TM Warthog mount- should I be worried?

Shogun0 · January 12, 2016

##New Update: Post 23 on Page 3##

Hey guys-

I got my new TM Warthog in from the great Jet sale last week and built a PVC mount. The joystick is mounted on a 4" cap that fits into a coupling that was mounted on an angular stand.

I posted this on Reddit and someone thought this was a bad idea. The joystick is angled maybe 15-20 degrees or so, thus the center of gravity is not directly on top of the gimbal. I am not heavy handed on the controls at all, but even so, that ear worm was planted inside of my head and now I am wondering if I am slowly going to be destroying my Warthog joystick. It returns to center just fine.... right now.

Any thoughts? Does the Warthog joystick need to be straight up and down or can it be angled back at rest? I know I am being a bit paranoid, but even with the sale I got it on... it isn't cheap lol. Perhaps I should contact TM and see what they say?

Edited January 29, 2016 by Shogun0

dburne · January 12, 2016

Well I don't know what long term affects it might have, but I myself would be a little uneasy with that kind of orientation.

Now to me that setup just begs for a little lower "flat" placement and one of the Warthog extensions.

Shogun0 · January 12, 2016

Thats a good idea. I could shorten the pipes that are holding up the mounting board/socket, and toss in a 45 degree connector to straight it up a bit. Worth a try anyway.

Socket7 · January 12, 2016

What did this redditor say would wear out? There is only one spring that handles all centering. When you move the joystick, a plate is lifted, and the spring is compressed. As the joystick returns to center, the plate lowers and the compression is released. There is no way to wear out the re-centering of one axis instead of the other.

The cup and ball joint shouldn't really care that it's at an angle either.

The worst case scenario, you wear out the centering spring, and have to buy a new one. It's a 20 dollar item, and any mook who can turn a screw driver can replace it without breaking something. (I've also never heard of it happening.)

I've taken my warthog apart, and though I'm no mechanical engineer, I saw nothing that would make me worry about using it on an angle.

If this redditor has empirical evidence of damage caused by using a warthog on an incline, I'd be very interested to see it and know what the problem is, but I have serious problems with the credibility of the source "Some random person on Reddit."

Edited January 12, 2016 by Socket7

jcbak · January 12, 2016

I agree with Socket7. I've had my WH apart many times. I can't imagine how that angle could damage anything. Having said that, I would go with the 45 degree modification that you mentioned. I would also STRONGLY recommend an extension. They are pricey....but I wouldn't fly without it.

Shogun0 · January 12, 2016

Socket7- thank you. It feels comfortable as is, but I am definitely going to shorten it and get an extension based off of the recommendations here. Thanks for putting my mind at ease. :)

Jcbak- Thanks! I was looking at the ones crafted by Sahaj. Do you have a preference on size? I was looking at both the 7.5cm and 10cm but it seems like it would be hard to tell the difference without actually looking at them.

The extension itself- is it simply allowing you greater leverage over the center spring so you can make small adjustments easier aka in-flight refuleing?

jcbak · January 12, 2016

Socket7- thank you. It feels comfortable as is, but I am definitely going to shorten it and get an extension based off of the recommendations here. Thanks for putting my mind at ease. :)

Jcbak- Thanks! I was looking at the ones crafted by Sahaj. Do you have a preference on size? I was looking at both the 7.5cm and 10cm but it seems like it would be hard to tell the difference without actually looking at them.

The extension itself- is it simply allowing you greater leverage over the center spring so you can make small adjustments easier aka in-flight refuleing?

I have the 7.5cm and I'm very happy with it. However, I just ordered the 10cm from Sahaj to compare. So, I may be selling one of them in the near future depending on my trial.

Necroscope · January 12, 2016

The extension itself- is it simply allowing you greater leverage over the center spring so you can make small adjustments easier aka in-flight refuleing?

Is it simply allowing you greater leverage over every aspect of flight. :)

Do you have a preference on size?

Mine is 15cm, but Hog itself bolted under the chair and handle goes through the big hole in chair cushion. Top point of handle of my Hog is in 30cm above chair cushion.

Main point here is your lower arm should be parallel to the ground while you holding handle in neutral position.

I'm also doubting regarding angled placement of Hog, not from wearing but from ergonomic perspective. It's designed to stand upright and twisted to the left for 10-15deg, to allow your right hand to be in most natural position.

dburne · January 12, 2016

I recently got the 7.5cm black extension from Sahaj and have been very pleased.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2635706&postcount=47

Mounting like you are doing, you will probably want to go longer.

Shogun0 · January 12, 2016

Is it simply allowing you greater leverage over every aspect of flight. :)

Mine is 15cm, but Hog itself bolted under the chair and handle goes through the big hole in chair cushion. Top point of handle of my Hog is in 30cm above chair cushion.
Main point here is your lower arm should be parallel to the ground while you holding handle in neutral position.

I'm also doubting regarding angled placement of Hog, not from wearing but from ergonomic perspective. It's designed to stand upright and twisted to the left for 10-15deg, to allow your right hand to be in most natural position.

Thank you, this gives me a good baseline to start with.

When you say it is supposed to be twisted to the left.. is the joystick adjustable to do that from the factor? I just lined up the yellow arrows on the base and the stick and locked it down collar. Is that not correct?

jcbak- let me know which you prefer. :)

dburne- I saw your posts on the IL2 Sahaj thread just now. Any regrets over not getting the 10cm?

dburne · January 12, 2016

Thank you, this gives me a good baseline to start with.

dburne- I saw your posts on the IL2 Sahaj thread just now. Any regrets over not getting the 10cm?

Not really, if I was determined to center mount it in some fashion between my legs, I would definitely have wanted a longer extension. I had thought maybe I could just sit in on the seat between my legs and use it that way, but really in my case 7.5 would be too short for that.

It is working out fairly well for me so far using it like I am.

Also keep in mind the longer the extension = less resistance. Sahaj has videos on his website demonstrating the differences in the lengths in this regard.

dburne · January 12, 2016

Thank you, this gives me a good baseline to start with.
is the joystick adjustable to do that from the factor? I just lined up the yellow arrows on the base and the stick and locked it down collar. Is that not correct?

No you are correct, as it is stock that is not adjustable it locks down into it's preset configuration.

The extension though will allow this to be adjusted to whatever angle you prefer.

I was playing around with that a little, and one thing I noticed - I would change it, then open the game controller calibration screen in windows, and would move the stock through the x and y axis. I noticed at some angles I was not able to move smoothly throughout the axis, or at least as smoothly as I felt I should. Like being able to move through y axis without having much movement in x axis, and so forth.

I probably have mine adjusted now pretty close to how it was at stock as far as orientation.

Necroscope · January 13, 2016

Thank you, this gives me a good baseline to start with.
When you say it is supposed to be twisted to the left.. is the joystick adjustable to do that from the factor? I just lined up the yellow arrows on the base and the stick and locked it down collar. Is that not correct?

As far as I know - you can't twist handle for stock Hog. But with extender this will be plausible (depends on extender construction).

Regarding ergonomic: sit in your char relaxed, put your hand in that point were your handle will be, then move your palm up or down until your lower arm will be parallel to the ground - this is the point where handle should be. In fact your arm should be relaxed as much as possible, dangling from the shoulder at one end and resting on handle palm-rest on the other. You will also realize that if your lower arm and palm are on the one line - the flat of the hand (handbreadth) is twisted to the left ~10-15 deg, so this is desired angle of right flat side of handle of Hog. You can notice this twist in real A-10 as well (you can't see this in F-16 (origin of hog handle) because of different hand placement)).

And one last thing - 15 extender will give you almost the same handle move range as it is in real A-10.

PFA ugly picture of my setup, hope it help.

Markeebo · January 13, 2016

Great wor there. I wouldn't be worried at all with your setup.

Markeebo

Shogun0 · January 13, 2016

As far as I know - you can't twist handle for stock Hog. But with extender this will be plausible (depends on extender construction).
Regarding ergonomic: sit in your char relaxed, put your hand in that point were your handle will be, then move your palm up or down until your lower arm will be parallel to the ground - this is the point where handle should be. In fact your arm should be relaxed as much as possible, dangling from the shoulder at one end and resting on handle palm-rest on the other. You will also realize that if your lower arm and palm are on the one line - the flat of the hand (handbreadth) is twisted to the left ~10-15 deg, so this is desired angle of right flat side of handle of Hog. You can notice this twist in real A-10 as well (you can't see this in F-16 (origin of hog handle) because of different hand placement)).
And one last thing - 15 extender will give you almost the same handle move range as it is in real A-10.
PFA ugly picture of my setup, hope it help.

Man thank you so much with the help. I plan on ordering an extension and then lowering the mount. I measured it last night and I can drop it about 17cm.. so I may drop the mount 15cm, add a 15cm extension, and then roll the entire mount forward to give a more flat orientation. The downside is that it will move the entire joystick forward away from me. So I will need to cut the frame and side support bars and move it a bit closer. Thanks again for the help. This seems like a never ending project lol.

Markeebo- Thank you very much!!!

Shogun0 · January 13, 2016

Just to give you an idea of what I am working with..

This is the complete frame. I did lower the two pipes leading up to the joystick. The little pipes on the ground marked with 5 are 5" PVC pipes. I can remove those and replace with longer pipes to roll the platform forward to decrease the decline but push the stick further away.The 45 degree angle and T-Connectors they join to swivel. And you can see the cuts I would have to make to bring me closer to the stick.

This is the complete project as is. I added hooks to run the cables through and attached a powered USB hub to the right side to plug everything into, so I only need to use 1 USB port. I also plug my TrackIR 5 into that hub. If I brought myself closer to the stick, I would need to move the pedals forward as well.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Shogun0

Necroscope · January 13, 2016

http://s29.postimg.org/xlqoynu9z/completehotas.jpg

As far as I can see on this pic - you have plenty of space between chair and hog mount. Try to move mount as close to chair as possible.

...your chair looks to expensive to put a hole in it :)

But! Why if you take short extender but make things like this:

Shogun0 · January 13, 2016

http://s29.postimg.org/xlqoynu9z/completehotas.jpg
As far as I can see on this pic - you have plenty of space between chair and hog mount. Try to move mount as close to chair as possible.
...your chair looks to expensive to put a hole in it :)

But! Why if you take short extender but make things like this:

Oh that is an interesting thought! I could increase the angle to get a 90 degree and parallel with the ground and extend it over the base of the chair and use the chair for extra stability. Then mount the stick on top like you have drawn.

My only concern with doing it like the drawing you mentioned was adding an extension. Would adding a 7.5cm make it too tall if the base was aligned just above the chair? I would think a 15cm would be way too big then lol. I def want to add one to help with the small adjustment factor to fight that spring a bit easier.

and btw, your setup is awesome. I how the stick comes up through the bottom of the chair in what looks like a boot.

Necroscope · January 13, 2016

Oh that is an interesting thought! I could increase the angle to get a 90 degree and parallel with the ground and extend it over the base of the chair and use the chair for extra stability. Then mount the stick on top like you have drawn.

...and if you add some plate _under_ the pipes and bolt hog in there - you will got few extra cm down (pipe diameter) Like this (O=pipe):

.... ___

O_|___|_O

My only concern with doing it like the drawing you mentioned was adding an extension. Would adding a 7.5cm make it too tall if the base was aligned just above the chair? I would think a 15cm would be way too big then lol. I def want to add one to help with the small adjustment factor to fight that spring a bit easier.

Just tear off the handle, sit to the chair with it and find the sweet spot. Then measure it. :)

and btw, your setup is awesome. I how the stick comes up through the bottom of the chair in what looks like a boot.

Thanks. My extender can be separated in two pieces, so if I do not going to fly - I can simply detach it and chair become just a regular chair. ...with JetSeat vibro integrated.

And you right - this is never-ending process of creation and fun.

P.S. Just another idea - think about curved extender. Like this: http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/pict/231661753069_1.jpg

You can use your pipes and garden hose to make cheap prove of concept. Here the technique: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1057586&postcount=1

Punisher74 · January 13, 2016

Hey guys-

I got my new TM Warthog in from the great Jet sale last week and built a PVC mount. The joystick is mounted on a 4" cap that fits into a coupling that was mounted on an angular stand.

I posted this on Reddit and someone thought this was a bad idea. The joystick is angled maybe 15-20 degrees or so, thus the center of gravity is not directly on top of the gimbal. I am not heavy handed on the controls at all, but even so, that ear worm was planted inside of my head and now I am wondering if I am slowly going to be destroying my Warthog joystick. It returns to center just fine.... right now.

Any thoughts? Does the Warthog joystick need to be straight up and down or can it be angled back at rest? I know I am being a bit paranoid, but even with the sale I got it on... it isn't cheap lol. Perhaps I should contact TM and see what they say?

I'd like to make something similar can you post plans or pole dimensions

Shogun0 · January 13, 2016

...and if you add some plate _under_ the pipes and bolt hog in there - you will got few extra cm down (pipe diameter) Like this (O=pipe):
.... ___
O_|___|_O

Great idea. Gonna pick up some extra t-connectors and angle(45 and 90) connectors when I get home. I have some ideas to test.

My new i5-6600k and GTX 980 Ti come in tomorrow :) So I need to get this in a semi-done state before I build my new system and am ready to take to the silky smooth skies. I will update with a picture of whatever I come up with just to see what you think. Thanks again.

Shogun0 · January 14, 2016

I'd like to make something similar can you post plans or pole dimensions

It is all 1" Schedule 40 PVC found at Home Depot, Lowes, etc.

So, I tore apart my entire joystick base tonight and started just tinkering around and found something I like. I noticed a bit of flexing when I pushed forward on the stick so I figured I would knock that out as well. I needed some more pieces but my hw store closed already. Going to have to finish up tomorrow.

Matching up with the green highlighted numbers..

1- I am going to swap out that T-Connector for a 4-way. That way I can mirror the forward supports backwards as well.

2- There is 8.8cm of space between those connections. I ordered a 7.5mm extension, so when that gets here.. I will drop that space out and just connect the connectors together with no space. Then make up that distance with the 7.5cm extension. That will also help with any minimal flexing that may exist after my fix.

3- I drilled pilot holes into the pipes there. When I can get to the store tomorrow, I will buy the right screws and attach those leg supports to the floorboards as well.

4- Right now, I have the connectors joined together. The stick sits about 1" in front of my chair. I may toss a 1" spacer in there and get it pressed right up against the chair. Having this orientation I can now adjust how far the stick is out or not. I like that.

I kind of combined some ideas we both had and really like what I came up with. Especially getting a more stable base and getting the orientation back to a vertical resting position.

Shogun0 · January 29, 2016

Well, after thinking about designs (thanks Necroscope!) I finally was able to completely straighten out my joystick stand. Just rocked it back and extended it out to my chair.

And since then, I have also built a new desktop (980Ti,i5-6600K0) and thought.. man my monitor is far away! So I bought a new desk (cupholder was a must). But then I realized even with a new desk, my joystick was too tall with the extension and I didn't want to lower it. It is perfect now.. slightly rotated ccw, forearm parallel to the ground. It is just comfortable!

So.. I thought well since I have this awesome new desktop... bye bye 21" Samsung monitor. Hello 27" 1440p IPS monitor (overclocked to 96hz). But it was still far away! So I purchased a nice VESA-mounted monitor arm so I can now adjust the height/tilt of the monitor.. and pull it as close as I want! Since it is 1440p, I don't see any pixels at all. It is butter.

And if I want to play another game, browse the web, log into work at 3AM like I have been for the last 3 nights... I just unplug the single USB cable from the front of the PC (thanks to USB hub), slide the entire stand back, push the monitor, mouse, and keyboard back... and I'm good to go.

Thanks for all of the help and ideas guys! I love my new setup and I feel very comfortable with it now.

Necroscope · February 6, 2016

Congratulations! :)

98abaile · February 6, 2016

I bought a monitor arm myself while making a similar hotas stand; it's amazing how much desk space you get back as well.

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