BF 109 K4 vs FW 190 D9 vs P51D; cant decide

[EliteKatze]

Hey guys, so I am still not quite sure whether I should get the BF 109 K4 or FW 190 in this game, but if the characteristics are decently realistic, then it should be something like this concerning its strengths:

 

P51: high range with ext. fuel tanks, body armor, much ammunition for .50 cals

 

BF 109: fast acceleration (best hp/weight ratio), good climb speed, very maneuverable, good max speed, good engine cooling

 

Fw 190 decent acceleration, good max speed, decent climb, very good armament with a lot of ammunition

 

I was going more for the bf109 k4, but what do you guys think or is the fw190 realy superior for doing dogfighting, cuz its a bit heavier, but not as heavy as the P51?

 

Also does the 109 k4 have 2x13mm and 20mm or 2x13mm and 30mm in this game? CAn the BF 109 also have additional wing cannons, because in real life it can and can it also have few rockets here?

 

Yours sincerely,

EliteKatze

[DrJet]

I only have 190D and P51D. Both of them, imo, are nice planes (maybe too nice). If you have a rudder, I suggest 190D over P51D as you need to use lots of rudder (I do) for 190D.

[Aluminum Donkey]

Hey guys, so I am still not quite sure whether I should get the BF 109 K4 or FW 190 in this game, but if the characteristics are decently realistic, then it should be something like this concerning its strengths:

 

P51: high range with ext. fuel tanks, body armor, much ammunition for .50 cals

 

BF 109: fast acceleration (best hp/weight ratio), good climb speed, very maneuverable, good max speed, good engine cooling

 

Fw 190 decent acceleration, good max speed, decent climb, very good armament with a lot of ammunition

 

I was going more for the bf109 k4, but what do you guys think or is the fw190 realy superior for doing dogfighting, cuz its a bit heavier, but not as heavy as the P51?

 

Also does the 109 k4 have 2x13mm and 20mm or 2x13mm and 30mm in this game? CAn the BF 109 also have additional wing cannons, because in real life it can and can it also have few rockets here?

 

Yours sincerely,

EliteKatze

 

They're all very nice, I recommend getting all three!

 

The P-51D is probably the easiest to fly. I'm not sure if it's because of who did the flight modelling, or if the real German fighters were trickier to fly and the real P-51 was well-damped and easy to handle. In DCS World, the German planes tend to oscillate a lot more in the yaw axis (nose swings left/right a lot) and the Fw-190D-9 does it continuously. It's almost impossible to take off and land the German fighters without rudder pedals because of the strong reaction torque from their powerful engines. The P-51D, however, can be flown without rudder pedals if you're in a pinch. It's great for getting started with these highly-detailed WW2 aircraft.

 

That being said, the German planes are more heavily armed and also have higher power to weight ratios. They are generally better dogfighters. The 190 has two 13mm guns and two 20mm cannons, the 109K-4 has two 13mm guns as well as a huge 30mm MK-108 cannon firing through the propeller hub. One or two hits from the MK-108 will knock down a P-51 :)

 

If you can't decide, just get all of 'em :smilewink: If you want to go easy on the wallet, start with the P-51D and then try out one of the German fighters after a little while when you're ready to fly a prop plane with more engine power, a higher climb rate, better turning ability, and beefier armament--and trickier handling.

 

Peace and happy warfare

Ian

Edited November 8, 2015 by Aluminum Donkey

[Weegie]

Dunno how good a pilot you are, but I reckon you're going to spend quite a bit of time just learning to take off and land the German birds.

 

With a full fuel load the Dora is a beast to land. If you're like me though you're going to have a lot of fun doing it. Look at taking off and landing the Dora threads & there are similar threads on the Kurfurst.

 

My personal fave is the Dora but I have them both. Wait for a flash sale and nab the pair you won't regret it IMHO.

[Nedum]

If I had known how "strange" the FM of the K-4 would be I had never give a cent for this module!

For me the FM of the BF109 is the worst of the three (P51, FW, BF).

Yes you can out turn and out climb all other WWII Planes, but the flight behavior is like the ride on an electric bull. You never have a good control about this plane.

I really "hate" how the K-4 behaves. Nothing I would expect from a real plane.

The K-4 flies more like an UFO.

The best planes are right now (for me) 1. the P51D and 2. (not far behind) the FW 190 D-9.

Both have a real good feeling how a plane should act in the air. Both "fly" in every aspect. They feel right.

So if you like the feeling of how a plane flies, I would say go for the FW 190. She is 1000 times better as the K-4. Without all this "magic" behaviors, the K-4 may become the better plane. But right now she is a mess for me.

She is one of those „if it flies really shitty it must be right“ planes.

Go for the FW190!

Edited November 7, 2015 by Nedum

[rrohde]

I don't share Nedum's opinion at all. The 109 is my favorite DCS WW2 module and it's a joy in the air. Taking off requires a bit of practice (left rudder is a must), and so does landing. But when airborne, it's a lot of fun.

FYI - I also own the P51 and the 190, but I fly the 109 the most. :)

[DieHard]

(RE: Message #6)

 

Me, too! Though, I do tend to break the engine too often.

 

I quit buying the betas, too much of a wasted learning curve before ED decides what they want for final release. I wait for a good sale after final release. Though, when the Hornet becomes available I may break that pattern.

 

I have all three copters, but some of the jets I still have not purchased. Probably I will not get all the WWII birds as they become available. Just too much brain overload for me.

Edited November 8, 2015 by DieHard

[Grundar]

I am a 190 advocate as I find the 190 the most enjoyable to fly. It can be initially quite difficult to take off and land with it, especially with heavier fuel loads - you will need rudder and she has a tendency to try and drop a wing as well on takeoff. It has great performance and good armament, just don't get caught in a turning fight with her - that's where the 109 exceeds the Dora spectacularly.

 

The 190 was also the first ergonomic cockpit with more of a HOTAS setup than previous WW2 aircraft - makes it easier to access and read instrumentation imo. The Ez-42 Gunsight is also fun to play with once you get used to how it works.

[fastfreddie]

If I had known how "strange" the FM of the K-4 would be I had never give a cent for this module!

For me the FM of the BF109 is the worst of the three (P51, FW, BF).

Yes you can out turn and out climb all other WWII Planes, but the flight behavior is like the ride on an electric bull. You never have a good control about this plane.

I really "hate" how the K-4 behaves. Nothing I would expect from a real plane.

The K-4 flies more like an UFO.

The best planes are right now (for me) 1. the P51D and 2. (not far behind) the FW 190 D-9.

Both have a real good feeling how a plane should act in the air. Both "fly" in every aspect. They feel right.

So if you like the feeling of how a plane flies, I would say go for the FW 190. She is 1000 times better as the K-4. Without all this "magic" behaviors, the K-4 may become the better plane. But right now she is a mess for me.

She is one of those „if it flies really shitty it must be right“ planes.

Go for the FW190!

 

Since 1.5 updates the K-4 is much easier to fly. The Dora is still my favorite plane so far.

[Crumpp]

Since 1.5 updates

 

The Dora holds it own against the P-51 in the angle fight, IMHO especially if you lag pursuit. It beats the P-51 in level speed and climb in the low altitude fight.

[Aluminum Donkey]

The Dora holds it own against the P-51 in the angle fight, IMHO especially if you lag pursuit. It beats the P-51 in level speed and climb in the low altitude fight.

 

It also accelerates like a cannonball, with over 2,200 HP as opposed to the Mustang's 'mere' 1700 or so. Both aircraft weigh about the same.

 

In DCS World, the FW-190 turns with the Mustang, even slightly better. I'm not sure that's right. The 190 had a high wing loading (small wing for the weight of the airplane) for a WW2 plane; the Mustang was more typical in that regard, and it also had huge trailing edge flaps. I think the flight models for one or both aircraft may be slightly off--either that or the 190 had a higher-lift airfoil than the Mustang, which had a low-drag laminar-flow wing which was optimized for reaching the highest speeds with the available power, and good fuel economy which helped give the Mustang its long range. The 190's airfoil may have been optimized for higher lift instead of lowest drag.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Aluminum Donkey

[Aluminum Donkey]

If I had known how "strange" the FM of the K-4 would be I had never give a cent for this module!

For me the FM of the BF109 is the worst of the three (P51, FW, BF).

Yes you can out turn and out climb all other WWII Planes, but the flight behavior is like the ride on an electric bull. You never have a good control about this plane.

I really "hate" how the K-4 behaves. Nothing I would expect from a real plane.

The K-4 flies more like an UFO.

The best planes are right now (for me) 1. the P51D and 2. (not far behind) the FW 190 D-9.

Both have a real good feeling how a plane should act in the air. Both "fly" in every aspect. They feel right.

So if you like the feeling of how a plane flies, I would say go for the FW 190. She is 1000 times better as the K-4. Without all this "magic" behaviors, the K-4 may become the better plane. But right now she is a mess for me.

She is one of those „if it flies really shitty it must be right“ planes.

Go for the FW190!

 

Dude, the 'weirdness' you're experiencing is the result of the 109K-4 having one of the highest power-to-weight ratios of any WW2 plane ever built. The swinging to the left on takeoff, the dropping and dragging a wingtip on the ground when you open the throttle, the sideways 'crabbing' of the aircraft as you takeoff without lots of rudder input--these are all real handling quirks that real 109K-4 pilots had to learn to deal with to stay alive and minimize damage to their aircraft just taking off and landing! When you have a very lightweight, small airplane with 1850 HP under the hood and a huge geared-down propeller on the front, combined with narrow-track landing gear, there's gonna be a certain skill level needed just to 'drive the bus' as it were... and what you gain is nearly untouchable flight performance.

 

I'll be the first to admit I actually kinda suck at flying it, but I've been too lazy to get some rudder pedals and learn to use them right. But once you get a handle on it, the 109K-4 will put you at the top of your WW2 dogfighting game. If you want to fly whole missions including taking off and landing, rudder pedals are a must-have for the 109, much like they're absolutely necessary for flying the Huey and Mi-8 helicopters. If you don't have them, you'll be best off with the Mustang, which can be flown without them.

[Nedum]

Dude? :megalol:

To make it short... no!

No time to explain the world of physic again and again and again.....!

If you think that the BF109 K-4 behaves any near in RL as she does like in this game, then this is ok, but I have dicussed so many times the behavior of planes and many people told me the planes must fly like they do right now and a few month later the planes are flying as I have told, but I was wrong before. :huh:

Look at the Su27.

I can't tell how often even Yo-Yo told me... "you are wrong" with how the throttle should working for the Su27 and the friction of the wheels and so on.

And now with 1.5 the Su27 has all this "wrong" features and I'll bet there will be some more incoming.

The same game with the F15C and the FW190.

Please do not try to tell me how wrong my thoughts are. Most of the time, even it last a bit, I was right from the start, because most of this game is physic and for this you must not really fly the RL bird.... it's pure logic you need.

I see every day (in RL ;)) taildragger land and start and 3 times the month a FW190 A6, and I never saw any behavior we have in this game at those birds during a landing or a start.

The FW190 in DCS is now a really good flying plane and even the starts and landings are 100 times more ease as it was at the beginning.

And no.. it's not because I am now more trained... I have used different patches for my tests. And Even I can land and start the FW190 with both hands on my back, the K4 is a pain in the ass to start and land.

So no, I will never believe that the current behavior of the K-4 is any near like the bird would behave in RL. Even I've looked at the RL Vids I couldn't see any of the DCS K-4 behaviors.

I will never believe that you couldn't trim out the K-4 at a speed higher as 460 kph.

Sooner or later we will see that the K4 will become more like a RL plane.... I'll trust in ED! :thumbup:

Edited November 8, 2015 by Nedum

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Nedum,but they're all converging towards PERFECTION :-)

 

I feel the K4, if operated like it was actually IRL, with ATA values above 1,3 seldom used inflight, and with the simulation of stick forces and now also the blackout effects, is very close to what I believe should behave the real thing.

 

I still find it difficult to explain to myself why there are so many tail heavy trim positions never used unless you run out of stick recovering from a dive, but after so many "discussions" with Yo-Yo where I end up finding out after all that he is a good deal of knowledge and reason in what he claims, I'm accepting it just as it is :-)