Upgrade possibilities to RAZBAM's Mirage 2000C

[mattebubben]

Please, what is your source for RDM look down/ shoot down range ?

 

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1983/1983%20-%200550.html

 

wiki also has the same data.

[mattebubben]

Give me Litening or Atlis to self lase the LGBs and make me happy.

 

Not sure how much programming effort is required for an RDM or RDM+ but would be nice to have.

 

As for all the other comments, AFAIK, several upgardes have been carried out to the export variants to give them all sorts of A2A and A2G capabilities.

 

Also which Mirage 2000 variant carried the AS30L ?

 

Manish

 

the Export Mirage-2000E with ATLIS II could carry the AS-30L.

 

Personnally, I'd rather have SEAD capacities that were mentioned in other threads. This would really add to the plane's usefullness.

 

The M-2000E could use the ARMAT sead missile and atleast 2 users (egypt and peru) are know to operate the Armat with their M-2000Es

(other users might also use the armat but Peru and egypt are the only ones i know for sure)

 

 

 

 

Mirage 2000 D for AS30L.

Guys, we have been talking about this for months. Right you're given the Mirage 2000 C RDI.

 

That's what it is and many work left.

 

yes we are getting a M2000C RDI but that does not mean they cant make another M2000 variant later.

 

One can always ask / wish.

[statrekmike]

There is no point in asking for equipment that was not actually mounted on the specific version of the Mirage that we have right now. The developers chose this specific model and it LITERALLY just came out in beta, it is not even done yet.

 

Why not let the paint dry on this one before we start asking, begging, or demanding new stuff.

[Hook47]

+ to all this. I love the M2000C, but I would kill for some newer variants to go along with this, and I would TOTALLY KILL for the ability to hold more weapons!!!

 

Come on, Razbam, some believable departures from the real bird, like LNS did with the MiG 21 would be outstanding. IE twin heater pylons, maybe center mounted 530D or two, and for the love of all that is good the ARMAT!!!!!!!!

 

Let's give this bird some real teeth. It it was squaring off with the stuff it fights in DCS in real life you can bet the French or whoever would be doing some field mods.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Hook47

[Corsair]

No, just no.

If you think and are à little pragmatic you'd find out why these field mods would be nonsense.

[jcbak]

I would love an upgrade, it's through, although I think once radar and missiles are fixed to realistic performances, the plane will be very flyable for low-treath environnement. I think it kind of sucks that every one wants basically another plane from razbam instead of the M2K even though the later just came out...

 

As for adding stuff to DCS, if it is the first plane with a realistic/complete radar, it is already a great achievement.

Personnally, I'd rather have SEAD capacities that were mentioned in other threads. This would really add to the plane's usefullness.

SEAD is badly needed in a NATO aircraft. Now that would be a great addition to the DCS sandbox.

[RoflSeal]

SEAD is badly needed in a NATO aircraft. Now that would be a great addition to the DCS sandbox.

 

F/A-18C is coming (potentially) within the next year.

[Ktulu2]

F/A-18C is coming (potentially) within the next year.

 

Î'd rather have the mirage having it too than waiting for the hornet (remember...EDGE was supposed to come out in 2014 christmass ED said in September I think)

[Hook47]

No, just no.

If you think and are à little pragmatic you'd find out why these field mods would be nonsense.

 

Please... I spent 6 years working with armament on an advanced combat aircraft and I am quite sure the real steel M-2000C could have been outfitted in such a way as to carrying additional Magic IIs, just like LNS allowed the MiG 21 to have the Grom even though it never did, but easily could have. Freaking out because it will somehow trigger a slippery slope of unrealism is a fallacy and will hold the aircraft back.

 

Fact- In its current state it struggles to keep up with any of the FC3 aircraft besides the ground attack. This sim is very much about multiplayer, and if gameplay was never regarded as important alongside realism the FC 3 aircraft wouldn't exist. Those like you who are purists or whatever can choose not to use the "nonsense" modifications, but if you fly on adversarial I bet that wouldn't last long :lol:

 

As far as ARMAT goes, there is a portion of the M-2000 owners who would like it, and those who don't aren't required to use it!

 

The A-10 can carry more Heaters than the M2C right now...

[GGTharos]

You can do the non purist mods your self though, rather than suggesting it should be the other way around ;-)

[Hook47]

You can do the non purist mods your self though, rather than suggesting it should be the other way around ;-)

 

Mods have to be updated and break things... ED, BST, LNS all have and will make reasonable and believable departures from time to time for various reasons. I don't want a patched together modded aircraft capability that A. Probably will break B. Won't be allowed online, which is were I would actually want to use it C. Like many mods, cause unforeseen issues and D. Won't be intergrated in a realistic and believable way, like the KH-66 Grom was.

 

Additional magics, even the ARMAT are not even unrealistic, much less unreasonable additions.

 

Although the BEST option would be to get a new variant alongside the C.

 

Every single aircraft has something about it the purists could gripe about, but the purists are by far a minority. This can still be a great realistic sim without holding to every single little detail of how it was, but rather how it could have been too.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Hook47

[statrekmike]

Mods have to be updated and break things... ED, BST, LNS all have and will make reasonable and believable departures from time to time for various reasons. I don't want a patched together modded aircraft capability that A. Probably will break B. Won't be allowed online, which is were I would actually want to use it C. Like many mods, cause unforeseen issues and D. Won't be intergrated in a realistic and believable way, like the KH-66 Grom was.

 

Additional magics, even the ARMAT are not even unrealistic, much less unreasonable additions.

 

Although the BEST option would be to get a new variant alongside the C.

 

Every single aircraft has something about it the purists could gripe about, but the purists are by far a minority. This can still be a great realistic sim without holding to every single little detail of how it was, but rather how it could have been too.

 

The best option is to let RAZBAM finish what we have out already. They have already stated in the manual what ordinance the aircraft will have access to when all is said and done so asking for more is essentially asking them to produce a whole new variant. Such a venture is not a small job and would require months of data gathering and many months more of actual module production.

 

If you want to mod your copy to shoot other weapons, fine, nobody will stop you. Just don't act like you speak for everyone when you make such demands of the developers.

[Hook47]

The best option is to let RAZBAM finish what we have out already. They have already stated in the manual what ordinance the aircraft will have access to when all is said and done so asking for more is essentially asking them to produce a whole new variant. Such a venture is not a small job and would require months of data gathering and many months more of actual module production.

 

If you want to mod your copy to shoot other weapons, fine, nobody will stop you. Just don't act like you speak for everyone when you make such demands of the developers.

 

The title of the thread isn't "Letting RAZBAM finish the M-2000C, it is "Upgrade Possibilities..." pertaining to new variants or additions to what we have.... They aren't mutually exclusive... Razbam can both finish the M-2000C and create future variants, or perhaps some new possibilities for the M-2000C.

 

Creating a variant, btw, especially one close to the M-2000C (NOT the 2000-5) is a smaller venture than a new aircraft.

 

Please quote my post where I acted like I was speaking for everyone? As stated many times and as acknowledged by Zeus, a ARMAT is both wanted by a PORTION of the community and possible by Zeus. Additional Magic IIs is a realistic stray from reality. Saying that I at any time tried to speak for everyone is a straw man. Who is making DEMANDS of a developer? This is discussion and request, you are overstating things.

 

I would love to see both added variants of the M-2000 down the road, and maybe a couple minor additions to the C, such as the Armat and duel Magic pylons. I love the Mirage but 2 magics feel like taking a knife to a gun fight in an otherwise solid 4th gen aircraft. Like I said, in the M-2000C was doing the fighter role in reality like it is in DCS vs other planes, you can darn well bet Armée de l'air or other users would have been slapping a couple more Magic IIs on board. Perhaps it was done and I don't know about it, I haven't looked into it much.

[Corsair]

Please... I spent 6 years working with armament on an advanced combat aircraft and I am quite sure the real steel M-2000C could have been outfitted in such a way as to carrying additional Magic IIs, just like LNS allowed the MiG 21 to have the Grom even though it never did, but easily could have. Freaking out because it will somehow trigger a slippery slope of unrealism is a fallacy and will hold the aircraft back.

 

 

It certainly could, but it wouldn't. The solution of carrrying two additionnal 530D is absolutely non efficient. The aircraft barely has enough fuel to handle à typical interception mission with two fox 1 and two heaters. Two additionnal missile would ruin the aircraft performance and wouldn't be intelligent. Hence, such a mod would be extremely unlikely. Same for MAGICs. It's not à missile truck, wasn't intended to dogfight for ages. No need to carry stuff you don't need.

 

As for the ARMAT, Armée de lAir had the Jag to do the job. Later, it was 2000D's and Rafale rôles Irh with AASM and cruise missile. Useless mod again.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Corsair

[Hook47]

It certainly could, but it wouldn't. The solution of carrrying two additionnal 530D is absolutely non efficient. The aircraft barely has enough fuel to handle à typical interception mission with two fox 1 and two heaters. Two additionnal missile would ruin the aircraft performance and wouldn't be intelligent. Hence, such a mod would be extremely unlikely. Same for MAGICs. It's not à missile truck, wasn't intended to dogfight for ages. No need to carry stuff you don't need.

 

As for the ARMAT, Armée de lAir had the Jag to do the job. Later, it was 2000D's and Rafale rôles Irh with AASM and cruise missile. Useless mod again.

 

Useless only I your mind, but to many who own the module it would be far from useless. The French AF has the luxury of using other aircraft that we do not have in DCS. Should those aircraft have been unavailable the M-2000C may have had a different story. DCS isn't real life, it is a sandbox military simulator.

 

Also do you realize the aerodynamic impact of adding a couple missiles, particularly Magic IIs is minimal. The aircraft has had plenty of fuel for any mission I have done with it so far. It seems to have endurance on par with some of the other fighters in the sim, if not a little less, and since it has so many open pylons unused by missiles loading tanks is no issue.

 

And if you think the ARMAT would be a useless mod in DCS, when we have exactly ONE slow mover SEAD aircraft in the sim, especially considering it has been done in the real world by export owners, I think you would find many here who totally disagree. Speak for yourself. We aren't talking about mods to the actual aircraft, but realistic upgrades inside the sim.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Hook47

[mattebubben]

It certainly could, but it wouldn't. The solution of carrrying two additionnal 530D is absolutely non efficient. The aircraft barely has enough fuel to handle à typical interception mission with two fox 1 and two heaters. Two additionnal missile would ruin the aircraft performance and wouldn't be intelligent. Hence, such a mod would be extremely unlikely. Same for MAGICs. It's not à missile truck, wasn't intended to dogfight for ages. No need to carry stuff you don't need.

 

As for the ARMAT, Armée de lAir had the Jag to do the job. Later, it was 2000D's and Rafale rôles Irh with AASM and cruise missile. Useless mod again.

 

Please note that when are are talking about the Armat most of us are talking to the chance of having an add on mirage 2000E (Export variant of the 2000C) that did use the Armat.

 

We are not talking about giving the French airforce m2000C the armat (although they could have done that but they did not need and as such never carried the armat on the french m2000C.

[GGTharos]

B. Won't be allowed online, which is were I would actually want to use it

 

... Which is where we don't want you to use it

 

D. Won't be intergrated in a realistic and believable way, like the KH-66 Grom was.

 

There's nothing realistic about it. It shouldn't be there, and it acts like a SARH missile to boot.

 

Every single aircraft has something about it the purists could gripe about, but the purists are by far a minority. This can still be a great realistic sim without holding to every single little detail of how it was, but rather how it could have been too.

 

The developers are purists, because that is the mandate of this simulator.

 

 

It's funny how in another thread you were saying how you hope 'imho', probably, AFAIK shouldn't be a reason for the devs doing things, but here you are implying it's OK. :-)

Edited December 31, 2015 by GGTharos

[Farlander]

I fully support the suggestion for a M2000E upgrade/module! :)

[myHelljumper]

Me and my squadron mate sure do not want any center 530D, 4 magic or armat because we are flying realistically the planes we have. The 2000 was made to intercept and, sometimes, drop ordonnance on the ground. It's ok we fly it like it have to be. The module don't have to be done balanced with other modules or to fill a gap in the list.

 

We would be very disappointed if your upgrades were made.

In 5 years, maybe we will have the JAGUAR or the 2000-5 and then it would be irrelevant more than unrealistic to have such upgrades.

 

On the other hand, a 2000E would be a great module but allow the dev to release their first module and chose their next development.

[Hook47]

... Which is where we don't want you to use it

 

 

 

There's nothing realistic about it. It shouldn't be there, and it acts like a SARH missile to boot.

 

 

 

The developers are purists, because that is the mandate of this simulator.

 

 

It's funny how in another thread you were saying how you hope 'imho', probably, AFAIK shouldn't be a reason for the devs doing things, but here you are implying it's OK. :-)

 

Your note speaking for everyone. Nearly every Mirage pilot I've spoke to online would love another couple Magics.

 

Read my post more carefully. I said the addition of the Grom was believable and realistic because it could have been done. I never talked about its flight model in the game... Come to think of it tho, it is a bean riding radar guided missile... So are SARH??? That is beside the point, you seem to have a lot of beef with the MiG 21 for whatever reason.

 

Purism is a mandate of the simulator? Realism and purism are not the same thing and ED themselves have made many many maaaany realistic departures to make the sim work that wouldn't make any sense if purism was the mandate. How could one explain the FC3 series if that is the case?

 

Finally you quoted me incorrectly, again you should read my post more carefully. I said your statement had way too many "AFIAK" "in theory" blah blah and so forth for ED to treat your opinion like hard data. Asking... I say again, ASKING (not demanding) for implementation of twin missile pylons of the ARMAT, but which are not guesstimating but rather very realistic possibilities for this aircraft is totally different then me demanding changes to something just because I don't like how it is. I enjoy the M-2000C for what it is, but I would like additions or new variants that make it more capable in the DCS sandbox. To me, and sadly, the M-2000C feels like a real fighter stuck in a 1950s interceptors body... And unable to unleash its potential thanks to such limited stores. I find myself crying out to Dassault in the middle of dogfights in the 104th "Why in gods name did you only give me 4 missiles!!!" Lol

 

The best option by far would be to get a E model or something like that. I said that from the start. I think was is disappointing in a way is we finally have a 4th gen fighter that otherwise could be so capable but just falls short of the mark. I guess maybe if we are lucky Razbam will decide to give us another variant, an upgrade, or they of another dev will pick a more capable aircraft down the road. The repurposed interceptors, trainers, ground attack birds and the like are all fun in there own right, but hold us back from the confrontation of equally capable weapons systems many want. Well we still have the F-18 in the pipe I reckon.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Hook47

[GGTharos]

Your note speaking for everyone. Nearly every Mirage pilot I've spoke to online would love another couple Magics.

 

Speaking for a lot of people who deal with more organized stuff. Get your mods, fly with them - we do, we arm Mirages with MICA IR/EM in order to make them higher threats in our aggressor scenarios, but we don't ask for the devs to add them in as standard.

 

I said the addition of the Grom was believable and realistic because it could have been done.

 

It wasn't done, so it is neither believable or realistic. On the other hand, NASA is shooting AIM-54's from their F-15 for real, so why don't I have any? :)

 

Purism is a mandate of the simulator? Realism and purism are not the same thing and ED themselves have made many many maaaany realistic departures to make the sim work that wouldn't make any sense if purism was the mandate. How could one explain the FC3 series if that is the case?

 

The FC3 series pre-dates the DCS concept. Having said that, ED never said that they'd get rid of 'lite' concepts as entry level flight sims.

On the other hand, the FC series has moved more towards realism, not away from it.

 

I find myself crying out to Dassault in the middle of dogfights in the 104th "Why in gods name did you only give me 4 missiles!!!" Lol

 

And IMHO that is exactly what the devs should respond to your requests: 'Talk to Dassault'. :)

 

The best option by far would be to get a E model or something like that. I said that from the start. I think was is disappointing in a way is we finally have a 4th gen fighter that otherwise could be so capable but just falls short of the mark.

 

Yep, get the version you want. But despite all this, a western fast mover than can drop even dumb bombs is pretty significant. A-10's are very vulnerable due to their speed, while an M2K can at least attempt interdiction/strike in a more contested area.

[myHelljumper]

I don't see how twin magic per pylon would be doable...

[AussieGhost789]

Your note speaking for everyone. Nearly every Mirage pilot I've spoke to online would love another couple Magics.

 

~Snip

 

I find myself crying out to Dassault in the middle of dogfights in the 104th "Why in gods name did you only give me 4 missiles!!!" Lol

~Snip

 

On the first point, I'm sure they'd like R-77's on the Su-27S as well, but just because they'd like it for gameplay sake doesn't necessarily mean they think it should be implemented. When things like that start happening, it ceases being the plane that is supposed to be being simulated and becomes some sort of hybrid variant. Sure, it would be nice, but it takes away from the realism of the sim.

 

As for the answer to your question to Dassault, I'd say they're response would be something along the lines of, "because it's an interceptor, not an air superiority fighter." You need to keep that in mind when flying the M2kC. It shouldn't be treated like an F-15. It's not designed with the same kind of role in mind. Granted the F-15 could carry out the same role, but the Mirage doesn't fit the role of the F-15 so well. And it shouldn't be expected to.

Edited January 1, 2016 by AussieGhost789

[statrekmike]

You know, even with "only" four missiles, I was still able to splash five enemy aircraft in a single flight (one was a gun kill), maybe I just don't see having four missiles as terribly limiting.

 

Now, if there is compelling proof that the M-2000C could possibly carry a ARMAT in some way or another, I would be happy to see it but when you start adding missiles just for some odd sense of "balance" or just a desire for more ordinance, it stops being a simulation and just becomes wish fulfillment.

 

Perhaps it really comes down to understanding both the mindset of the French air forces (and their specific needs and requirements) as well as the idea that some aircraft are just designed for very specific roles. The M-2000C is clearly a interceptor/fighter that fits into a much larger air power eco-system. Since we don't have the other aircraft that serve alongside it, we perhaps might feel it is a bit limited in isolation.

 

If not having enough missiles is a issue for you, why not just grab a wingmate who you can count on? Why not design missions with a larger variety of allied aircraft that can help fill out the roles that the M-2000C is not suited for?

 

Why must RAZBAM change the aircraft now? What compelling reason do they have to go out of their way to start a whole new set of projects just because you don't have the amount of missiles you want?

[Hook47]

On the first point, I'm sure they'd like R-77's on the Su-27S as well, but just because they'd like it for gameplay sake doesn't necessarily mean they think it should be implemented. When things like that start happening, it ceases being the plane that is supposed to be being simulated and becomes some sort of hybrid variant. Sure, it would be nice, but it takes away from the realism of the sim.

 

As for the answer to your question to Dassault, I'd say they're response would be something along the lines of, "because it's an interceptor, not an air superiority fighter." You need to keep that in mind when flying the M2kC. It shouldn't be treated like an F-15. It's not designed with the same kind of role in mind. Granted the F-15 could carry out the same role, but the Mirage doesn't fit the role of the F-15 so well. And it shouldn't be expected to.

 

I guess I should be asking Razbam why the C version then :music_whistling:

 

To be clear, I would like the E version the most. I would like twin Magic pylons if either such a thing could have or did exist just to make the M2000C more viable.

 

IIRC the R-77 was not largely fielded, yet having it on the MiG 29 is a whole different story than getting it on the 27. The KA-50 was a limited prototype yet we have it in the sim. Saying asking for twin missile pylons will lead to all realism being thrown out the window is pretty extreme.

 

@ Tharos about the Grom.... I think you are failing to understand the difference between realistic and reality. The Grom was not put on MiG 21Bis, but the Grom required a radar that was put on the Bis version and had the exact same capabilities needed to fire the missile (from what I have heard) so it literally would have been as simple as mounting the weapon and wiring it to fire. . . Did it happen in real life? Not to our knowledge. Could it have been done? Easily.

 

Have SU-27s and F-15s fought over the black sea in real life? H$$$ no. Do they in DCS? YES. This is the difference between what is and what could be, and our Sandbox Sim deals with what could be as much as it does what is.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Hook47