Su-27 Training CCIP Mode Unguided Bombs

[lockon2015]

Quick Question

 

The Su-27 seems far more unstable in the mission: "CCIP Mode Unguided Bombs". You're supposed to fly through the gates, but it feels like everything I try to do the game completely does the other thing. I usually can't get through the first gate for how much the plane bounces and rolls around and trying to fly it level is impossible. II barely try and correct a turn and I roll all the way around; it pitches and rolls like I don't even have my hand on the joystick.

 

Furthermore, I can't speed up in the beginning of the mission. Ihe mission starts you off about 450 but its never been hard to speed up from that speed in other missions. I get warnings that I'm going too slow, but no matter how many times I try and speed up, the nose just pitches down; I drop in altitude, and I keep decelerating. It takes forever to speed up again. I've tried thrust up and thrust-step-up but nothing seems to work to increase the speed. Why won't the plane speed up?

 

Then I circle around and use the autopilot to fly at the maintained altitude and have tried all different modes of autopilot and I get some success with that, right up until I get to the gate where it feels like a force field takes over. The plane is so wild there's no hope of flying it straight. A tiny touch of the joystick makes the plane roll halfway around or pitch like I'm heading for the sky or the ground, where maybe I'm just trying a small correction, which causes the speed to suddenly increase or decrease out of control.

 

Is there is something I've missed here in this particular mission? The gates seem to be at a higher altitude then what I've seen yet (5500 m) so maybe the altitude has something to do with it. This plane has been fine in the other missions. I don't know why it acts so different and uncontrollably in this mission.

Edited September 4, 2015 by lockon2015

[SilentGun]

It could be that you have a full load out, so the plane could handle a bit differently than your used to

 

Could you attach a track to can see how it handles?

[DarkFire]

I used to get this with some of the training missions. It appears to be caused by the actual settings of your HOTAS (or whatever control system you're using) being very different to the control positions at the time at which the training mission was 'active-paused'.

 

If you go in to your game options --> misc and make sure that "Synchronise cockpit controls with HOTAS controls at mission start" is checked, this will make sure that when you un-pause the mission the aircraft controls will be matched to YOUR HOTAS rather than being set to whatever the pilot who recorded the training mission was doing at the time he or she engaged pause.

 

Secondly, I'd advise against using the autopilot on the Su-27. It appears to have all sorts of very weird effects on the controls even after it's been disengaged. I never, ever use the damned thing as it makes the aircraft nearly unflyable even after it's been disabled. If you're worried about being at low speed, when you disengage active pause make sure you're throttle is at maximum then as soon as you're moving quickly trim the aircraft.

 

Finally, you didn't hit the "S" key by any chance did you? This essentially disengages the "fly-by-wire" computer and gives direct control input. Very, very dangerous unless you're prepared for what happens next. Hitting the S key at low speed with neutral stick position = instant death.

Edited September 4, 2015 by DarkFire

[Stuge]

If the flanker is fully fueled, not to mention loaded with bombs, dont expect to do hard maneuvers and still have it under control :)

[DarkFire]

In all fairness I think the Flanker is actually quite controllable at low speed, but yes, don't expect to turn & burn with a bomb load :)

 

As a quick example, attached are a zipped .acmi and a .trk file of me practising with some FAB-500s against some unsuspecting targets :pilotfly:

 

In terms of flying an actual mission, without SEAD support being accurate with dumb bombs is going to be nigh on impossible. If you have the luxury of a 4-ship of SEAD equipped Su-25T's going in ahead of you then you can accurately bomb targets all day :thumbup:

 

Edited to add: If you watch the track ignore the briefing at the start, all the things mentioned don't exist in the mission yet, it's still work in progress. If you're wondering what the hell the building was that generated so many secondary explosions, apparently it was a warehouse. What the hell did they have in that warehouse :shocking:

Edited September 5, 2015 by DarkFire

[lockon2015]

Ok, first off, after flying the mission a bunch of times, I did make progress. I was able to circle around right at the unpause and level out more. I really squeeze the joystick hard so my forearms get a workout; not sure if this is what a pilot in real life would experience. But I did get through the gates. Seems to be practice helps a lot here.

 

A few things:

 

" attached are a zipped .acmi and a .trk file of me practising with some FAB-500s against some unsuspecting targets "

 

I couldn't open the files. The computer prompts a message about what kind of app to open these files with. What should I browse for?

 

What does SEAD stand for?

 

"If the flanker is fully fueled, not to mention loaded with bombs, dont expect to do hard maneuvers and still have it under control"

 

Yes, that makes perfect sense now, in hindsight. I totally realize how this is correct.

 

"advise against using the autopilot .... makes the aircraft nearly unflyable even after it's been disabled"

 

Good to know other people have seen this. I thought it was just me. As long as I know what to expect from the aircraft, I can plan for it. Its hard when you're a beginner sometimes: you're not sure what is intrinsic to the plane or if its just your lack of skill, as is the case with me.

 

No, I haven't touched the S key yet. I saw another thread on the forum while cruising for answers to some of my questions and I found where the S key caused the plane to crash. Just for fun, would a real plane have something like an S key built into it? What would a real pilot need such a "Don't touch that under any circumstances" kind of a button for?

 

I'll try a track later if I still can't get through the mission. I've been making some progress that just comes with practice and I want to try the ideas here first before people spend too much time on something I can get to myself with a little more work. I wanted to make sure I wasn't do anything obviously wrong and so far it looks like I passed that.

[Azrayen]

.acmi => use Tacview (3rd party tool, awesome, get it!!!)

.trk => short for track; use DCS/replay; recording that allows the simulator to re-run a flight; note that a track is a recording of the inputs/commands, not a recording of what actually happened; this can lead to different results sometimes.

 

SEAD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_Enemy_Air_Defenses

 

would a real plane have something like an S key built into it?

Yes. Sitting on the ground, use key while looking at the left side cockpit. You'll see where the real switch is (it's animated).

 

What would a real pilot need such a "Don't touch that under any circumstances" kind of a button for?

Because the real button reads "Don't touch that unless very specific circumstances";)

[grunf]

No, I haven't touched the S key yet. I saw another thread on the forum while cruising for answers to some of my questions and I found where the S key caused the plane to crash. Just for fun, would a real plane have something like an S key built into it? What would a real pilot need such a "Don't touch that under any circumstances" kind of a button for?

S key turns off fly-by-wire and makes cobra maneuver possible. :D

 

Edited September 7, 2015 by grunf

[Ironhand]

Ok, first off, after flying the mission a bunch of times, I did make progress. I was able to circle around right at the unpause and level out more. I really squeeze the joystick hard so my forearms get a workout; not sure if this is what a pilot in real life would experience. But I did get through the gates. Seems to be practice helps a lot here...

You should not be in danger of falling out of the sky and you should also not need to be fighting the stick. Seeing your post, I tried the mission myself and, yes, you are slow at mission start but the aircraft is easily flyable and picks up speed quickly enough once you advance the throttles. So something is wrong somewhere because you should not be experiencing what you stated in your first post ("...the plane bounces and rolls around and trying to fly it level is impossible. I barely try and correct a turn and I roll all the way around; it pitches and rolls like I don't even have my hand on the joystick.")

 

 

A few things:

 

" attached are a zipped .acmi and a .trk file of me practising with some FAB-500s against some unsuspecting targets "

 

I couldn't open the files. The computer prompts a message about what kind of app to open these files with. What should I browse for?...

WinZip, 7-Zip, WinRAR, etc.

 

EDIT: Googled List

 

EDIT 2: At the start of that mission, is your nose constantly trying to pitch up on you?

 

 

Rich

Edited September 8, 2015 by Ironhand

[DarkFire]

Ok, first off, after flying the mission a bunch of times, I did make progress. I was able to circle around right at the unpause and level out more. I really squeeze the joystick hard so my forearms get a workout; not sure if this is what a pilot in real life would experience. But I did get through the gates. Seems to be practice helps a lot here.

 

A few things:

 

" attached are a zipped .acmi and a .trk file of me practising with some FAB-500s against some unsuspecting targets "

 

I couldn't open the files. The computer prompts a message about what kind of app to open these files with. What should I browse for?

 

What does SEAD stand for?

 

"If the flanker is fully fueled, not to mention loaded with bombs, dont expect to do hard maneuvers and still have it under control"

 

Yes, that makes perfect sense now, in hindsight. I totally realize how this is correct.

 

"advise against using the autopilot .... makes the aircraft nearly unflyable even after it's been disabled"

 

Good to know other people have seen this. I thought it was just me. As long as I know what to expect from the aircraft, I can plan for it. Its hard when you're a beginner sometimes: you're not sure what is intrinsic to the plane or if its just your lack of skill, as is the case with me.

 

No, I haven't touched the S key yet. I saw another thread on the forum while cruising for answers to some of my questions and I found where the S key caused the plane to crash. Just for fun, would a real plane have something like an S key built into it? What would a real pilot need such a "Don't touch that under any circumstances" kind of a button for?

 

I'll try a track later if I still can't get through the mission. I've been making some progress that just comes with practice and I want to try the ideas here first before people spend too much time on something I can get to myself with a little more work. I wanted to make sure I wasn't do anything obviously wrong and so far it looks like I passed that.

 

My bad, I should have explained :beer:

 

.acmi files are opened with a 3rd party application called Tacview. Search for tacview on youtube to see what it does. Essentially it replicates the Air Combat Manouvering Instrumentation that real aircraft carry during thing like the Fighter Weapons School so that air combat can be analysed after-the-fact. In a DCS context it's hands-down THE best tool for evaluating what you did in a given mission and is 100% recommended.

 

.trk files are replays that the game engine uses to re-create a mission. It's not a video file but replicates the inputs that you made and those made by AI pilots. This can occasionally produce results that differ from the original mission but it's usually reasonably faithful to the original. In order to play a .trk file go in to the game and select "replay" from the main menu.

 

SEAD = Suppression of Enemy Air Defence and usually involves aircraft armed with anti-radiation missiles that are tasked with destroying enemy air defences such as SAM batteries.

 

From the way you describe fighting the control stick, do you have a force-feedback joystick? I think there's a known problem whereby trim doesn't work correctly with FF joysticks. Currently the fix seems to be to turn off the FF for DCS world. If you do have a FF stick give this a try.

 

The issue with turning off the fly-by-wire system is that at almost any airspeed the nose of the Flanker will drop violently as soon as you hit the S key to disable the system. If you're prepared for it by applying steady back pressure on the stick then it's less of an issue but if you're not prepared for it what happens is that the sudden violent negative G will "kill" your virtual pilot, following which the Flanker is usually left in an inverted departed state, often described as the inverted shuttle cock of death.

 

Unless you have PLENTY of altitude and know exactly how to recover from it, the inverted departure is usually fatal, which is why turning off the fly-by-wire system is a VERY bad idea if you're still getting used to how the Flanker handles.

 

Hope that clarified stuff from my original post :)

[Stuge]

.acmi => use Tacview (3rd party tool, awesome, get it!!!)

.trk => short for track; use DCS/replay; recording that allows the simulator to re-run a flight; note that a track is a recording of the inputs/commands, not a recording of what actually happened; this can lead to different results sometimes.

 

SEAD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_Enemy_Air_Defenses

 

 

Yes. Sitting on the ground, use key while looking at the left side cockpit. You'll see where the real switch is (it's animated).

 

 

Because the real button reads "Don't touch that unless very specific circumstances";)

 

Out of curiosity.. does the Su-27 wheel brake button/lever/whatever also function IRL as it does in the sim?

 

As some of you certainly know using the wheel brake while pulling a lot of G gives you a little extra G (around 1 G), increasing the risk of blackout, but this turn is smooth and thus not as energy expensive as hitting the S key and pulling a crazy turn. Certainly a useful feature in a dogfight.

 

I don't remember this ever being mentioned anywhere, I heard this from some russian DCS pilot and was shocked at first.

 

For those who don't believe me... and I'm sure some of you don't... try it out and see for yourselves! ;)

[DarkFire]

Out of curiosity.. does the Su-27 wheel brake button/lever/whatever also function IRL as it does in the sim?

 

As some of you certainly know using the wheel brake while pulling a lot of G gives you a little extra G (around 1 G), increasing the risk of blackout, but this turn is smooth and thus not as energy expensive as hitting the S key and pulling a crazy turn. Certainly a useful feature in a dogfight.

 

I don't remember this ever being mentioned anywhere, I heard this from some russian DCS pilot and was shocked at first.

 

For those who don't believe me... and I'm sure some of you don't... try it out and see for yourselves! ;)

 

Just tried this and to be honest I didn't see any difference. Are we talking about a max-G turn? What sort of airspeed & altitude?

[Stuge]

Just tried this and to be honest I didn't see any difference. Are we talking about a max-G turn? What sort of airspeed & altitude?

 

You need enough airspeed to pull a maximum G turn for a few seconds. Try a low altitude horizontal or slice turn from 1100 km/h or faster. You have to hold wheel brake button down throughout the turn. Observe the G value from external view, pay special attention to the peak highest G value! In-cockpit G meter is too inaccurate to easily notice the difference, and blackout will prevent seeing it also. The turn must be done with the stick fully back, otherwise you are not pulling max G!

 

if you still can't see it, i can post a track later ;)

[DarkFire]

You need enough airspeed to pull a maximum G turn for a few seconds. Try a low altitude horizontal or slice turn from 1100 km/h or faster. You have to hold wheel brake button down throughout the turn. Observe the G value from external view, pay special attention to the peak highest G value! In-cockpit G meter is too inaccurate to easily notice the difference, and blackout will prevent seeing it also. The turn must be done with the stick fully back, otherwise you are not pulling max G!

 

if you still can't see it, i can post a track later ;)

 

Ah, understood. That wasn't what I was doing. I'll have another go.