S530 Range

[sedenion]

Missile shot 50km from incoming target, and the missile strike the target at 35km from launch point.

The missing data is missile's flight time...

 

Ok, can we compare this data with the AIM-7M in any maner assuming S-530D and AIM-7M have nearly same properties ? For example, can we tell that the AIM-7M have an interception range of 40km, or 30km ?

 

I see in the french wikipedia about Aim-120 that the "interception range" for the AIM-120 is 20km (however, here, they explicitly speak about the NEZ):

 

La zone d'interception assurée (No Escape Zone, en abrégé : NEZ) de la dernière version AIM-120C est estimée 20 km

[RuskyV]

thread has descended chaos

[cauldron]

We need to keep this thread alive, much important data has been gathered at much effort by the community in an effort to simulate the Mirages Missiles as best as possible. It is time for the community, our community to keep this thread going "without Chaos"

[sedenion]

Some synthhesis:

 

Current S-530D in-game performance:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2622766&postcount=254

 

Comparing Aim-7M:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621644&postcount=215

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621925&postcount=235

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621664&postcount=217

 

We noticed something strange:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621778&postcount=220

(an S-530D with a bigger cross sectional area than the AIM-54 ?)

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621961&postcount=239

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2621995&postcount=242

 

What we know about the S-530D (except common available data):

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2624275&postcount=259

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2624424&postcount=266

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2626799&postcount=298

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2629813&postcount=326

 

Sumary:

Despite the current good performances in game comparing the AIM-7M, it seem that the S-530D is slightly downgraded.

 

- The in-game S-530D have an ununderstandable drag coeficient, bigger than the AIM-54's one, higher than any other missil in its category.

 

- If we except main "googlisable" sources that copie each others, the S-530D seem to have a max range of 50-60km.

 

- The "interception range" of the S-530D is 35km...

 

- The maximum speed of the S-530D is in fact Mach 5, which let hear that it have more thrust / less drag than the AIM-7M (which is limited to Mach 4).

 

- One good source seem to say that the S-530D is in fact slightly better than the AIM-7M (at least, the seeker).

 

- We know the S-530D's seeker is limited to 50 km, maybe it's why the claimed maximum range is "50 km", but the propellant/aerodynamical profil seems to give to the S-530D a better aero range in fact (60km ?).

 

- The ranges usullay given for the S-530D seem to be more "possible interception range" than "max aero range".

 

- In conclusion about S-530D vs AIM-7M: The S-530D should have at least comparable performances, and maybe slightly better.

 

- Current TNT load of the S-530D in game is 28kg, however, the claimed TNT load of the S-530D is in fact 32kg

 

- Note: AIM-7M TNT load is 40kg, R-27 is 39 kg, S-530D is 32kg: less TNT + bigger/heavyer missile = more propellant ?

 

- Detail: It should be labeled "S-530D" or "Super 530D"

Edited January 7, 2016 by sedenion

[jojo]

About warhead:

The load is usually explosive + pre-fragmented high density metal to generate shrapnel. So it's not really 32 kg of explosive...

 

I know the source talking about 50km range.

 

I think it's meant to emphasize on seeker good sensitivity.

But it would need further explanation, since being SARH seeker range would depend on target's RCS too.

[sedenion]

About warhead:

The load is usually explosive + pre-fragmented high density metal to generate shrapnel. So it's not really 32 kg of explosive...

 

hmm... what that means exactly ? The equivalent TNT is more or less than 32 Kg ? What is the difference comparing AIM-7M for example (more, or less effective ?)

 

I know the source talking about 50km range.

I think it's meant to emphasize on seeker good sensitivity.

 

I thinks so too... while american's missiles range is commonly expressed in "max aero range", that gives huge ranges (100, 120, 150km)...

 

But it would need further explanation, since being SARH seeker range would depend on target's RCS too.

 

Obviously, but 50km is a good average i think.

[GGTharos]

It isn't. If you look for example at AIM-7F/M/MH, you'll see something like 'about 30nm' or such. But those reports don't tell you the seeker limitations (eg. 7F limited to 22nm for 2m^2 target), but Raero is 53nm with the particular parameters mentioned previously:

 

Non-maneuvering head-on 40000' M1.4.

 

I thinks so too... while american's missiles range is commonly expressed in "max aero range", that gives huge ranges (100, 120, 150km)...

[jojo]

It means that we need to dig further to understand how DCS warhead are simulated, how proximity fuse are simulated and they interact with each other.

 

Doppler proximity fuse don't explode right away, usually there is a selected delay depending on closing speed.

 

Is it simulated ? I don't know...maybe others do.

 

When you read "warhead : 30kg" this not 30 kg explosive, it's less.

But shrapnel extend radius effectiveness.

 

If warhead effectiveness is determined just by the weight it ok. If not we need to dig.

 

And finally dome late SARH missiles have LOAL seeker...

[sedenion]

The fact, current ED warhead option in DCS is "Simple" "Directional" or "Advanced" but we don't realy know what that mean... we just can guess that "Simple" is the less effective one.

[GGTharos]

All you need is an appropriate collision shape for the fuze. No, it's not simulated.

 

Fuze is very simple: Distance from missile to your virtual pilot's helmet.

[jojo]

All you need is an appropriate collision shape for the fuze. No, it's not simulated.

 

Fuze is very simple: Distance from missile to your virtual pilot's helmet.

 

Well, it explains why when I do post flight analysis I see so many times missiles shaving close without exploding !

 

Good summary about Matra missiles family. Just don't get lost between R530, Super 530F and Super 530D.

 

Range appears to be missile's flight range.

http://pakdef.org/r530-and-super-530/

Edited January 7, 2016 by jojo

[IvanK]

Well, it explains why when I do post flight analysis I see so many times missiles shaving close without exploding !

 

Good summary about Matra missiles family. Just don't get lost between R530, Super 530F and Super 530D.

 

Range appears to be missile's flight range.

http://pakdef.org/r530-and-super-530/

 

 

Alas I wonder if the ED missile coders got confused between the R530 and Super R530D ? ..... totally differrent missiles but what we have at present is performing much like the ancient R530 !

[jojo]

After check, the warhead definition is just about total weight.

Edited January 7, 2016 by jojo

[PiedDroit]

Alas I wonder if the ED missile coders got confused between the R530 and Super R530D ? ..... totally differrent missiles but what we have at present is performing much like the ancient R530 !

Also misleading is the fact that Super 530D is newer than the Super 530F (which they already had coded in DCS), the denominations don't follow an alphabetical order.

I thought the opposite until someone mentioned it on the forum...

[jojo]

Super 530F for Mirage F1

Super 530D for Doppler (shoot down)

 

Easier to remember like that :smilewink:

[Fox One]

 

In this video @4m18s a glimpse at 530 missile launch envelope at low altitude. In the screenshot below I modified a bit brightness&contrast. Target designator square visible in upper HUD, steering dot centered, closure is 800something kts and a useful piece of info - missile estimated flight time of 24s :)

[sedenion]

Interesting, now we know that all carrets moves according target aspect / altitude etc... (see animated gif)

 

The "Max Range" is floating around 8-9nm, the "Best Launch Range" is floating between 6nm and 8nm...

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=132497&stc=1&d=1452345005

Edited January 9, 2016 by sedenion

[sedenion]

if someone has material to compare with AIM-7M, he is welcom... (currently, it seem slightly better than AIM-7C, but i don't know differences between AIM-7C and AIM-7M)

[GGTharos]

Aim 7f/m/p has a lot more rocket fuel. A lot.

[Fox One]

@sedenion great gif!

 

if someone has material to compare with AIM-7M, he is welcom...

 

GGTharos brags at about every 10 posts he writes about some AIM-7 info only he has ... :D

[GGTharos]

Really it's all our there, though perhaps not everyone can access dtic.mil

[sedenion]

Really it's all our there, though perhaps not everyone can access dtic.mil

 

Well did you have a direct link to diagram or table ? Not easy to find data in the dtic site...

 

What i can see for now, the S-530D have better range than Aim-7C and comparable to AIM-120B... but data are all but precsises...

[GGTharos]

No, I'm on a tablet so not so easy to look for stuff.

 

Anyway I don't know why you keep mentioning 7C, is range is inferior to that of the E. If you want to compare, 7f/m is OK, everything before that had half the range or less. And I would expect the 7F to be shorter ranged than the super 530d ... However for practical reasons involving the seeker, they're probably equally ranged. But 530 will probably get there first.

[jaguara5]

By the way, the posted video (together with part 1) provides en excellent presentation of the Mirage 2000EG.

I have already translated the most interesting points here

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2468699#post2468699

[sedenion]

No, I'm on a tablet so not so easy to look for stuff.

 

Anyway I don't know why you keep mentioning 7C

 

simply because this is the only diagram i have, with a strange russian 120B diagram :)

 

is range is inferior to that of the E. If you want to compare, 7f/m is OK, everything before that had half the range or less.

 

I would to compare with 7F/M but i have no data to compare !

 

And I would expect the 7F to be shorter ranged than the super 530d ... However for practical reasons involving the seeker, they're probably equally ranged. But 530 will probably get there first.

 

maybe...