Air-to-Air Missile Discussion

[GGTharos]

They are all in the missiles_data.lua.

 

What are you going to do with them? :)

[D4n]

Not home till Friday.

 

Obviously gonna compare the values and see how much worse R-77 ingame is vs. AIM-120C compared to real life R-77-1 (which is operational already in real airforce iirc and is improved version). :) What do you think about this?

[GGTharos]

There is no operational R-77-1 AFAIK, and the parameters for the modeled in game missile are from a Russian book that lists rocket motor parameters. Got such info for this R-77-1? Many would be interested :-)

[D4n]

Will research data the upcoming days.

[D4n]

http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-674.html

 

here it says missile range (ramjet version)  up to 150-160 km against targets such as AWACS (180 km dr.dannym) 

Airspeed - about 5 M ...

 

And here http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/r77/r77.shtml

 

it says normal R-77 "striking targets, maneuvering with an overload of 12 units". Missile goes Mach 4.5.

 

Here http://www.airwar.ru/weapon/avv/r77.html

 

it states "Max. launch range in PPP km  100"

 

And here http://bastion-opk.ru/r-77-rvv/

 

"Under certain conditions (start at low-flying targets, attack the target from behind, start the action of interference in the ranging channel radar aircraft carrier) guidance is carried out by special paths, to improve the accuracy of guidance and favorable conditions of work seeker and proximity fuze in the presence of natural and man-made interference."

 

I also read that some newer version (not ramjet) has 110km range.

 

Here http://www.airbase.ru/hangar/russia/vympel/r/77/index-t.htm

 

it even says "The development consists more, at least two versions of RVV-AE. One has the CBC IR, the other - an improved engine, with a range of up to 160 km (86 nm)." That's the ramjet version.

[GGTharos]

There are no IR, Ramjet or 'improved' versions. The 100km range is at 15000-20000m with both target and shooter going M1.5-2.0 according to some official brochure.

 

There's only the base R-77 that we know of.

 

Russia is testing RVV-SD instead but I'm not certain that anyone has seen pictures of it.

 

India and China have the base R-77, but I believe China prefers its PL-12.

[D4n]

OK then I'll look in the missiles_data.lua file and check if they are the ones I posted above (the missile speed Mach 4.5, 12 G turns. Are the values in the lua in real Mach and the g limit in real "g" ? And the length, diameter and weight of missile given too?)

 

Tharos could you please do me a little favor and upload all the key lines of code asap concerning the R-77 performance (and 120C ?) into a txt file or sth. I can read on Android smartphone, so I can compare today please? :)

[GGTharos]

In missiles_data you will find rocket parameters. They will 'physically' accelerate the missile to the correct speed, but it is dynamic (if the missile turns, you won't hit that speed. If you launch from too slow a speed or altitude, you won't hit that speed). The actual 'speed' parameter is ignored now.

 

The g limiter doesn't appear to be working, max g is governed by the lift parameters 'at speed/altitude'. Missiles achieve much more g than what you stated ... the 12g is 'target g', and you can only achieve this type of intercept under some circumstances (ie. missile not too slow ... )

 

Not sure if the diameter matters to the drag calculations (I believe it does not at this point - there's another parameter replacing this value), but the weight does since it affects acceleration.

 

Fuel has weight and is consumed :)

 

I'll upload the data when I get home :)

[D4n]

Thank you very much!

 

Is there an engine burn time in ms given in the file aswell?

[GGTharos]

It's given in seconds. You're not going to find detail on the ms level - I mean at that point you need a graph of the actual rocket motor function and you model the graph exactly. Not very productive :)

[D4n]

And by that you mean that graphs of military rocket engine function are military secret and not available for DCS development? :P

 

And you DO realise that AIM-120C was operational FAR later than when first R-77 went operational on MiG-29S, right? (So the only real advantage that remains in DCS in the MiG-29S vs. the F-15C is the EOS and HMD off-bore-sight capability with R-73 and everything else DCS F-15 is superior? :/ )

[Frostie]

R-77 is comparable to 120A which by accounts should have some chaff issues. The 120C is almost immune by comparison.

 

Immune to chaff, probably not immune but more on a level with pulse doppler radars. Monopulse radars as used on active missiles are susceptible to chaff, I should imagine the C went someway to alleviate this that is all.

[GGTharos]

And by that you mean that graphs of military rocket engine function are military secret and not available for DCS development? :P

 

Some are available, but usually not the ones you want. Thebest you can hope for usually is thrust + time or fuel weight + time or similar.

 

And you DO realise that AIM-120C was operational FAR later than when first R-77 went operational on MiG-29S, right?

 

You DO realize that the R-77 never went operational on the MiG-29S, yes? :D (And by that time, 120B was operational, radically superior to 120A)

 

The R-77 in DCS is a treat for you. It should flat out not be available on the 29S - Russia didn't buy/stockpile any R-77's, or if they did, their pilots don't seem to know about about that according to ED devs.

 

(So the only real advantage that remains in DCS in the MiG-29S vs. the F-15C is the EOS and HMD off-bore-sight capability with R-73 and everything else DCS F-15 is superior? :/ )

 

The MiG-29S shouldn't have any BVR parity, never mind superiority, over the F-15C. In-game, that's not quite represented.

 

In WVR, yes, the MiG has the HMS+73 and generally better turning ability.

[D4n]

Frostie, there are also 4 different version of the R-77 doppler radar fyi... (found pictures on internet)

Edited December 17, 2015 by DanielNL

[D4n]

But MiG-29S radar goes up to 120 km in setting (in DCS at least) and STILL I can't detect F-15C at correct set altitude? (even with correct PRF setting, so "high" when he's coming at me, "medium" when he's flying away, the radar still won't detect F-15C until about 60 or 80 km or even only 40 km or so in DCS, right? That's what happens most of the time to me at least... Very weird)

[GGTharos]

Not what I've 'been told. Certainly no radar can be literally immune to chaff: It's there, it has an RCS, the radar will see it regardless of what antenna arrangement you're using.

 

The 120B already had significant ECCM, all thanks to its re-programmable capability. If you can't eliminate 'seeing' chaff, find a way to get rid of its effects - there's plenty of ways to help the missile out:

 

The data-link from the carrier aircraft

The MPRF homing mode (aka pitbull), as MPRF helps reject clutter

Flight path shaping to either keep chaff out of sight OR to help separate it from the target

Track building to avoid confusion due to centroid changes or motion + CM ... and so on and so forth.

 

And then someone decides they'll use jaff, and maybe, just maybe you're back to square one.

 

But no one has jaff in this game anyway, so that's a non-issue :)

 

Immune to chaff, probably not immune but more on a level with pulse doppler radars. Monopulse radars as used on active missiles are susceptible to chaff, I should imagine the C went someway to alleviate this that is all.

[red_coreSix]

It's not weird. The MiG-29s radar just isn't as good as the on the F-15.

[GGTharos]

You have a small radar dish so your detection range will be less than the same radar with a bigger dish (ie. Su-27). That's without going into comparing different radar sets which may differ in antenna configuration, self-noise and all kinds of other fun things.

 

But MiG-29S radar goes up to 120 km in setting (in DCS at least) and STILL I can't detect F-15C at correct set altitude? (even with correct PRF setting, so "high" when he's coming at me, "medium" when he's flying away, the radar still won't detect F-15C until about 60 or 80 km or even only 40 km or so in DCS, right? That's what happens most of the time to me at least... Very weird)

[D4n]

But doesn't mean that F-15C has stealth capabilities in DCS when 120 km distance from MiG-29S, Six...

[D4n]

But both jets have physically moving radars (dishes) right?

 

And what is "jaff" ? U mean chaff, huh?

[GGTharos]

No it doesn't mean the F-15C has stealth capabilities. It means your radar is just not capable of detecting it that far out.

 

Stealth involves the RCS of the aircraft, which does not change with distance.

 

Jaff is chaff used in conjuction with a jammer that is programmed to make good use of that chaff by bouncing a signal off of it.

[Sweep]

F-15C doesn't have any sort of 'stealth' in-game or IRL.

 

In-game the fighter RCS values are the same.

 

7m2 IIRC.

 

Edit; Sniped by the Ghost.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Sweep
got sniped by GG...

[GGTharos]

Actually 5m^2, in case you'd like to use it in calculations.

[Sweep]

You sure? I swear I read something in the config that said 7m...

 

IDK, I still see things and kill them. :D

[GGTharos]

Unless my memory is completely failing me, that's the value in the game.