Tactics against low flying Su27s

[pr1malr8ge]

OK, I need to put my input on this. Mach vs mach from fl20 and SL the SL plane will be moving faster. Groundspeed is king when talking about launching.

 

If an aircraft is doing M1.2 near sealevel and an aircraft going the same Mach at 20,000ft the GS of the lower plane will be higher as will its IAS.[unless we add in winds]

 

So what i'm getting at is flying at 20k against a target on the deck is not that much advantageous in launching perameters only in fuel consumption. It's not until you're in the fl30+ with a much higher M and GS. that the lawn mower looses out in missile launch perameters.

[originally had Energy but that's wrong.]

 

BTW M1 at SL is 661kts

m1 at 20k is 614kts

Edited December 24, 2015 by pr1malr8ge

[Stuge]

It might be very hard to wrap your head around the concept that speed gain is smaller when when you already have some initial speed but that's how it works.

 

This is exactly what I didn't take into account. Adding kinetic energy to a moving object results in a different speed change depending on the object's initial velocity. I'm not sure it has anything to do with gravity, though. It should work the same in a zero-G environment, when the accelerating force is something else than gravity.

 

When I said it makes more sense I mean that your calculated value corresponds much better to what we see in the sim.

[Sweep]

You crazy people and your technical discussions...

 

Very interesting.

[GGTharos]

Difference in peak speed due to air density should be significant.

 

OK, I need to put my input on this. Mach vs mach from fl20 and SL the SL plane will be moving faster. Groundspeed is king when talking about launching.

[ShuRugal]

OK, I need to put my input on this. Mach vs mach from fl20 and SL the SL plane will be moving faster. Groundspeed is king when talking about launching.

 

If an aircraft is doing M1.2 near sealevel and an aircraft going the same Mach at 20,000ft the GS of the lower plane will be higher as will its IAS.[unless we add in winds]

 

So what i'm getting at is flying at 20k against a target on the deck is not that much advantageous in launching perameters only in fuel consumption. It's not until you're in the fl30+ with a much higher M and GS. that the lawn mower looses out in missile launch perameters.

[originally had Energy but that's wrong.]

 

BTW M1 at SL is 661kts

m1 at 20k is 614kts

 

This is true, but at sea level you will be hard pressed to get a fully loaded eagle or flanker to mach 1.2 (though it is doable) whereas at 9km msl, you can easily accelerate to mach 2. My personal favourite way to begin an engagement is at mach 2+ from 14km altitude. This gives my ERs incredible range and allows me to maintain a strongly aggressive posture all the way down to the merge, if i don't mind spending ERs.

[OnlyforDCS]

Given the situation, you have the longer reach to start with, don't you?

 

This is what keeps bumming me out. I don't seem to have the longer reach. According to the battle logs, the flankers are firing 15 seconds before I am. 15s is a looong time. I don't know.... I guess I'm doing it wrong, and I admit I'm probably not doing enough post launch, but the reach that the flankers have over me despite the altitude differences is pretty big. Their missiles keep reaching me, despite me snaking to throw off their energy (although I realize Im probably just better off going to gimbal limits), and despite the altitude differences. I'm going to do some training with the Su27 again, and with the Mirage tomorrow, kind of burned out on the F15C and the Aim120Cs quirks in the game. Ill come back to this damn mission later on in the weekend, thanks for all the help a lot of it has been very helpful.

[pr1malr8ge]

Difference in peak speed due to air density should be significant.

 

it does, but don't see many people going m1.6 at 20,000ft.

 

I have seen people at SL going m1.2 maxed out.

 

Most people in the 20,000 ft are not in burners. They are traveling at transonic speeds. While those at SL are also due to fuel consumption reasons. How ever available thrust is much higher then that of someone at 20,000ft transonic. Ground speed is negligible in these engagements.

 

anyways Looked at an tacview

 

Iascatg is flying at 22,932ft agl Mach .97 with a gs of 580kts

while hatchitman is flying 3748ft agl Mach.87 with a GS of 558kts

that's a 22kts difference which is Negligible

 

Santi is flying 554ft agl Mach 1.05 with a GS of 688kts

Skyrayfox at 24kft agl Mach 1.27 with a GS of 747kts

59kts difference, again negligible

Vs

me at 44,000ft agl mach 2.13 with a GS of 1217kts

thats 529kts faster then Santi.

 

This is what I'm trying to get at. 20kft is negligable as far as missile launch peramters are concerned.

[pr1malr8ge]

This is true, but at sea level you will be hard pressed to get a fully loaded eagle or flanker to mach 1.2 (though it is doable) whereas at 9km msl, you can easily accelerate to mach 2. My personal favourite way to begin an engagement is at mach 2+ from 14km altitude. This gives my ERs incredible range and allows me to maintain a strongly aggressive posture all the way down to the merge, if i don't mind spending ERs.

 

I have no issues with a fully loaded f15 getting up to m1.1-2 on the deck.

 

how ever my discussion was ~20k ft how ever 30+[9km] is where you can really get the eagle moving..

[TAW_Blaze]

This is what I'm trying to get at. 20kft is negligable as far as missile launch peramters are concerned.

 

They aren't. You made the mistake of reducing the problem to a one parameter equation, which it isn't. Making his missiles climb for you is a huge kinematic advantage.

 

This is what keeps bumming me out. I don't seem to have the longer reach. According to the battle logs, the flankers are firing 15 seconds before I am. 15s is a looong time. I don't know.... I guess I'm doing it wrong, and I admit I'm probably not doing enough post launch, but the reach that the flankers have over me despite the altitude differences is pretty big. Their missiles keep reaching me, despite me snaking to throw off their energy (although I realize Im probably just better off going to gimbal limits), and despite the altitude differences. I'm going to do some training with the Su27 again, and with the Mirage tomorrow, kind of burned out on the F15C and the Aim120Cs quirks in the game. Ill come back to this damn mission later on in the weekend, thanks for all the help a lot of it has been very helpful.

 

Download tacview for ****s sake :) Until then nobody knows anything.

[TAW_Blaze]

On the flying high and fast thing, it really is great but it has it's limitations.

 

You're using a hell of a lot of resources to get and stay there. Against organized opponents it'll be equally or more difficult to get a kill from this position, because they'll be a lot more careful with you. If they don't see it in time then it's dangerous, so it's kind of worth a shot. This is why you usually see people doing this at the start of some events. But if you want to keep your offensive position you'll be presenting a very good target to anything that wants to throw things at you. Because of the speed and the steep lookdown angle it'll be extremely difficult to maintain SA. If they spot you they'll probably just dodge the fight until you either get too far and get shot or you have to turn. Once you turned it's not uncommon to have to burn away even if you have support, so you're practically out of there.

 

Simply put flying at medium altitude gives you comparable fuel economy and a hell of a lot more options. Being in space is a killer but if the guy sees you far enough you ain't killin. :)

[pr1malr8ge]

This is what keeps bumming me out. I don't seem to have the longer reach. According to the battle logs, the flankers are firing 15 seconds before I am. 15s is a looong time. I don't know.... I guess I'm doing it wrong, and I admit I'm probably not doing enough post launch, but the reach that the flankers have over me despite the altitude differences is pretty big. Their missiles keep reaching me, despite me snaking to throw off their energy (although I realize Im probably just better off going to gimbal limits), and despite the altitude differences. I'm going to do some training with the Su27 again, and with the Mirage tomorrow, kind of burned out on the F15C and the Aim120Cs quirks in the game. Ill come back to this damn mission later on in the weekend, thanks for all the help a lot of it has been very helpful.

 

 

I just watched your tacview, your ground speeds were IDENTICAL. he also launched an ET at 14nm against a NON manuvering target.

 

You were not "snaking" you were doing that hotline bling music video impression. basicly it looked like you were rocking your wings and that was it.

 

You waited way to long to fire. you didn't use countermeasures.

 

your first issue is that you were targeting the su25s which well are not a priority threat. The 27s are. Second because your speed vs theirs was about equal they got launch authorization before you[with the ET]

third again no counter measures were taken [and the ET was in plain view with its huge smoke trail]. 4th you did not maneuver.

 

So here is my tacview of your mission once I took control

 

due to desync issues the replay wont work.

 

basicly, I went to 25,000ft mach 1.5 launched at ~14nm [2nm after the lead su27 launched his ET which I saw the smoke] I locked up & launched at all 4 targets because I could not get the 27 singled out.

in MP I would not have been so brazen but I was not "hard" locked so I knew only an ET was on its way. It took only a slight jaunt with some flare. I knew my 4 missiles would end up causing all of them [which they didn't] to go defensive. at that point I would search for the 27s. if you look at the Tacview you will see that I dropped lock and then picked up again, this was me searching for the 27s, I had seen the first one get hit, which I did know was the 27, when I launched my 5th aim120 that was at the 2nd 27 which at that point had been hit also. Btw I watched all 4 missiles hit all 4 targets and my jaw hit the floor when that su25 just keep flying.

 

 

ops.zip is the Op's tacview of his flight

tacview.xxx.zip is mine

Tacview-20151224-032155-DCS.txt.zip

ops.txt.zip

Edited December 24, 2015 by pr1malr8ge

[pr1malr8ge]

They aren't. You made the mistake of reducing the problem to a one parameter equation, which it isn't. Making his missiles climb for you is a huge kinematic advantage.

 

 

 

Download tacview for ****s sake :) Until then nobody knows anything.

 

Not exactly, thats only 3nm further and it's not exactly a 90* pitch up either when against the shuttle.

[TAW_Blaze]

Not exactly, thats only 3nm further and it's not exactly a 90* pitch up either when against the shuttle.

 

In the age of 6 mile slammer you'd better take your chances to have your missile fly 1 or 2 or 3 miles further, no? :)

[pr1malr8ge]

In the age of 6 mile slammer you'd better take your chances to have your missile fly 1 or 2 or 3 miles further' date=' no? :)[/quote']

 

 

watch the tacview I posted ops.zip this is the ops tacview. Select the ET missile and go to hud view and look at its flight path and speed.

[Stuge]

Don't forget the easy way to deny ET launch authorization from long ranges: don't use afterburner! This way, ETs can only be launched within 10km head-on.

[pr1malr8ge]

Don't forget the easy way to deny ET launch authorization from long ranges: don't use afterburner! This way, ETs can only be launched within 10km head-on.

 

 

yes agreed but against AI I prefer to have them launch an ET. easier to counter requires less maneuvering to counter. Also seems easier to see also.

[TAW_Blaze]

watch the tacview I posted ops.zip this is the ops tacview. Select the ET missile and go to hud view and look at its flight path and speed.

 

15 nm shot against a target flying straight into it and not maneuvering. There's nothing to see here. ET's below M2 before it's inside 5 miles of the target. Had he done anything at all, it would've missed. Like, literally anything.

[Ironhand]

This is what keeps bumming me out. I don't seem to have the longer reach. ...

You do have the longer reach. I'm going take you back to the track you posted (where you target the Su-25). I had a few minutes to watch your track this morning. Even given how you flew the mission (altitude, speed, etc) you had more range than you thought. You had the Su-25s targeted. They were nose off and, so, that alone was going to delay your ability to launch.

 

I have to say that, as I watched the scope, the hair on the back of my neck stood up. I'm watching the Su-25s bearing to the right and two tracks breaking out and making a beeline for you. That alone should have given you pause. In fact, that is where I paused. There were two aircraft completely broken out of the package and heading your way.

 

That's the point at which I took over and targeted. I had an immediate launch authorization and they were already a decent interval inside of launch range. I launched and maneuvered to angle off, and popped countermeasures. Their ET missed by a mile. One of my AIM-120s hit. The other missed and, at that point I headed back toward my wingman asking for cover.

 

And quit. Because it was past time to get ready for work. My point is that, even in that track, had you been targeting the Flankers, you had first missile launch.

[OnlyforDCS]

Yeah noted, and noted. Will definitively follow the very good advice presented in this thread, thanks to those pointing out my very noobish mistakes. Thanks to all.

Edited December 24, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[TAW_Blaze]

I was going to PM the OP to give a few comments on his tacview but I figured the public could benefit from it too so I might aswell just put it here.

 

Basically before any engagement you need to observe the environment and figure out what kind of threats you're facing, how displaced they are, etc. It's not enough that you found some bar on your VSD and noted there's something there. Thumb rule of radar use is that if you find something you extract every piece of information into your head as soon as possible. Information that's available now might not be there in the next second. For every bandit popping up on your VSD you should look at his altitude, speed, angle off, NCTR ID (inside 25 nm this is gonna tell you what type of AC it is), and usually his general behaviour over time. And honestly don't STT him please..

 

Once you have all this information you can prioritize things. You need to decide which guy you're going to engage first and how you want to position yourself in the environment to best accomplish your goals. Usually you want to stay close to your friendly units while creating as much displacement between incoming enemies to maximize the time between your fights.

 

Albeit you already observed the environment, it's highly dynamic and you need to keep looking for new threats as much as you can regardless of what's happening. Never go full tunnelvision on someone way outside the actual engagement range unless you know for fact there won't be anything else coming up. This gets increasingly difficult as the ranges close down.

 

Another rule of thumb is that you never fly straight at any threat unless you're shooting at it. You want to take an offset in some direction so that you reduce your closure. This will make any incoming missile fly a much longer path reducing it's endgame and giving you more time to react.

 

After you launched you usually either crank again or just start running away, the latter is far more common as it takes a lot of experience to know if someone's missiles won't be able to reach you from a given situation. If you're running you probably want to recommit at some point but this is tricky as the SA you have will be heavily degraded. This is where your first setup's impact and good memory becomes important. If your perception of the results is that someone could be chasing you (because your setup didn't go the way you expected it to, etc) then you probably shouldn't try to turn back.

 

Oh and don't ****ing target strikers over fighters unless you have those covered already. Mission objective might be to defend a ground unit but you can't do that if you're dead..

[LFCChameleon_Silk]

how slow are you going? thats the only thing I can think of that would negatively effect your DLZ, if your moving forward slowly and they are cruising they are going to get a launch first.

 

would have to look at the tracks.