrealistically hence your rant. I thought we had already established that your generalising is a load of tosh and brings only your own skewed and inexperinced opinion. Just because an unrealistic tactic works doesn't make it wrong especially when the opposition is no better.

 

Everyone doesn't use eos as a primary sensor.

Everyone doesn't see mp as a kdr arena.

The best pilots in the most realistic environments available in DCS use radar, those that don't are ineffective.

These are facts not skewed opinions.

 

I'm still waiting for the reason why you started this latest discussion by calling me a hypocrite?

[Cik]

in a high altitude engagement EOS cannot be relied upon with at detecting at any sort of range; contrary to popular belief flankers can "win" BVR as long as you don't expect to get many kills. if you approach very high and very fast you can get a chance (low pk%, obviously) at getting kills while being safe yourself, as long as you disengage correctly before you enter (sp)AMRAAM range.

 

you'll probably get more by going low and headhunting, but that has it's own problems, if there are many eagles on the opposing side a stealthy approach is almost impossible and furthermore you have a very large kinetic disadvantage for being so low, so any engagement you get into in the mountains that the opponent starts higher than you is almost guaranteed a losing fight, and if you choose to run the high-alt eagle is faster than you are, so unless friendlies are close to scare him off you are probably toast.

 

tl;dr BVR engagement possible as long as you don't expect many kills, disengage early. radar is primary high-alt BVR sensor as EOS doesn't detect well in frontal and cannot be relied upon to detect outside amraam NEZ

[Tumbleweed]

They do CRAZY angles over the terrain, scrape paint on polygons and flying inverted with less than 5m metres of clearance over peaks into 45 degree inverted dives into very short valleys on the other side.

 

Like this?

 

 

[pr1malr8ge]

So you're saying that because some use eos only and use mp for kdr that must mean all do therefore every Flanker and Fulcrum pilot flies unrealistically hence your rant. I thought we had already established that your generalising is a load of tosh and brings only your own skewed and inexperinced opinion. Just because an unrealistic tactic works doesn't make it wrong especially when the opposition is no better.

Nope never said every F/F pilot does. How ever if you go into a vast majority of servers the majority rule of this is true. As far as generalizing you're trying to conclude that your select few that you know do this[use the sensors as they should] when a majority of those whom you do not know do not.

Hell any person who games online could easily deduce that the majority of people who play online are out for their sole gratification on getting the most kills with the least amount of deaths and will do anything[not talking about cheating] to do it. Even if that is not how it should be done. You would have to be the most ignorant person in the world to believe that not to be true!

 

 

Everyone doesn't use eos as a primary sensor.

Everyone doesn't see mp as a kdr arena.

The best pilots in the most realistic environments available in DCS use radar, those that don't are ineffective.

These are facts not skewed opinions.

 

I'm still waiting for the reason why you started this latest discussion by calling me a hypocrite?

 

Side stepping again. My observations are based on a majority. That does not say everyone does it.

So with that KDR and EOS are a majority in use.

Do not disagree with you on the last bit but it comes back to you're trying to select a few over the many to argue a point.

[pr1malr8ge]

Humm does this look like what you watched on dcs youtube?

 

 

 

 

Like this?

 

 

 

Umm Tumble, already been posted m8

[Frostie]

Nope never said every F/F pilot does. How ever if you go into a vast majority of servers the majority rule of this is true. As far as generalizing you're trying to conclude that your select few that you know do this[use the sensors as they should] when a majority of those whom you do not know do not.

Hell any person who games online could easily deduce that the majority of people who play online are out for their sole gratification on getting the most kills with the least amount of deaths and will do anything[not talking about cheating] to do it. Even if that is not how it should be done. You would have to be the most ignorant person in the world to believe that not to be true!

 

Side stepping again. My observations are based on a majority. That does not say everyone does it.

So with that KDR and EOS are a majority in use.

Do not disagree with you on the last bit but it comes back to you're trying to select a few over the many to argue a point.

 

If you go in a vast amount of servers it is not true that they use EOS as a primary sensor you're flat out wrong, yes they use EOS when the engagement gets closer and mountainous but this is all part of the package of having dual sensors and those that end up in the mountains because engagements degenerated into low flying because of missile trashing will tend to use eos more than radar because that is the obvious choice in that situation. This does not mean that eos is being used as the primary sensor by Flanker pilots it means that eos is being used at opportune moments by Flanker pilots as intended.

 

And like I've said all along those that would choose to use only eos will fail more than not.

[Tumbleweed]

Umm Tumble, already been posted m8

 

Yeah, sorry, I saw that after I'd posted LOL.

 

I quite often fly the way the pilot in the video flies. In fact, when I first watched the clip, I found myself more or less anticipating his moves especially when going over peaks, going inverted then pulling the nose into the valley below. I just thought that's how everyone flew :music_whistling:

[*Rage*]

Oh this is gold, pure gold! Where to begin?...

 

You're the one with the chip on his shoulder and bring in your groups achievements as some smoke and mirrors to detract from what was said.

 

Not enough awesome sauce for you? You remember that one? :lol: Last time you lost an argument to me you posted pictures of your 'achievements' as if that could hide the holes in your arguments. Or soothe that butthurt. Unfortunately it does neither. Pictures of motocross or fire engines carry no weight here. And hippocracy he says...:megalol:

 

Lets move on....

 

I'm not angry you're just close minded. Quit crying about how you're butt hurt over being killed by f15s The ET/eos is the same as the aim120c in terms of being "CHEAP" Get over it.

 

Nobody is crying about it. Frostie and I (and all other 51st) get shot down not infrequently on public servers and we NEVER fly under false names. If someone shoots us down S! and GK to them. We don't hide under false pseudonyms. Im tired of big forum egos like yourself who hide under anonymous names in MP for fear of their ego getting crushed. Which it will. I don't remember seeing your name in any recent MP server or event. We have flown in all of them. Always using our forum callsigns.

 

The more and more you deflect and select small quotes....

 

Seems you're just grasping at straws the same as Rage does.

Ahhh. We're back to deflection, grasping at straws and a little side dig at me:). The second time you lost an argument to me and Frostie you sent me PMs with more pictures of your 'achievements' once again!!! Who's deflecting and grasping at straws??! Who's feeling the butthurt? Does your family know you're plundering the family album and sending it to strangers online?! What do you think it achieves? What next? Pictures of you scoring the winning touchdown in the last seconds of them game? Son's graduation? Would you have the insight to know if you were institutionalised? I'd hate to think i'm having an internet argument with someone who was. Is there another plausible explanation why you keep sending me personal photos of yourself? Either way we had a good laugh about it in the squad. Please keep them coming.

 

I've said multiple times already Multiplayer is not realistic as it's based solely on KDR and not a true common goal.

 

If you had ANY experience at all in Red Flag 1,2,3, Joint Warrior 1,2,3,4, Blue Flag 1,2,3 (and the plethora of other open community MP events prior) you'd know that was not the case at all. But you do not. So your opinion is moot.

Edited October 21, 2015 by ///Rage

[Drona]

pr1malr8ge and ///rage, you guys should get a room for yourselves!

[pr1malr8ge]

Oh this is gold, pure gold! Where to begin?...

 

 

 

Not enough awesome sauce for you? You remember that one? :lol: Last time you lost an argument to me you posted pictures of your 'achievements' as if that could hide the holes in your arguments. Or soothe that butthurt. Unfortunately it does neither. Pictures of motocross or fire engines carry no weight here. And hippocracy he says...:megalol:

 

Lets move on....

Nope no awesome sauce presented by you or your cronies.

But you're the one whom asked for it in the first place and then asked again and looks like a thrice time. But There was more then just MX and fire dept stuff. I had my Personal aviation stuff. None the less Doesn't matter while you sit behind your computer screen bugg eyed looking to type about how much your DCS Su27 is the end all be all. I'm out doing things in the real world that are productive. Seems to me you might need a girlfriend or a boyfriend which ever you prefer I'm not judging.

 

 

Nobody is crying about it. Frostie and I (and all other 51st) get shot down not infrequently on public servers and we NEVER fly under false names. If someone shoots us down S! and GK to them. We don't hide under false pseudonyms. Im tired of big forum egos like yourself who hide under anonymous names in MP for fear of their ego getting crushed. Which it will. I don't remember seeing your name in any recent MP server or event. We have flown in all of them. Always using our forum callsigns.

Nope no false pseudonyms or false names for me. I play/fly as my call sign on the forum reads PR1MAL or Pr1malr8ge either or. So No I have no EGO issues and could care less if someone is better then I am in a multiplayer computer game.

 

 

Ahhh. We're back to deflection, grasping at straws and a little side dig at me:). The second time you lost an argument to me and Frostie you sent me PMs with more pictures of your 'achievements' once again!!! Who's deflecting and grasping at straws??! Who's feeling the butthurt? Does your family know you're plundering the family album and sending it to strangers online?! What do you think it achieves? What next? Pictures of you scoring the winning touchdown in the last seconds of them game? Son's graduation? Would you have the insight to know if you were institutionalised? I'd hate to think i'm having an internet argument with someone who was. Is there another plausible explanation why you keep sending me personal photos of yourself? Either way we had a good laugh about it in the squad. Please keep them coming.

Let's see here. I haven't lost an argument. You're just fooling your self if you think you've won any argument online.

Nope not butthurt It's a computer environment and has no bearing on the rest of my life. You're the one asking for awesome sauce and when you get it your only recourse is to try and make fun of it.. I know what I've acomplished in my life I provided it as you requested multiple times and again now. You seem to have a desire to live through some one else's life which hey I guess if that makes you feel better I'm happy to send you more pictures of my good times racing/riding my MX bike, or flying real airplanes or risking my life doing fire department things. I think it's time you stop wasting your life behind a computer and go out and get a life mate what ever that might be either a boy or a girl.

 

 

If you had ANY experience at all in Red Flag 1,2,3, Joint Warrior 1,2,3,4, Blue Flag 1,2,3 (and the plethora of other open community MP events prior) you'd know that was not the case at all. But you do not. So your opinion is moot.

 

Nope my opinion is based on the community as a whole. Not based on a select few specialized events that only a minority actually play. So again you're deflecting. With that my opinion is not moot.

[dartuil]

MP is empty in 1.5 or I just dont see servers.

[Frostie]

.

Nope my opinion is based on the community as a whole. Not based on a select few specialized events that only a minority actually play. So again you're deflecting. With that my opinion is not moot..

 

Every post you make is an attempt to justify how wonderful your life is and how dismal someone elses is based purely on a crazy made up assumption. I know Rage personally and I know he is smart enough to not stoop to your low level of crowing on about how successful he is in his chosen career and life.

 

Why not just post something constructive based on facts instead of building it on the blind opinion of you getting shot down by Flankers using eos meaning everyone must only be using eos as a primary sensor.

 

You don't fly the Flanker and probably don't know anyone that does so where are your facts coming from?

Don't carry on with this nonsense of it is what you see in servers because you're talking rubbish, i've managed and flown in servers in this sim for 10 years, we've collected stats and analysed 10x more flights than you've probably flown and know that what you're trying to claim as being a global fact is absurd.

 

Even the guy/guide you quoted earlier stated that both sensors are used in combination.

[*Rage*]

MP is empty in 1.5 or I just dont see servers.

 

The server list refresh is a quite buggy. I often have to restart DCS OB to see a server list. Also I think some have moved back to hosting 1.2 for now.

[dartuil]

The server list refresh is a quite buggy. I often have to restart DCS OB to see a server list. Also I think some have moved back to hosting 1.2 for now.

 

 

U right they are still on 1.2 ATM.

[DieHard]

Not really, he's talking about deep valley flying where you're watching from the hillside as aircraft fly below you a really nice live spectacle.

 

I was on Giant Mtn. in the Adirondacks back when Plattsburgh Air Force Base in NY State was still there. I saw a single A-10 about 1,000 feet below me flying low over Rt. 73 on the way to Keene Valley. That was a real treat seeing that.

 

Not very often today I see military aircraft back in wilderness areas. During 'Nam it was fairly common to see F-4's in the Catskills dog-fight playing around coming over from Stewart Air Force Base.

Edited October 24, 2015 by DieHard