M2000 vs Mig-21

[TomCatMucDe]

Well we tried the dogfighting and it went as expected, the MiG-21 really doesn't stand much chance in WVR with the F-15. Thus it will stand even less of a chance against the Mirage in this scenario.

 

No surprise. He just didn't want to listen to reason. Anyways, since that fight he didn't show up around here. You went too hard on him Hummingbird!

[Hummingbird]

No surprise. He just didn't want to listen to reason. Anyways, since that fight he didn't show up around here. You went too hard on him Hummingbird!

 

To be fair the reason he hasn't responded is probably because he has been given a hiatus from the forum it seems, probably because of the double account he was brandishing ;)

 

Anyway we entered his server on the same day and went up against him in his MiG-21 flying our F-15's. In the fair 1 v 1's that happened the F-15 came out on top easily each time. Infact I don't think I witnessed a single F-15 get shot down at all in my time on the server, except for GGTharos shooting me down in his F-15 once for unknown reasons (probably just for sh*ts n giggles, I dunno, didn't matter)

[TomCatMucDe]

To be fair the reason he hasn't responded is probably because he has been given a hiatus from the forum it seems, probably because of the double account he was brandishing ;)

 

Anyway we entered his server on the same day and went up against him in his MiG-21 flying our F-15's. In the fair 1 v 1's that happened the F-15 came out on top easily each time. Infact I don't think I witnessed a single F-15 get shot down at all in my time on the server, except for GGTharos shooting me down in his F-15 once for unknown reasons (probably just for sh*ts n giggles, I dunno, didn't matter)

 

It would have been the same outcome with SU27. I fly only the MIG21 so far I love it but i know it's limitation. It just can't match with modern aircrafts. Your chance for a kill is to sneak unnoticed befind. That's who I shot lonewolves flankers and Eagles in multiplayers. Other than this, if you merge nose to nose with those guys, the MIG s only survivable chance is to hit the deck and get the hell out of there. It's a small aircraft and you can lose visual contact with it easily

[GGTharos]

I saw 3 F-15's taking way too long to shoot down a single MiG-21. I saw no actual merge setups, pretty much proving that when you start on someone's 6 they're mostly in trouble, and also proving that people generally suck at BFM.

 

While the MiG-21 IS double inferior, there was no actual setup in that session designed to prove it. It was just a free-for-all melee, so I'm not so confident that things 'went as expected'.

 

As for S&G, things didn't end there, Sweep was quite insistent on seeing me start a fight with him on my six. ;)

[Hummingbird]

I saw 3 F-15's taking way too long to shoot down a single MiG-21. I saw no actual merge setups, pretty much proving that when you start on someone's 6 they're mostly in trouble, and also proving that people generally suck at BFM.

 

While the MiG-21 IS double inferior, there was no actual setup in that session designed to prove it. It was just a free-for-all melee, so I'm not so confident that things 'went as expected'.

 

As for S&G, things didn't end there, Sweep was quite insistent on seeing me start a fight with him on my six. ;)

 

I had a good couple of 1 v 1's in there actually, and they ended a lot quicker than the 3 v 1's. I wonder why ;) :P

 

Always a mess when 3 guys are chasing the same target without any form of coordination.

[GGTharos]

Because you were down to 4000lbs fuel? I don't know, I can only guess. There weren't any real 1v1s in the way of a deliberately set up fight, someone was always in there interfering, whether as an aggressor or as a target. Coordination or no is sort of beside the point: If everyone did good BFM you could peel a MiG-21 without a problem. There was no 'you, me, draw at noon' ... just fly into whatever melee there was.

 

Not that I expect good results for the 21, just that I don't believe what happened there was particularly scientific.

 

It was an aerial circus. :)

[Hummingbird]

Because you were down to 4000lbs fuel? I don't know, I can only guess. There weren't any real 1v1s in the way of a deliberately set up fight, someone was always in there interfering, whether as an aggressor or as a target. Coordination or no is sort of beside the point: If everyone did good BFM you could peel a MiG-21 without a problem. There was no 'you, me, draw at noon' ... just fly into whatever melee there was.

 

Not that I expect good results for the 21, just that I don't believe what happened there was particularly scientific.

 

It was an aerial circus. :)

 

No I restarted my flight a couple of times to match up with when he spawned, and we headed straight for each other and begun a fight. Always ended with me on his tail straight away, and from there on it was just a matter of chasing him down.

 

Another MiG-21 or two joined in at one point which I also tried tangling with abit.

 

 

But yeah nothing scientific for sure, but judging by how easy it was to get on their tail each time, even when at an energy disadvantage, I think it was proof enough of the points made here.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Hummingbird

[Deathbane]

MIG-21 is an excellent aircraft for its time, and can be utilised effectively in a modern scenario, but it shouldn't be challenging a F 15 in a one on one fight.

 

Really doesnt make sense from multiple perspectives in the first place. Best downing stuff like A10s and doing interception rather than CAP, maybe some ground attack of its own.

 

You see people like Hadwell and others getting plenty enough kills in MP when the Mig-21 is flown knowing its stubby delta wings just arnt cut out for a dogfight with monsters like the Su 27 and F 15.

 

I have the MIG 21, love flying it (badly), look forward to inviting 3 friends with me to go hunting lone F 15s that are being lazy thinking they own the sky and slip up, as well as Mirages.

 

No need to play fair in a military sim when your aircraft is old.. :thumbup: More MIGs should team up with Sus and multiply their effectiveness in MP.

 

The Mirage im looking forward to seeing how it performs. Its not so much how it performs against the MIG-21 im interested in, but more how it stacks up against the SUs, MIGs, and F15s.

 

I think its going to be a lot of fun.

[GGTharos]

But yeah nothing scientific for sure, but judging by how easy it was to get on their tail each time, even when at an energy disadvantage, I think it was proof enough of the points made here.

 

He was looking at someone else - I know because I was on TS with him so I knew who he was targeting. But again, I don't expect any different results for the MiG-21.

[Hummingbird]

He was looking at someone else - I know because I was on TS with him so I knew who he was targeting. But again, I don't expect any different results for the MiG-21.

 

I know I had a couple of straight on fights with him though (again not saying they were fair though, just that he was definitely targeting me) as we passed each other directly and both started turning. I mean he would respawn immediately each time he got shot down, and the MiG's were shot down in droves so there were a lot of mini fights in the short time we were there.

 

One of those times he went low to circle a hill to prevent me from turning inside him, but my rate was faster so I simply catched up in the circle and then he began a series of wild rolling maneuvers, however I managed to saw his wing off with one of my bursts.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Hummingbird

[Sweep]

I saw 3 F-15's taking way too long to shoot down a single MiG-21. I saw no actual merge setups, pretty much proving that when you start on someone's 6 they're mostly in trouble, and also proving that people generally suck at BFM.

 

While the MiG-21 IS double inferior, there was no actual setup in that session designed to prove it. It was just a free-for-all melee, so I'm not so confident that things 'went as expected'.

 

As for S&G, things didn't end there, Sweep was quite insistent on seeing me start a fight with him on my six. ;)

 

Can't neg rep for the truth. :megalol:

 

That was fun! I really need to figure the MiG-21 out (and fix my bindings...) though... :joystick:

[Hadwell]

in a controlled environment, with two equal pilots, one in a more modern plane and the other in a mig-21, where both players know where each other are, in flat open terrain, the mig-21 stands no chance

 

...versus basically anything...

 

it's an interceptor first and foremost, you play sneaky ninja with it, and try to get kills without being noticed, stay down low, always looking up. There's a reason the mig-21 has a good thrust to weight ratio, use it.

 

that being said, the challenge of not dying makes every kill you get that much sweeter, only noobs let themselves use the best of the best.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Hadwell

[mjmorrow]

I would bet on the Mirage 2000c winning nearly all the time, except against the most highly experienced Mig-21 sim pilots. It can see the Mig first, shoot at the Mig first, BVR. In a fair dogfight, bring an F-16, and don't be shocked if a well flown Mirage 2000c walks all over the F-16 in a close in knife fight, either. :thumbup: MJ

Edited December 9, 2015 by mjmorrow

[jojo]

Unfortunately, for the time being missiles in DCS world seems to be bugged...

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=152429&highlight=missile+chaff+bug

 

So missiles has to be used in close range...

Edited December 9, 2015 by jojo

[Hook47]

I know I had a couple of straight on fights with him though (again not saying they were fair though, just that he was definitely targeting me) as we passed each other directly and both started turning. I mean he would respawn immediately each time he got shot down, and the MiG's were shot down in droves so there were a lot of mini fights in the short time we were there.

 

One of those times he went low to circle a hill to prevent me from turning inside him, but my rate was faster so I simply catched up in the circle and then he began a series of wild rolling maneuvers, however I managed to saw his wing off with one of my bursts.

 

Haven't been able to reply to this for a few days, so I wanted to catch up and give the MiG 21 pilots perspective.

 

Fist of all, thanks to everyone who joined! As I told GGTharos hopefully no one was planning on taking it personally. I was bummed he was the only one who joined TS for whatever reason.

 

About the actual fight- I should start by saying at no time have I claimed the MiG 21 had anything but a disadvantage in a guns only fight with the F-15 (and of course the Mirage) so I don't see how a "grudge" match proved anything. I did it for fun, and fun it was.

 

That being said, and having not actually tried to gun dual F-15s before, I was shocked at how well the MiG 21 did. At one point I had four F-15s all trying to kill me and unable to get a firing position, even with the fancy gun site. At all times I was out numbered yet my faithful little MiG 21 was able to consistently deny the enemy the shot, as Tharos remarked in TS several times, the MiG 21 was "showin them up" for a good margin of the fight. This changed when I shifted my strategy from staying purely defensive to actually trying to get kills. I thus became an easier target and was pounced by Hummingbird or one of the others quite quickly. In fact on the several occasions I was lining up the F-15 for guns shots, I would find myself in the sights of another, and of course with the MiG 21s rudimentary gun sight I wouldn't get a kill before being killed.

 

I scored 4 manuvering kills on pursuing F-15s. True, it isn't a gun kill, but it was still a kill none the less. So things were not as blatantly one sided as they may have been expected to be. Hummingbird, unfortetely I never got a chance to focus on a 1 vs 1 with you because I was either defensive against someone else or trying to get a kill, as Tharos mentioned. Even though I did pass head on with you a couple times in an effort to put you in the worst possible position, because I would often get "sniped" by you if I was already in a fight with someone else. None the less good flying, I had fun duking it out with you guys. I do remember the instance where I was turning towards the hill, but as Tharos may remember in that case I had aileron damage and was in trouble. I also felt my Mig 21s ability to turn with the F-15 bleed away each time I re-spawned against F-15s with far less fuel.

 

All in all I have to admit that all things being equal, and to my actual surprise, I feel totally confident I could avoid being killed by an F-15 in a 1 vs 1 setting in the MiG 21, simply based on my ability to turn with and sometimes into the F-15. I don't think I would ever get into a kill position with guns 1 vs 1 unless the other pilot made an error, but I feel very confident I could stay alive for awhile.

 

Props to Tharos BTW for having the gentleman's courtesy to go into an observer role once he saw me dealing with 3 other F-15s, LOL. I had my hands full!

 

Again, it was a lot of fun guys, and like I said from the start- The MiG 21 is an old bird, but don't write it totally off! It was a hell of a plane for it's time and can turn and burn better than almost any other 3 gen + plane.

 

Also sorry for the sudden shutdown guys, I minimized to check my RAM and the game crashed lol. Go Figure! I had to work so I had no time to bring it back.

 

Thanks again though, I certainly had fun, and the Eagle is a beast of a plane to fight.

 

No surprise. He just didn't want to listen to reason. Anyways, since that fight he didn't show up around here. You went too hard on him Hummingbird!

 

Dude let's just agree to not agree or interact or whatever. I can't figure where you are getting this stuff about me "Not listening to reason" or trolling or whatever, show me a post where I said the MiG 21 was better than the Mirage?! I didn't, I only said it may have a better shot against it than against the other 4th gen fighters on the DCS world scene. Now that the AJS 37 is coming, that has changed! Let's just let it go for goodness sake. It was never trolling, just me saying something less than the MiG would get it butt utterly kicked, and that didn't go over well. I even tried to change the topic many many times only for you, jojo, or that other guy to bring it back up. Like I said, let's let it go.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Hook47

[Hummingbird]

Ramsey,

 

I did actually stay above and observe for a while myself. I didn't want to join in when there were others after you, but no sooner would I find you alone than would another person join in the fight.

 

Infact I disengaged quite a few times just because someone cut in infront of me.

 

There were perhaps one or two times I felt we at least had an honest contest for a little while, and I was on your six very quickly those times. Infact getting on your six was easy (not your fault, the MiG's), it was shooting you down once being on your six which was the real problem with all the rolls and direction changes. I remember having to zoom up to avoid overshooting as you would do violent rolls and scissors, making hitting you hard even with a computing gunsight.

[Hummingbird]

Btw regarding the instance with the hill I was talking about: I don't remember you being shot at before then as it was after a head on pass with me where you traded altitude for energy in the following turn. It was right besides the lake, you circled it twice and I remember how it prevented me from turning inside you and instead forced me to outspeed you in the circle, buying you some time.

 

Oh and btw, why was it done on top of a volcano? :P

[Hook47]

Ramsey,

 

I did actually stay above and observe for a while myself. I didn't want to join in when there were others after you, but no sooner would I find you alone than would another person join in the fight.

 

Infact I disengaged quite a few times just because someone cut in infront of me.

 

There were perhaps one or two times I felt we at least had an honest contest for a little while, and I was on your six very quickly those times. Infact getting on your six was easy (not your fault, the MiG's), it was shooting you down once being on your six which was the real problem with all the rolls and direction changes. I remember having to zoom up to avoid overshooting as you would do violent rolls and scissors, making hitting you hard even with a computing gunsight.

 

No intention to imply you weren't honorable!!! I think you joined later, I was referring to the initial cluster where Tharos rescinded himself.

 

Yes I agree, the Eagle can get on the MiG 21s six faster thanks to a pretty strong TWW and STT advantage (Unless MiG 21 uses emergency AB, which I did not have bound, and couldn't afford to look for the switch!) but my point was I felt confident in my ability to deny the shot in defense of myself.

 

Btw regarding the instance with the hill I was talking about: I don't remember you being shot at before then as it was after a head on pass with me where you traded altitude for energy in the following turn. It was right besides the lake, you circled it twice and I remember how it prevented me from turning inside you and instead forced me to outspeed you in the circle, buying you some time.

 

Perhaps I didn't recall the right moment. Towards the end I was getting tired and sloppy so I wouldn't doubt an outright kill either before or after I got sloppy and started trying too hard to get kills. Like I said, the F-15 enjoys a total advantage, but the MiG 21 is not a slouch. I don't know why we fought on top of a Volcano lol. I guess it is where I dropped the units in a hurry!

Edited December 10, 2015 by Hook47

[Hummingbird]

Next time let's do it 1 v 1 ;)

 

I can set up the server if you'd like :)

[Hook47]

Next time let's do it 1 v 1 ;)

 

I can set up the server if you'd like :)

 

Sure, it would be good practice either way. I would bet you will still down me eventually. I am working all night the rest of the week but I have time this weekend if you want to fly some more. As fun as it was to run from 4 different Eagles I would enjoy a more pure experience!

 

Just so long as you know I'm not trying to convince anyone the MiG 21 is the god of all planes (ahem.. TomcatMcdee...)

 

Now, I'm off to the AJS 37 vs MiG 21 discussion... ROFL

Edited December 10, 2015 by Hook47

[Hummingbird]

Sure, it would be good practice either way. I would bet you will still down me eventually. I am working all night the rest of the week but I have time this weekend if you want to fly some more. As fun as it was to run from 4 different Eagles I would enjoy a more pure experience!

 

Sounds good :)

 

I am up for a few now as well if you've got the time? :)

 

Just so long as you know I'm not trying to convince anyone the MiG 21 is the god of all planes (ahem.. TomcatMcdee...)

 

Don't worry I could care less, I just think it would be fun with some footage of how a well flown MiG-21 would fair against a so-so flown F-15 (I'm not the bragging type :D) :)

 

PS: Remember to map the "nitrous" button this time ;)

Edited December 10, 2015 by Hummingbird

[Hook47]

Sounds good :)

 

I am up for a few now as well if you've got the time? :)

 

Can't now as I am technically working, but I can coordinate via PM for the weekend

[GGTharos]

At all times I was out numbered yet my faithful little MiG 21 was able to consistently deny the enemy the shot, as Tharos remarked in TS several times, the MiG 21 was "showin them up" for a good margin of the fight.

 

My only comment here would be that this wasn't really an F-15 performance issue :D

 

I scored 4 manuvering kills on pursuing F-15s. True, it isn't a gun kill, but it was still a kill none the less.

 

Maneuver kills may not be as satisfying, but they are very meaningful: not only could the other guy not bring weapons to bear, but he couldn't even keep his plane in the air! It's pretty embarrassing. :P

[Hook47]

My only comment here would be that this wasn't really an F-15 performance issue :D

 

Maneuver kills may not be as satisfying, but they are very meaningful: not only could the other guy not bring weapons to bear, but he couldn't even keep his plane in the air! It's pretty embarrassing. :P

 

Well I would have to agree, the F-15 flow correctly should be able to down the MiG 21 flown equally in a guns fight, but I think the MiG 21 has enough merits to hang in there a bit at least if flown right. It goes back to my never stating the MiG had any advantage in a guns only or 1 vs 1 fight, the MiG 21 requires the pilot to put it in the most advantageous position possible before tangling with a modern bird, which is what I strive to do regularly in the 104th. Against a SU or MiG 29, however, I find myself totally avoiding a merge unless I completely have the jump, and that is based largely of that nasty HMD that I enjoy so much when flying those planes.

 

But I guess we are digressing a bit, as this thread was intended for the dreaded Mig 21 Vs Mirage 2000 discussion. Although I think the topic has been fully explored, and there isn't too much disagreement that the M2000C will be at an advantage. My initial impression (from watching testing footage) was that the MiG 21 would conserve energy better and perhaps have a better chance in that limited aspect, but CPTSmiley has said the EFM will be brought in better line with the published performance, and based on that, the M2000C will easily out turn the MiG 21 and even the F-15 and SU-27 (Altough the SU can make up for that with ASC off). I am most curious to see the energy loss comparison between the two, as it may be my only strategy in a Fishbed to stave off a hungry M2000C.

 

There was one rather significant point I missed however, and that is the emergency after burner. My understanding is the MiG 21 enjoys a near 1.1 TWW ratio with the EAB engaged (this can be used for 3 minutes, with a 30 second cool down) which places it quite a bit above the .79 of the optimally loaded M2000C, which may be a strategy for the Fishbed to at least get away from the M2000C.

 

EDIT: I've seen two different TWW ratios for the M2000C, one saying .79 and one .88. I've found 0.80 - Mig-21 Bis (T/W - 1.12 in emergency thrust mode) for the Mig 21Bis.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Hook47

[Hummingbird]

Whilst the Mirage will beat the F-15 both in terms of STR and ITR, I don't think it will beat the Su-27 in these areas.

 

EDIT: I've seen two different TWW ratios for the M2000C' date=' one saying .79 and one .88. I've found 0.80 - Mig-21 Bis (T/W - 1.12 in emergency thrust mode) for the Mig 21Bis.[/quote']

 

What loadings for the MiG-21?

 

For a fully fueled Mirage 2000C with 2x 550's and 250 rnds of 30mm ammunition the T/W ratio at full afterburner is 0.91 and climb rate is over 55,000 ft/min.

 

At combat weight, which is 50% fuel, the T/W ratio goes up to 1.05.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Hummingbird