Jammer priority

[spiddx]

FYI I edited the first post of this thread and added that quote:

 

Well that's not the only side of the story. Maybe you should also include these posts:

 

It is not anout how the jammer affects other aircraft but how affects your own radar.

 

In short you have to decide what you want jammer protection or radar.

 

Anything about ECM is WAGuess. We only got that tidbit of info in an offhand manners as in "Oh! that switch is because the jammer jams our own radar."

 

What are the effects, how it works, why there are two switches (the same switch is in the throttle, but this seems to be a spring loaded one), we will never know.

 

IMO the current ECM model in DCS is simply not strong and complex enough for such a feature to make sense.

[PiedDroit]

Added.

I know the ECM model i not perfect and I'm interested to know what can be done with it.

I don't care much about MP balance so if we only have a switch that toggles between a lower power setting and a high power setting that will make radar inoperable I'll be fine with it.

If the worry is about balance in MP they can make the higher power setting way more powerful than the FC3's ECM.

[TomCatMucDe]

Added.

I know the ECM model i not perfect and I'm interested to know what can be done with it.

I don't care much about MP balance so if we only have a switch that toggles between a lower power setting and a high power setting that will make radar inoperable I'll be fine with it.

If the worry is about balance in MP they can make the higher power setting way more powerful than the FC3's ECM.

 

In real this mode has the advantage of strongly jamming the enemy, the disadvantage is that you lose your radar. But in DCS you would have only the disadvantage and the enemy wont be jammed. Why and when would you use it?

[spiddx]

The question is if there even is such a thing as different power settings for jammers in DCS. Judging by the comment that it would be a choice to have radar OR jammer (so no radar+weak jammer) makes me think there isn't.

But maybe I'm just reading too much between the lines here.

 

But in DCS you would have only the disadvantage and the enemy wont be jammed. Why and when would you use it?

 

Why wouldn't the enemy be jammed?

Edited January 8, 2016 by spiddx

[TomCatMucDe]

Why wouldn't the enemy be jammed?

 

it would be normally jammed.

 

My understanding is that there are 3 settings:

 

- Jammer Off

- Jammer light: jammer is not so strong and not affecting your own radar. This is the standard one in DCS

- Jammer strong: jammer would be more powerful affecting your own radar, As far as I understood DCS implementation is simple and doesnt allow more powerful jamming.

 

Am I correct?

Edited January 8, 2016 by TomCatMucDe

[3rd Wing - Raiden]

To me a high power jammer in the Mirage means 2 things:

1) enemy radar burn through happens much later when the 2 aircrafts are almost merging (if said aircrafts are facing each other)

2) you get your own radar jammed. This means you will see ghosting on your VTB (HDD) as if another aircraft was jamming in front of you. This makes your radar useless.

 

Do I want this Jammer Priority feature? Yes indeed! This is suppose to be a simulation, not an arcade casual game after all.

 

Why are we even talking about MP balance here? Such thing as no place in a simulation.

 

Is it fair to oppose an aircraft with simplified avionics and systems (F-15C, SU-27 and other FC3 aircrafts) to a fully modelized avionics and systems aircraft? Pilot workload is completely different. People do it anyway on many servers. So poeple don't appear to be bothered by fair and balanced gameplay. If war was fair and equal their would be no war as they would end mutual neutralization.

 

Now that's done, please Razbam, give us the most accurate aircraft possible. MP balance isn't at all to be looked into here. People that don't want to use Jammer Priority will just stick to the [] square mode.

[spiddx]

Hm I asumed the strong jammer is the standard DCS one and the one we currently have in the Mirage, just without the effect on the radar. But maybe I am mistaken...

 

To me a high power jammer in the Mirage means 2 things:

1) enemy radar burn through happens much later when the 2 aircrafts are almost merging (if said aircrafts are facing each other)

2) you get your own radar jammed. This means you will see ghosting on your VTB (HDD) as if another aircraft was jamming in front of you. This makes your radar useless.

 

Do I want this Jammer Priority feature? Yes indeed! This is suppose to be a simulation, not an arcade casual game after all.

 

 

You want total realism but all you write above is complete guesswork as well. We simply have no idea how this stuff works.

Edited January 8, 2016 by spiddx

[TomCatMucDe]

To me a high power jammer in the Mirage means 2 things:

1) enemy radar burn through happens much later when the 2 aircrafts are almost merging (if said aircrafts are facing each other)

2) you get your own radar jammed. This means you will see ghosting on your VTB (HDD) as if another aircraft was jamming in front of you. This makes your radar useless.

 

Do I want this Jammer Priority feature? Yes indeed! This is suppose to be a simulation, not an arcade casual game after all.

 

Why are we even talking about MP balance here? Such thing as no place in a simulation.

 

Is it fair to oppose an aircraft with simplified avionics and systems (F-15C, SU-27 and other FC3 aircrafts) to a fully modelized avionics and systems aircraft? Pilot workload is completely different. People do it anyway on many servers. So poeple don't appear to be bothered by fair and balanced gameplay. If war was fair and equal their would be no war as they would end mutual neutralization.

 

Now that's done, please Razbam, give us the most accurate aircraft possible. MP balance isn't at all to be looked into here. People that don't want to use Jammer Priority will just stick to the [] square mode.

 

I don't care about MP balance, what the aircraft can it can, what it cant, well too bad it just cant. We have to live with the limitation and exploit the advantages.

 

The question is: is the default jammer of DCS is the strong jammer mode of the Mirage or not? Maybe someone familiar with the Mirage can weigh in here.

 

The problem is that DCS doesnt allow a different power output of the jammer. So if the answer is yes, you simply wouldnt have the choice to tone down your jamming. That's not a realistic simulation either.

[3rd Wing - Raiden]

You want total realism but all you write above is complete guesswork as well. We simply have no idea how this stuff works.

 

You are right, I am no expert but French engineers are not wizards and physics is what it is.

 

Active jamming only purpose is to make ennemy radar locking capability useless by saturating the targeting computer with false information.

 

When the aircraft is close enough to its target, its radar burns through the jamming because jamming power emission is weaker than the radar waves echo of the attacking aircraft. When this happens, you still see the jamming but you can lock the target on your targeting screen.

 

IMO High power jamming and Low power jammimg only differ in electromagnetic emission power.

 

Regarding jamming effects on your own radar, yes it's guessing. But what else could it be?

[3rd Wing - Raiden]

The problem is that DCS doesnt allow a different power output of the jammer. So if the answer is yes, you simply wouldnt have the choice to tone down your jamming. That's not a realistic simulation either.

 

Who told you that DCS doesn't allow things? Is it because no aircraft implemented it that it is not possible?

 

The answer to the difference between high and low mode lies in the distance before burnthrough.

 

Only ED can tell how and why they decided and implemented the burnthrough distance.

Either that or you have a radar specialist among your friends.

Edited January 8, 2016 by 3rd Wing - Raiden

[BitMaster]

This is a rat's tail and comes from modeling AC that are still classified with large parts of their systems.

 

Turn it either way, the french office of defense will not send the pdf telling you how it works.

 

 

Back to guesswork with maybe a higher understanding for assumptions and voodoo worx ;)

[3rd Wing - Raiden]

This is a rat's tail and comes from modeling AC that are still classified with large parts of their systems.

 

Turn it either way, the french office of defense will not send the pdf telling you how it works.

 

 

Back to guesswork with maybe a higher understanding for assumptions and voodoo worx ;)

 

The real question is do you want a system to be implemented on guesswork (which can sometimes looks like reverse engineering) or not have this system at all?

[NeilWillis]

It all makes sense now I have seen the other thread. Thanks for that.

 

Well there would clearly be a crossover between ED and Razbam to implement this if it is included, so I guess we will just have to wait and see what solution - if any - is agreed between them.

 

Personally, I'd like to see as much as possible modelled accurately and realistically in terms of radar function and effectiveness across all the modules affected.

 

You can't exactly simulate any modern air combat without in-depth, accurate simulation of radar systems, but of course we will always come up against protected and sensitive areas of information. Where possible, lets have all electronic weaponry and countermeasures properly modelled.

[TomCatMucDe]

Who told you that DCS doesn't allow things? Is it because no aircraft implemented it that it is not possible?

 

The answer to the difference between high and low mode lies in the distance before burnthrough.

 

Only ED can tell how and why they decided and implemented the burnthrough distance.

Either that or you have a radar specialist among your friends.

 

It is common sense. Razbam can program their aircrafts, they cant tell how badly should the Eagle be jammed. This is the job of ED. They provide the jamming feature and 3rd parties use it, or dont.

 

On the other hand, I can hardly imagine that ED will change something in the jammer model in the coming future, especially that we are simply guessing. They have so much stuff on their table already.

[hannibal]

ECM necessary for A-6 intruder...

[3rd Wing - Raiden]

It is common sense. Razbam can program their aircrafts, they cant tell how badly should the Eagle be jammed. This is the job of ED. They provide the jamming feature and 3rd parties use it, or dont.

 

On the other hand, I can hardly imagine that ED will change something in the jammer model in the coming future, especially that we are simply guessing. They have so much stuff on their table already.

 

If jamming is very very simplified in its current implementation you might be right.

 

If ED has put thought into this, they should have make an API with some kind of variables(who said power emission?) that allow third parties to tune the jamming effect.

 

A lot of DCS code is in fact old LOMAC code. It is very probable that the simplified jamming is the one currently implemented. The same goes for IFF ident.

[TomCatMucDe]

If the jammer strength was variable I don't think Razbam will ask if we want the feature or not. They would have implemented it. But again, I'm only guessing

[PiedDroit]

If the jammer strength was variable I don't think Razbam will ask if we want the feature or not. They would have implemented it. But again, I'm only guessing

They didn't ask, this poll is not their doing either ;)

[TomCatMucDe]

They didn't ask, this poll is not their doing either ;)

 

right, they didnt ask, but still, from the post of Zeus I understand that they cant implement a variable jammer strength.

 

As I said, we can enabled that "problem" but some team member say don't because nobody else have that weakness (but they should have it) and it will give them an unfair advantage in MP ).

[3rd Wing - Raiden]

right, they didnt ask, but still, from the post of Zeus I understand that they cant implement a variable jammer strength.

 

What I understand from Zeus saying is that they can do it but they are still debating on MP balance.

Edited January 8, 2016 by 3rd Wing - Raiden

[PiedDroit]

What I understand from Zeus saying I'd that they can do it but they are still debating on MP balance.

That's what I understood too.

[nomdeplume]

It's not necessarily 'strength' of the emission that would be variable, but more the frequency (as in, how often it emits). Probably the 'low power' mode has the jammer pausing long enough between its emissions that the radar is able to distinguish returns from its own emissions vs spam from the jammer. On the 'high power' mode the jammer is continuously transmitting, or at least pausing for such a short time the radar can't reliably distinguish legit returns from those caused by the jammer.

 

The overall effect would be pretty similar to a weaker/stronger signal though, in the sense that over any period of time (1 second, 10 seconds...) the amount of energy radiated would be higher in the jammer priority mode.

[Pikey]

Same. Huge amount of things come in front. GBU's having laser codes, getting the real weapons like the Belouga in, being able to hit a mountain with a bomb.

I vote for Jammer priority over INS alignment. However, I find the Radar vertical elevation and RWR to be higher

[TomCatMucDe]

It's not necessarily 'strength' of the emission that would be variable, but more the frequency (as in, how often it emits). Probably the 'low power' mode has the jammer pausing long enough between its emissions that the radar is able to distinguish returns from its own emissions vs spam from the jammer. On the 'high power' mode the jammer is continuously transmitting, or at least pausing for such a short time the radar can't reliably distinguish legit returns from those caused by the jammer.

 

The overall effect would be pretty similar to a weaker/stronger signal though, in the sense that over any period of time (1 second, 10 seconds...) the amount of energy radiated would be higher in the jammer priority mode.

 

 

But how do you have guarantee that the continuous signal would affect more the other planes than a discontinuous would do? This nuance has to be done by ED or the other planes developer has to support it as a standard.

[TomCatMucDe]

What I understand from Zeus saying I'd that they can do it but they are still debating on MP balance.

 

 

But if there were normal and strong mode he wouldn't ask the question whether it's a disadvantage or not. If you don't want to jam yourself you can put on the weaker mode.