Tips for new Mirage pilots

[carlos.gh]

Probably the same (if they every flew a non-FBW aircraft).

However, in terms of training and combat effectiveness FBW is a huge improvement, since pilots can concentrate more on SA and weapon employement, rather than flying the aircraft (not even counting the benefits of relaxed stability). A guy like him is one in a million (edit: I mean a guy able to master his aircraft like this)...

It's the same with computerized engine control, you don't have to worry about radiators, air intake pressure and whatnot :D

 

Why is that?? :huh:

 

Not the first time we hear an old pilot commenting that he doesn't enjoy FBW aircraft as much as he used to enjoy his good-ole' jetfighter from the 60's...

 

First, I have talked about the joy of flight, not combat effectiveness. F-16 has always had a lot of hype as the ultimate dog-fighter, highly manoeuvrable and a pleasure fly machine. I am sure if we asked this community (before this video) about what aircraft is the funniest to flight for pilots between these two models, the F-16 would be the winner by a huge margin.

[Winfield_Gold]

I have a tip.

 

Wait for the release.....

[Arden]

Oh come on, don't be so negative.

 

I think if we can get Prowler in here, he could definitely give us some pointers.

[Moos_tachu]

First, I have talked about the joy of flight, not combat effectiveness. F-16 has always had a lot of hype as the ultimate dog-fighter, highly manoeuvrable and a pleasure fly machine. I am sure if we asked this community (before this video) about what aircraft is the funniest to flight for pilots between these two models, the F-16 would be the winner by a huge margin.

 

If you say so......

[Fab]

do you feel proud when you fly a plane that is newer and superior than smaller and older ones designed for other purposes? the F15C systems arent even simulated, it s a game for kids.

 

just stop bragging around when you fly a toy against a real sim.

 

have a nice evening

 

:thumbup:

[Fab]

First, I have talked about the joy of flight, not combat effectiveness. F-16 has always had a lot of hype as the ultimate dog-fighter, highly manoeuvrable and a pleasure fly machine. I am sure if we asked this community (before this video) about what aircraft is the funniest to flight for pilots between these two models, the F-16 would be the winner by a huge margin.

 

No doubt, that the F-16 is our time Spitfire... Once in a life time, this ultima fighter plane is buildt...

 

I for one would love to have the F-16, I would love to fly it, and fight it....

 

But my dream plane to get is the F-104... We all have our strange wishes :music_whistling:

[Charly_Owl]

I'll probably be stoned to death for saying this... but I prefer the Mirage to the F-16 by far.

[mjmorrow]

I'll probably be stoned to death for saying this... but I prefer the Mirage to the F-16 by far.

 

+1 I really like both, but I like the Mirage 2000c far more than the F-16 for WVR Air to Air. If, in multiplayer, we are hitting a ground target or if it is a BVR situation and the AIM-120c is in the picture, I may feel differently, but in a WVR furball, I would rather the Mirage 2000c, hands down. :thumbup: MJ

Edited December 21, 2015 by mjmorrow

[PiedDroit]

First, I have talked about the joy of flight, not combat effectiveness. F-16 has always had a lot of hype as the ultimate dog-fighter, highly manoeuvrable and a pleasure fly machine. I am sure if we asked this community (before this video) about what aircraft is the funniest to flight for pilots between these two models, the F-16 would be the winner by a huge margin.

Hyped as ultimate dog-fighter does not mean funny or a joy to fly (easy maybe).

However F-16 has a clean canopy that is great for enjoying the scenery. And a reclined seat - but known for giving neck pain.

Try flying a MiG-21, now this is funny, high AoA departures, crazy landings, in flight engine restarts...

It's all in the perceptions - and taste ;)

Thread has derailed a bit :music_whistling:

[mvsgas]

I'll probably be stoned to death for saying this... but I prefer the Mirage to the F-16 by far.

 

+1 I really like both, but I like the Mirage 2000c far more than the F-16 for WVR Air to Air. If, in multiplayer, we are hitting a ground target or if it is a BVR situation and the AIM-120c is in the picture, I may feel differently, but in a WVR furball, I would rather the Mirage 2000c, hands down. :thumbup: MJ

Any specific reason or just personal favorite?

I prefer the -16 but mainly because I worked on them. Additionally, The right block -16 with JHMCS type HOBS and AIM-9X\Phython 5\AIM-2000\AIM-132 could be very lethal.

 

I think in the Mirage, our biggest challenge will be to learn to conserve energy in WVR fight and we need to learn how to get there against so many longer range missile systems on other aircraft. AFAIK, we would be able to point the nose very quickly ( like many other delta wing aircraft, like the F-106) but loose a lot of energy. With a single spool engine, I also wonder how susceptible the SNECMA M53-P2 is to compressor stagnation.

Edited December 21, 2015 by mvsgas

[Charly_Owl]

@mvsgas

 

I grew up reading those:

 

 

IMHO the Mirage is to the french what the Spitfire is to the Brits or what the F-16 is to the Americans. In many ways, the Mirage is an iconic plane that was the incarnation of aeronautical french design.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Charly_Owl

[mjmorrow]

Any specific reason or just personal favorite?

I prefer the -16 but mainly because I worked on them. Additionally, The right block -16 with JHMCS type HOBS and AIM-9X\Phython 5\AIM-2000\AIM-132 could be very lethal.

 

I think in the Mirage, our biggest challenge will be to learn to conserve energy in WVR fight and we need to learn how to get there against so many longer range missile systems on other aircraft. AFAIK, we would be able to point the nose very quickly ( like many other delta wing aircraft) but loose a lot of energy. With a single spool engine, I also wonder how susceptible the SNECMA M53-P2 is to compressor stagnation.

 

In part, for sentimental reasons. French planes, such as the SPAD VII Chasseur, French air aces, such as Georges Guynemer & Rene Fonck, and US Aces using French Chasseurs, such as Edward Rickenbacker, inspired me to get involved in flight simulation. I see the Mirage 2000c as a sort of spiritual successor to the SPAD VII. The Mirage 2000c reminds me of the very reasons I sim fly in the first place.

 

:thumbup: MJ

 

Edited December 21, 2015 by mjmorrow

[mvsgas]

@mvsgas

I grew up reading those:

IMHO the Mirage is to the french what the Spitfire is to the Brits or what the F-16 is to the Americans. In many ways, the Mirage is an iconic plane that was the incarnation of aeronautical french design.

 

 

Cool, thanks. Are you specifically talking about the Mirage III?

I do not think the F-16 means that much to general American people, not the same way the Spitfire in known in the UK AFAIK.

 

@mjmorrow,

Thanks.

Edited December 21, 2015 by mvsgas

[ineth]

What does that mean exactly?

 

 

Well, here is what we know from the Hellenic Air Force.

Mirage's got a very weak engine compared to other planes. At high altitudes this matters very little because the immense lift makes up for it.

At lower altitudes it is not capable to use its engine to get itself out of trouble so sooner or later they will loose.

 

On the bright side though you can use the Magic2 missiles. According to HAF it is superb and betters the amraam nine out of ten even if only for the simple reason it tracks both with radar and heat signature at the same time making a one missile kill allot easier, instead of the 2 missile need per kill witch is a common doctrine for NATO.

[mjmorrow]

Cool, thanks. Are you specifically talking about the Mirage III?

I do not think the F-16 means that much to general American people, not the same way the Spitfire in known in the UK AFAIK.

 

@mjmorrow,

Thanks.

 

The F-16 is arguably under appreciated in the US, though, as a Battlestar Galactica fan, I have to respect any machine nicknamed, The Viper. :smilewink:

 

:thumbup: MJ

[Cool Breeze]

Well, here is what we know from the Hellenic Air Force.

Mirage's got a very weak engine compared to other planes. At high altitudes this matters very little because the immense lift makes up for it.

At lower altitudes it is not capable to use its engine to get itself out of trouble so sooner or later they will loose.

 

On the bright side though you can use the Magic2 missiles. According to HAF it is superb and betters the amraam nine out of ten even if only for the simple reason it tracks both with radar and heat signature at the same time making a one missile kill allot easier, instead of the 2 missile need per kill witch is a common doctrine for NATO.

 

I maybe wrong, but I believe you are thinking of the MICA. The M550 Magic is only infrared guided. The MICA comes in two flavors active radar homing, like the AIM-120 AMRAMM, and standard infrared homing as far a I know. We are not getting MICA or any other ARH missiles in this package.

[mvsgas]

Well, here is what we know from the Hellenic Air Force.

Mirage's got a very weak engine compared to other planes. At high altitudes this matters very little because the immense lift makes up for it.

At lower altitudes it is not capable to use its engine to get itself out of trouble so sooner or later they will loose.

 

On the bright side though you can use the Magic2 missiles. According to HAF it is superb and betters the amraam nine out of ten even if only for the simple reason it tracks both with radar and heat signature at the same time making a one missile kill allot easier, instead of the 2 missile need per kill witch is a common doctrine for NATO.

 

I thought the Mirage 2000 used in HAF is different than the one we are getting. Different weapons, systems and capabilities.

 

Cool Breeze, I agree, it sounds like a MICA.

[Azrayen]

I thought the Mirage 2000 used in HAF is different than the one we are getting. Different weapons, systems and capabilities.

Yes indeed.

Their first aircraft were EG (export RDM), relatively close to the C RDI we'll get (but not the same nonetheless).

And nowdays most HAF aircraft are either newly buit -5 EG or old EG upgraded to -5 Mk2 standard => much more advanced, not comparable with the soon-to-be-ours C RDI.

 

On the bright side though you can use the Magic2 missiles. According to HAF it is superb and betters the amraam nine out of ten even if only for the simple reason it tracks both with radar and heat signature at the same time making a one missile kill allot easier, instead of the 2 missile need per kill witch is a common doctrine for NATO.

I'm sorry, but you are confused (twice):

- (as already said above) the MICA can be compared to the AMRAAM, the Magic 2 cannot (it's more of the AIM-9 class)

- the MICA exists in EM or IR variants, which are respectively ARH and IR homing. There is no dual-seeker MICA. And MICAs don't go on the M-2000C.

[jojo]

Any specific reason or just personal favorite?

I prefer the -16 but mainly because I worked on them. Additionally, The right block -16 with JHMCS type HOBS and AIM-9X\Phython 5\AIM-2000\AIM-132 could be very lethal.

 

I think in the Mirage, our biggest challenge will be to learn to conserve energy in WVR fight and we need to learn how to get there against so many longer range missile systems on other aircraft. AFAIK, we would be able to point the nose very quickly ( like many other delta wing aircraft, like the F-106) but loose a lot of energy. With a single spool engine, I also wonder how susceptible the SNECMA M53-P2 is to compressor stagnation.

 

Yep, but we're not talking about the same era here.

 

Mirage 2000 C is good for late 80' to 90' scenario. It's not really front line fighter anymore in France.

 

You're latest F-16 block would have to face Mirage 2000-5/9 or Rafale...

 

Don't worry too much about engine, Dassault's test pilot used to perform tail slide during air show.

[mvsgas]

Yep, but we're not talking about the same era here.

Mirage 2000 C is good for late 80' to 90' scenario. It's not really front line fighter anymore in France.

You're latest F-16 block would have to face Mirage 2000-5/9 or Rafale...

Don't worry too much about engine, Dassault's test pilot used to perform tail slide during air show.

I though we where talking about aircraft we like for "X" or "Y" reasons. ( Hence the Mirrage III picture presented by Charly_Owl)

Anyway, I was asking about the M53 engine since the manual released (WIP) stated on Page 21;

The Single spool design of the turbofan engine has it's draw backs. When one compressor section stalls on a single-spool fan, it directly effects the entire spool.

So, I wonder what could cause compressor stagnation/stall? Aircraft Alpha, intake cone malfunction, rapid throttle movements, etc.

Using the MiG-21 as the only other aircraft in DCS (flyable) with movable cone in the intake we seen that in certain conditions the compressor will stagnate/ stall.

[jojo]

Well, read back my answer until the end...

 

Watch for tailslide at the beginning of video.

Edited December 22, 2015 by jojo

[sedenion]

So, I wonder what could cause compressor stagnation/stall? Aircraft Alpha, intake cone malfunction, rapid throttle movements, etc.

Using the MiG-21 as the only other aircraft in DCS (flyable) with movable cone in the intake we seen that in certain conditions the compressor will stagnate/ stall.

 

Il the M2000, maybe a malfunction of the "souris" ("mouses", what you call "intake cone" i think) at high speed (above mach 1.5) because of air compression due to supersonic wave front... (the "mouses" are here to break this wave front to prevent engine failure at high speed, maybe this "compressor stall"). But... i'm not aerodynamics engineer...

[sedenion]

About M53-P2 and compressor stall, the M53-P2 have many protection systems to prevent stall. This is from the French Wikipedia about M53-P2 (interesting part underlined):

 

Accélération rapide

 

À partir de conditions stabilisées, si le débit carburant augmente rapidement par un mouvement rapide de la manette des gaz, l'augmentation de la température devant la turbine (Tt5) provoque, quasiment à iso-régime, une diminution du débit d'air et une augmentation du rapport de pression par obstruction thermique au niveau du distributeur de turbine. Le point de fonctionnement du turboréacteur se déplace vers la limite de décrochage sans l'atteindre si le turboréacteur accélère suffisamment rapidement pour atteindre son nouveau régime stabilisé. C'est le système de contrôle d'accélération qui limite l'augmentation du débit carburant afin que le point de fonctionnement du moteur en transitoire n'interfère pas avec la limite de décrochage.

 

 

Déceleration rapide

 

À partir des conditions stabilisées au Plein Gaz, dans le cas d'une décélération rapide, la tuyère présente un retard important à l'ouverture qui peut entrainer le décollement tournant à bas-régime. Pour y remédier, un dispositif provoque l'ouverture rapide de la tuyères à la détection d'une section trop faible au bas-régime.

 

 

Allumage de la Post-combustion

 

À la suite de l'allumage de la post-combustion il s'ensuit une obstruction thermique dans le canal PC qui provoque une diminution du débit d'air et une augmentation du rapport de pression.Le point de fonctionnement du turboréacteur se déplace vers la limite de décrochage.Si le déplacement est inférieur à la marge de décrochage du compresseur la régulation ramène le point de fonctionnement à sa position initiale.Si ce n'est pas le cas le compresseur décroche. Afin d'assurer une marge au décrochage suffisante au moment de l'allumage de la PC, la régulation commande une pré-ouverture de la tuyère pendant la phase préalable de remplissage des rampes PC. Une fois la PC allumée les variations brusques de charge PC (augmentation rapide de carburant) par le pilote présente les mêmes inconvénients qu'à l'allumage mais en plus progressif ce qui permet à la régulation de faire son travail de synchronisation de la charge PC et de la section de tuyère.

 

 

Absorption brutale de gaz chauds lors du tir engin

 

L'absorption de gaz chauds par le turboréacteur lors d'un tir de missile entraine une augmentation brusque de la température d'entrée (Tt2) du compresseur.Pour éviter que le point de fonctionnement transitoire du turboréacteur n'atteigne la limite de décrochage un dispositif appelé "appauvrisseur de tir" provoque différents déterrages sur les lois de régime, de tuyère et de DSV (détendeur à section variable). Ainsi la marge au décrochage augmente tant que dure le régime transitoire due au sillage chaud du missile.

(attempt) summary in english:

 

- To prevent stall at quick acceleration, this is an electronic regulator that prevent the stall effect by modulating the transition phase.

 

- To prevent stall at quick desceleration, the stall effect is prevented by opening the nozzle when unbalanced pressure is detected.

 

- To prevent stall at afterburner activation, the regulator command a pre-opening of the nozzle. For fast afterburner variation the regulator prevent unbalanced pressures.

 

- To prevent stall at brutal absorption of hot air at missile launch... well, hem... there is a special thing ( named "shooting weakener" of something like that ) that do things and detect things with others things that prevent stall (too many technical jargon here) :D

Edited December 22, 2015 by sedenion

[ineth]

So glad to have stired the forum a bit up. i am not a french weapon systems expert by any stretch and unfortunatly my library (my huge library) is about 5.000km far from here. You are probably right about the MICA MAGIC 2 confusion i had.

And yes, the Greek versions of the Mirage2000 are rather different as far as electronics are concerned. The engine issue is still...... an issue though.

 

When i was dreaming of a delta winged aircraft i was kinda wishing for the Viggen though.

But now a question. Has any one of you took a closer look of the F16XL programm? Was that insane or what?

 

p.s

A fun fact.

You know the water faucet type with one lever where you are mixing with one movement hot with cold water instead of the old two faucet system? That was originaly from a Mirage F1 regulator. A mechanic took the idea and..... the rest we all know.

Edited December 22, 2015 by ineth

[sedenion]

And yes, the Greek versions of the Mirage2000 are rather different as far as electronics are concerned. The engine issue is still...... an issue though.

 

That can be interesting to know if the greek Mirage 2000 are equipped with M53-5 or M53-P2 engine... The M53-5 is the earlier version, 10% less powerful (M53-5: 55kN / 84 kN (AB) -- M53-P2: 65kN / 96 kN (AB) ).

 

Objectively, the Mirage 2000 is a bit less well motorised than the F-16, but not that much:

M2000

Weight (empty): 7 800 kg

Max Thrust: 64 kN, 96 kN (AB)

Thrust to weight (empty): 0.82 / 1.23

 

F-16

Weight (empty): 8 272 kg

Max Thrust: 79 kN, 106 kN (AB)

Thrust to weight (empty): 0.96 / 1.29

 

( some sources claim the M53-P2 with 98kN at afterburner, others at 96kN, don't know what is the truth)