Documentation to be included

[cauldron]

Will Flight Manuals, and more specifically flight envelope charts and graphs be included in the release?

 

While waiting for DCS release a friend told me that Falcon BMS has flyable M2000's so i tried it and yes, it has its own flight model apparently and they have some flight envelope charts which are helpful for understanding your aircraft. IMO all sim releases should have documentation in regard to the planes flight envelope and characteristics. Would any air force let you fly a plane without being trained in it? no... so. Please could you give us a heads up on plane and weapon documentation that will be included in the release?

 

If a dev could answer would be appreciated, or someone in the know....thank you.

[Redglyph]

As mentioned here by the developers, it's not entirely finished and they're still working on it :)

 

In the mean time you can grab this one (in French, there's no leaked flight manual in English AFAIK).

[jojo]

Guys, how do you want to make full documentation on work in progress ?

 

Because this is what Beta release is : WIP

 

So they would have to permanently correct the documentation as long as they are working...waist of time.

 

You will probably have a starting guide.

 

My 2 cents

[Redglyph]

Well, as I said, they did mention several times they were finishing up the release, which includes the manual. We'll see whether that means the full flight manual or a startup guide, but I don't think this being beta means the manual should change, however that could certainly mean it's not their top priority.

[cauldron]

Please could you give us a heads up on plane and weapon documentation that will be included in the release?

 

Apparently no one reads anymore, just skimming... so... i'm not asking for complete documentation upfront or at beta, what i am asking is what items or docs will be included...when the module gets released.

 

 

thank you for the french pilot handbook, interesting read.

[Redglyph]

Sorry, must come from seeing the same questions on the release too many times ;) Besides, your question was formulated in a weirdly demanding way, which let me to believe you wanted to read something before the release to already learn about the M2000 (Would any air force let you fly a plane without being trained in it? no... so. Please could you give us a heads up on plane and weapon documentation that will be included in the release?).

 

The link still answers to the first question though.

[cauldron]

Sorry, must come from seeing the same questions on the release too many times ;) Besides, your question was formulated in a weirdly demanding way, which let me to believe you wanted to read something before the release to already learn about the M2000 (Would any air force let you fly a plane without being trained in it? no... so. Please could you give us a heads up on plane and weapon documentation that will be included in the release?).

 

The link still answers to the first question though.

 

That you take it my OP as wierdly demanding is... wierd, but still whatever. Demanding it is not - a question it is, questions usually imply an answer that's to be expected, no harm there - that's it. The context that learning to fly a plane already made/designed necessitates the passing on of the flight and weapon characteristics, not just a checklist or instrument panel label etc, which are needed - but so are the charts. My question is in regard to just how in depth will it go, a bit or a lot.

 

The Link however does NOT answer the question. "the manual" is not an answer to what documentation may come to be published for the module... Flight Envelopes, charts & graphs, missile and bomb envelopes etc could hardly be answered with a short comment that "the manual" is being worked on, the link points to where the devs were answering an entirely different line of question.

 

My question assumes a "manual" would be worked on, the question is what might we be getting by official release of the module. M2000 threads are packed full of detailed debate and conversation over many details of the sim - radar autopilot - missiles - bombs - ecm - etc why not a single discussion over documentation. I guess no one is interested in reading about the plane they want to fly.

 

I'll give you an example. In Falcon BMS in their published charts it shows that for certain non-heavy loads the M2000 can supercruise. Its a pocket where under certain weights and altitudes it can sustain supecruise, it can't get there without AB but once there it works, try it in game and it works. That could never be found if that doc was never published. Does it help in game? you bet it does! Also the M2000 has some performance penalties across the trans sonic regime, so you should either stay below .9 or above 1.1, does it make a difference maneuvering in game? you bet it does! get the idea?

 

This is what i want to talk about, and i am curious as to whether the DCS M2000C have docs so we can read and LEARN about the good and bad aspects of the plane system. How good is roll rate? at all altitudes and speeds or AoA's? or just some.?? Can the M2000C struggle in sustained turn vs transitory turn rate? what about fuel burn rates at speeds and altitudes? all these things come from the Flight model built for the plane... so back again to the OP... the threads are full of discussion on M2000C vs this plane or that... reading about the FM helps to understand how to fly the plane. All successful aces always have said the same thing, know your plane, know its limits, learn to fly to them adn at them, and know your adversary's limits as well. its what we do when we go into matches with these planes, why gimp yourself before hand? it like seeing a flight student walking to the flight line having not studied a dam, about that days flight, but he got his TopGun shades on and has the strut down pat... to bad it getting dark... get the point?

 

So please lets talk shop... lets talk flight envelopes, lets talk and learn... not skim jump to conclusions or act brazen when its not needed. Remember that "We are all the same, we just land at different airfields" ;) So please, lets not ignore the capabilities nor the falabilities of the M2000C, so we can fly them like true aces, and not a band dummies.

[cauldron]

Copy of PDF from docs falconbms mod

 

Here is the example that i refer to... please look at and comment. Cheers.

FMs Falcon4 M2k v5.1.pdf

[jojo]

Just in case you don't know...

 

Topolo have been refining his flight model for more than 10 years...

 

Of course he have been doing other flight models in the time frame.

 

But that manual was NOT available BEFORE the flight model was ready.

 

And I know because I gave a hand to test, debug, check weapon loads...

 

This is BETA release. Don't expect FULL documentation.

 

So please, do like the rest of us and just wait...

 

Thank you.

Edited December 17, 2015 by jojo

[cauldron]

Just in case you don't know...

 

Topolo have been refining his flight model for more than 10 years...

 

Of course he have been doing other flight model in the time frame.

 

But that manual was available BEFORE the flight model was ready.

 

And I know because I gave a hand to test and debug.

 

Ok... I don't know you, nor the context of each of your statements, the Doc is by J.M. LANGERON, who would "Topolo" be a reference to? Which flight model do you refer to? DCS M2000 or BMS, are you a tester and debugger for DCS M2000 or BMS or what? and what is your point?

 

I'll try to follow you but throw me a bone please ;)

 

Edit:

Honestly can we try to talk about the plane and its systems and characteristics.

 

JoJo, Be it as it may be you may be involved with sims past or present, in no way does that allow you to actively troll this thread as if i am bitching or complaining about getting ANYTHING ahead of the time to when its ready. I have posted clearly in several posts here that is not the case. Take the time to read the posts to see your misunderstanding. I am asking you to refrain from any additional "cock waving" and to be constructive. There is no need to make such comments as to BETA this alpha that or early release parts of the module - Also inane comments like "wait like the rest of us"... comments which are out of place, and out of order in this thread so far. If you have been involved with any of these FM's than you should be actively discussing aspects of the aircraft.

 

Do not PM again berating me for bitching or whining or complaining that i don't have this to look at, as it is CLEARLY written as not my intention. Maybe English is not your first language, and i for being multi language speaker can understand how you may have come to err. But please stop trolling this thread as it is a genuine effort to discuss possible docs to be added to the module and or a discussion to talk about the plane itself.

Edited December 17, 2015 by cauldron
Response to post & PM

[jojo]

Topolo is J.M. nickname. He makes FM for Falcon 4. Mirage 2000 is his first one.

 

It started when Mirage 2000 was made available in Free Falcon.

 

I did a Mirage 2000 C 2D cockpit (with .gif art at the time) and then a Mirage 2000-5F.

 

Topolo did the custom Mirage 2000 FM. That and many more since...go check the plane.dat file in Falcon 4 BMS folders, you'll see his name in header.

And I tested his FMs for a while (Mirage 2000, Mirage F1, Mirage III) not anymore

 

So far he's not directly involved in Razbam team. So don't go after him for any DCS Mirage issue.

Edited December 17, 2015 by jojo

[jojo]

Tips: Look for Zeus67, CaptSmiley or Prowler posts...

[cauldron]

JoJo,

 

Please do not assume the worst, nor assume things that have not occurred. I have been careful to make the distinction between game, BMS DCS and iRL.

 

I invite you to discuss your passion about this plane, talk about its FM IRL if you want, or whatever. Just be constructive to the debate/dialog.

 

thank you.

[Nealius]

Is there a way to get that French manual for free? The website linked only allows paying members to download.

[Elefant1301]

Try there :

 

http://air.felisnox.com/view.php?name=m2000c.xxxpdf

 

(Remove the xxx)

Edited December 18, 2015 by Elefant1301

[Redglyph]

Is there a way to get that French manual for free? The website linked only allows paying members to download.

 

You're right, sorry for that. I'm not really sure it's legal on their part to sell this document...

Anyway, thanks Elefant1301 for the correct link!

[OnlyforDCS]

Will Flight Manuals, and more specifically flight envelope charts and graphs be included in the release?

 

 

Cauldron, do you own any other DCS modules? Check the /docs folder in your modules directories. This is the kind of documentation that we usually get with our modules, and I expect that DCS M2000C will follow the same form.

[NeilWillis]

IMO all sim releases should have documentation in regard to the planes flight envelope and characteristics. Would any air force let you fly a plane without being trained in it? no... so. Please could you give us a heads up on plane and weapon documentation that will be included in the release?

 

This I think is the bit where you come across as demanding, and I can see why you were jumped on for it. I am a native English speaker too.

 

The thing is, the release will be a Beta, and so even if no real world pilot would be unleashed on a new airframe without intensive conversion training, it can hardly be held up as a reason to expect any information whatsoever with a simulation, no matter how valid a point it may be.

 

Emotions are impossible to convey in an internet posting, so wording that seems very innocent can be terribly badly interpreted, and that is exactly what happened here.

 

If you want information, it is usual to simply ask the question, and not add any caveat regarding the reason why you ought to get an answer. People here are always keen to help out a fellow simmer.

 

The simple truth is, that no one can say what documentation will be released, nor can they say at what point we'll see it, and unfortunately, particularly this close to release, emotions run high for whatever reason.

 

I have always found that the best source of information regarding new airframes is the good old internet, and quite often, you'll see links on this forum long before you'll see a comprehensive manual and any other snippets of information packaged with a new module.

 

I've not delved into the pilots manual for the M2000C yet, and I expect that will be the only reliable source for info for a while. It is a pity, but as always, the development of a product here tends to take years and not days, and that process is usually compressed, and we see an incomplete module released in beta form in order to get it out to the clamouring hordes as early as possible, and that inevitably means no manual in the short term, hence the reliance on the internet.

 

Basically, you have a simple choice, buy now and accept the shortcomings as they go with the territory here, or wait until it is complete and then get the full "operational conversion" experience.

 

The other thing you always need to do, and this forum is no worse than any other, is to grow a thick skin, and accept that you'll be getting AAA from sources outside the simulation too. Trust me when I say, it is easier to just ignore the snipes, or if they warrant it, refer them to a moderator.

 

We all sit in our ivory towers, thinking we're demigods of the internet, meting out justice, and fighting for the weak, mainly because the person we are hurling insults at can't hurt us. Welcome to the new age ethics of cyberspace!

 

Also, add the odd emoticon, it helps set the mood :thumbup:

 

I'm sure when you both sit back, and take a breath, you'll both wonder why you decided to bite.

 

And this post was written in a relaxed, non-confrontational mood - in case you are both wondering :music_whistling:

Edited December 18, 2015 by NeilWillis

[cauldron]

When the Beta release is out, depending on initial docs, i'll try to document and post here flight envelope data as best as i can test fly it.

 

My eyesight is not as it used to be, ie. can't fly anymore but i can on the pc :), but i'll try to get as good test data as i can. Anyone would be welcome to join.

[Paradox]

When the Beta release is out, depending on initial docs, i'll try to document and post here flight envelope data as best as i can test fly it.

 

My eyesight is not as it used to be, ie. can't fly anymore but i can on the pc :), but i'll try to get as good test data as i can. Anyone would be welcome to join.

 

This would be a fantastic resource and I applaud your dedication.

[NeilWillis]

Nice one Cauldron, thanks for that.

[Vivoune]

I'm tempted to start translating that pilot manual into English for those who aren't that fluent in French but that might also be a huge waste of time should an English manual or similar documents be already present at beta release.

 

Not to mention the real life manual might not be perfectly accurate in regards to the DCS simulated a/c.

[Zeus67]

I'm tempted to start translating that pilot manual into English for those who aren't that fluent in French but that might also be a huge waste of time should an English manual or similar documents be already present at beta release.

 

Not to mention the real life manual might not be perfectly accurate in regards to the DCS simulated a/c.

 

No, it is not. We will deliver a draft manual with the beta. Info will be subject to change and all that stuff. But you will have one.

[Vivoune]

No, it is not. We will deliver a draft manual with the beta. Info will be subject to change and all that stuff. But you will have one.

 

Thanks for the heads-up. :)

[Nealius]

Awesome Elefant, thanks!