M2000 vs Mig-21

[howie87]

The Mirage's RDI radar uses a higher pulse-repetition frequency for its dedicated interception role, increasing clear-air detection range of fighter sized targets to around 66 nmi (122 km) and 50 nmi (93 km) is possible in look-down mode.

 

The MiG's RP-22 has a 30km search range and a 15km tracking range, look up only.

 

That MiG's sure gonna have his work cut out.

[LuSi_6]

Now that the 29 gets it's 6dof cockpit, we will see the 29S more often. A second bird shooting active sticks. I think gameplay will not much different from the old 21 to the more modern 2k. Dodge R77 and Aim120 all day and sneek up stealthy from behind.

 

BTW, the chart from the 2k looks insane. In a close merge the 2k could give the Mig29 a good fight. But I would set my money on the 29, helmet aiming all the way ;)

 

I guess I will use the 2k like the 21. Two IR missiles only to keep it light

[Fer_Fer]

Any source? Or just something you guessed right now?

 

If both aircraft were flown by equal computers, then possibly that would be the outcome.

 

I fly the p-51 against another p-51.. The outcome will not always be 50/50

 

Edit: but yes, of course the mirage would have the advantage ofc..

 

assuming a head on scenario,

Mirage will detect the 21 first, will move into an position from where it has the advantage, and begin lobbing BVR missiles at it.

now the MIg needs to start dodging a missile of which it has no clue except its coming in. (RWR is very shitty on the Mig), making dodging a lot harder as the pilot cannot guess the relative distance.

so, assuming the Mig manages to survive the BVR component, it isn't getting better from there.

 

the Mirage 2000 has the edge in flight parameters, close in equipment, and better view from the cockpit. and even worse for the Mig, the Mirage is a nimble jets, which nullifies its greatest advantage against the F15, that it does will in a close in fight, against hte Mirage you don't have that luxery.

we are talking here an aircraft that is capable to pull higher alpha and sustained AoA then the Mig 21..... combined with all aspect IR missiles leaves the Mig 21 pretty much at the mercy of the Mirage without it can really do anything against it.

 

So in short, you'd get smashed pretty much 9 of out of 10 times by a Mirage driver assuming he knows what he is doing.

[Moos_tachu]

Im not disputing that the M2000C is a superior fighter, but this is mainly due to superior avionics and much better weapons and radar. (and yes, the FBW. Without FBW the Mirage would be virtually unflyable)

 

I think you might be underestimating the M2000 aerodynamics and engine performance.

 

The M2000 airframe has very fine aerodynamics, which provides excellent maneuverability.

Relaxed stability and FBW just further improve this, especially at low speed / high AOA.

 

Engine performance is also way ahead of the MiG.

Not only thrust power, but also responsiveness, which is important in a dogfight; what really matters is not top speed, it's acceleration, and the M2000 definitely has a leap on that aspect.

 

To have an idea, watch a "Solo Display" video on YT.

I've seen MiG-21's in airshows, they don't come close.

[LuSi_6]

oh wait! Don't underestimate the thrust to weigh ratio of the Mig! Acceleration will not be that different (below 6000m)

[Hummingbird]

Any source? Or just something you guessed right now?

 

If both aircraft were flown by equal computers, then possibly that would be the outcome.

 

I fly the p-51 against another p-51.. The outcome will not always be 50/50

 

Edit: but yes, of course the mirage would have the advantage ofc..

 

 

In a direct airplane vs airplane comparison you always assume equal pilots, and in that case the Mirage wins such a scenario 99% of the time. The Mirage litterally holds all the advantages, and to a significant degree.

[Farlander]

In a direct airplane vs airplane comparison you always assume equal pilots, and in that case the Mirage wins such a scenario 99% of the time. The Mirage litterally holds all the advantages, and to a significant degree.

 

Yes im sure this would be the result when you put it like that. Just like the f-15 should win over the mirage 99% of the time.

 

Thing is.. People already kill f-15's in the mig.. What makes the mirage better, or as good as the f-15 vs. the mig-21? Surely it would be easier to deal with..

[Bogey Jammer]

MiG-21s killing F-15s is just a matter of pilot skills. Technically, everybody seem to agree that the Mirage is superior. For the pilot part, see you online. I'm learning nothing from this thread.

[jojo]

Yes im sure this would be the result when you put it like that. Just like the f-15 should win over the mirage 99% of the time.

 

Thing is.. People already kill f-15's in the mig.. What makes the mirage better, or as good as the f-15 vs. the mig-21? Surely it would be easier to deal with..

 

If the Mirage can't launch walls of BVR missiles, it's smaller and more agile than F-15. So in dogfight it will be more difficult for MiG against the Mirage than against the F-15.

 

Anyway, what I see on MiG kills against more modern fighters in videos is MiG hiding from radar down into valley to ambush from behind in slash attacks. That is tactically relevant for the MiG. But that doesn't make it a match for the Mirage, it's the only way for the MiG to survive...and in this scenario the good instantaneous turn rate of the Mirage can make the fight goes south for the MiG if he is detected.

[Zomba]

Well I'm learning a fair bit from this thread. I have to agree with Moos, looking at displays of the Mirage it looks very good with agility. I can't really see much of an answer to that sort of performance in a merge if the pilot is good.

 

Here's a video I recorded earlier today of a merge with a F-15. Even though the Eagle can out turn a Mig-21 and has better energy retention, if the pilot isn't careful with his energy a Mig can still get into a lag pursuit.

 

[Moos_tachu]

Well I'm learning a fair bit from this thread. I have to agree with Moos, looking at displays of the Mirage it looks very good with agility. I can't really see much of an answer to that sort of performance in a merge if the pilot is good.

 

Here's a video I recorded earlier today of a merge with a F-15. Even though the Eagle can out turn a Mig-21 and has better energy retention, if the pilot isn't careful with his energy a Mig can still get into a lag pursuit.

 

Right, but that's not one-on-one, rather Eagle hunting with your MiG buddies ;)

Pretty realistic way to handle F-15's with 21's by the way: team tactics ftw!

 

And in spite of that, the Eagle pilot managed to score a kill before you shot him down...

Good kill anyway :)

[Zomba]

It was unfortunate for my friend. He was actually almost in the pocket of a lag pursuit of the defending F-15. I was coming in behind him to support when he said he was merged, but sadly my friend overcranked and killed his energy staying with the Eagle (The F-15 over-cranked too and really hurt his energy). Buddy elected to roll out and extend. I didn't realise he was rolling out, I thought the F-15 was scissoring him, but actually saw that he was disengaging and reversed turn to catch him. By that stage they were both exhausted and I was trying to stay in a deep lag so as to not overshoot. It ended up being an easy kill, once he threw all his energy out the window there wasn't much he could do.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Zomba

[Moos_tachu]

Me getting lucky on the subject. This of course can't be considered serious aerodynamic research but as you can see, the AI-Mirage2000 is quite a handful. And I don't want to do this again, you can only have so much luck :)

 

Suicidal non-sense, in the real world you'd be dead more than 10 times :D

[Hummingbird]

Yes im sure this would be the result when you put it like that. Just like the f-15 should win over the mirage 99% of the time.

 

Thing is.. People already kill f-15's in the mig.. What makes the mirage better, or as good as the f-15 vs. the mig-21? Surely it would be easier to deal with..

 

 

The difference between going up against an F-15 contra a Mirage is that with the F-15 you're gonna have to work harder to live through the BVR stage, however if you succeed in doing this you actually have one tiny advantage up your sleeve: Your high alpha capability. This tiny advantage is something which in very rare cases can actually save a good MiG-21 pilot against an F-15 in a WVR fight, but against a competent F-15 pilot it's still a suicidal situation for the MiG 9 times out of 10 due to the Eagles massive advantage in STR, climb rate, speed & acceleration.

 

Against the Mirage 2000 however the MiG-21 doesn't even have its little high alpha advantage, the Mirage being even more capable in this respect. So whilst the MiG will have an easier time getting past the BVR stage, it's then basically left without choices after the merge with the Mirage which is going to have absolutely no trouble reversing straight onto the MiG's six - and even catch the MiG if it chooses to run for it in a straight dart after the merge.

 

In short I predict that the Mirage is going to be just as much a pain for MiG-21 pilots as is the F-15, but just in a slightly different way.

[Farlander]

In short I predict that the Mirage is going to be just as much a pain for MiG-21 pilots as is the F-15, but just in a slightly different way.

 

Alright. yes. Pretty much this.

 

Should not have started that arguement, it did not serve much purpose. Sorry.

[sedenion]

Well, i think this topic is full of objective argument without any bias... So, i give mine...

 

The Mirage 2000 is a french aircraft, so, it is obvious that the Mirage 2000 is a better aircraft... This is simply... LOGICAL.

[Farlander]

Well, i think this topic is full of objective argument without any bias... So, i give mine...

 

The Mirage 2000 is a french aircraft, so, it is obvious that the Mirage 2000 is a better aircraft... This is simply... LOGICAL.

 

Well... I sure hope they have modeled the surrender mode properly! It would not be very french without it ;) If you ever wonder what button it is, just look for the button that is most worn out :P

 

Pls dont kill me.. :(

[PiedDroit]

Interesting discussion for sure.

Actually I never thought about pitting the MiG against the Mirage.

First thing I thought was the Mirage would be flown pretty much like the MiG as they similar in terms of capabilities, in the broad sense, i. e. single engine, short supply of missiles, fox 1 and fox 2, no datalink, limited A-G.

[PiedDroit]

Well... I sure hope they have modeled the surrender mode properly! It would not be very french without it ;) If you ever wonder what button it is, just look for the button that is most worn out :P

 

Pls dont kill me.. :(

Haha not bad.

If the engine had a thrust reverse the joke would have been ever better.

I'm French but no offence taken (I can differentiate when someone is trying to be mean or not ;))

[jojo]

Well... I sure hope they have modeled the surrender mode properly! It would not be very french without it ;) If you ever wonder what button it is, just look for the button that is most worn out :P

 

Pls dont kill me.. :(

 

There is already a Mirage coming in for you...

 

 

:devil:

 

[Moos_tachu]

First thing I thought was the Mirage would be flown pretty much like the MiG as they similar in terms of capabilities, in the broad sense, i. e. single engine, short supply of missiles, fox 1 and fox 2, no datalink, limited A-G.

 

And heeeeeere we go again......

[jojo]

Interesting discussion for sure.

Actually I never thought about pitting the MiG against the Mirage.

First thing I thought was the Mirage would be flown pretty much like the MiG as they similar in terms of capabilities, in the broad sense, i. e. single engine, short supply of missiles, fox 1 and fox 2, no datalink, limited A-G.

 

I would agree for the MiG 29 :D

[Darkwolf]

No one is talking about the most #1 important thing in DCS : Radar Cross Section. How is the m2000 ? The reason mig21 can bang f15 without much pain is the low RCS, nearly 10 fold lower than eagles and flankers. It allow to dodge amraam and radar detectiln really easily when you know your stuff. i'm not een mentionning the mountains, as the low rcs allow fun tuff even above the sea :P

 

i actually don't fear much the mirage. 4 pylons, that isn't much stuff to dodge. Once within R3R range (Pk=0.9), mirage is dead meat. it will come down to the mirage bvr missile Pk, and to the mirage RCS. Once mirage is locked by mig, its too late. If i had to drive the mirage against mig, i wouldn't rely too much on those fancy corner speed charrs and aerodynamic marketing campaign. I would either try to get kill from range, or try to sneak around. An head on merge is the last thing you wanna do against migs 21.

 

edit : at least, on the beauty point of view, mirage is clearly above :P

Edited September 29, 2015 by Darkwolf

[Hummingbird]

No one is talking about the most #1 important thing in DCS : Radar Cross Section. How is the m2000 ? The reason mig21 can bang f15 without much pain is the low RCS, nearly 10 fold lower than eagles and flankers. It allow to dodge amraam and radar detectiln really easily when you know your stuff. i'm not een mentionning the mountains, as the low rcs allow fun tuff even above the sea :P

 

i actually don't fear much the mirage. 4 pylons, that isn't much stuff to dodge. Once within R3R range (Pk=0.9), mirage is dead meat. it will come down to the mirage bvr missile Pk, and to the mirage RCS. Once mirage is locked by mig, its too late. If i had to drive the mirage against mig, i wouldn't rely too much on those fancy corner speed charrs and aerodynamic marketing campaign. I would either try to get kill from range, or try to sneak around. An head on merge is the last thing you wanna do against migs 21.

 

edit : at least, on the beauty point of view, mirage is clearly above :P

 

You're gonna get a nasty surprise the first time you find yourself locked in a booth with a competently flown Mirage, that's for sure :D

Edited September 29, 2015 by Hummingbird

[jojo]

Once within R3R range (Pk=0.9), mirage is dead meat. :P

 

Someone has to explain to me how this Russian 1960' crap (like all AA missile back then) can have a PK=0.9 ? :huh: