Supporting wingman's SARH ?

[SinusoidDelta]

Wow how quick you both answer. Well take it easy guys.

 

Noop... I respect the hard opposition you both made in every Russian thread. Go and search more than 10 post made by me in the F-15 forum. The few I made have been respectful and never trying to put the F-15 in the worst.

Don't take it too personal. I think most agree with you, it sounds very appealing. A technical solution to do it just doesn't exist for us. I was thinking maybe in the eagle, illuminating the target with flood after launching a sparrow. The missile determines the target reflected radar signal by sampling rear facing wave guides. If they aren't from the launching aircraft or the target is illuminated by more than one radar, it'd probably be unable to resolve the target at all.

Edited January 16, 2016 by SinusoidDelta

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

Well thanks for all the answers to my question. I've found your responses enlightening.

 

I like the challenge of using SARH missiles. Supersonic jousting game of chicken, who ever flinches first stops supporting their own missile.

 

I didn't use to fly jets because I thought BVR had no interesting tactics or challenges. I was wrong . BVR is quite a chess game. Very fast chess game with G suits.

 

I had assumed that SARH missiles use the same proportional navigation as IR missile and it didn't matter who was illuminating the target. But now you explain that the launching plane is linked to the missile in flight and constantly updating target position I am wondering what happens if I fire two SARH missiles?

Does the launch plane give both constant updates or just the last missile fired? Does the missile make the calculations or does the computer on the plane? It is a waste to fire more than one SARH missile at a time?

The more I learn the more I realize I have to learn.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Dirty Rotten Flieger

[Ragnarok]

Well thanks for all the answers to my question. I've

Does the launch plane give both constant updates or just the last missile fired? Does the missile make the calculations or does the computer on the plane? It is a waste to fire more than one SARH missile at a time?

The more I learn the more I realize I have to learn.

 

why do you think lighthouse at sea can not show bright for more ships simultaneously?

[red_coreSix]

I had assumed that SARH missiles use the same proportional navigation as IR missile and it didn't matter who was illuminating the target. But now you explain that the launching plane is linked to the missile in flight and constantly updating target position I am wondering what happens if I fire two SARH missiles?

Does the launch plane give both constant updates or just the last missile fired? Does the missile make the calculations or does the computer on the plane? It is a waste to fire more than one SARH missile at a time?

The more I learn the more I realize I have to learn.

 

I don't know the details but if you fire a second one it probably gives that missile a different ID and broadcasts the guidance updates for both missiles simultaneously. The missile does the calculations based on its INS data. Since the radar doesn't know where the missiles are in space it can only provide the targets position.

And no it's not a waste to fire more than one, it's a valid tactic to ripple two R-27s since you never know if one eats a chaff. Even better if you fire two different seekers (ER/ET).

[GGTharos]

I had assumed that SARH missiles use the same proportional navigation as IR missile and it didn't matter who was illuminating the target.

 

They do use some forms of proportional navigation.

They are also tuned to the launching aircraft's radar frequency, which is different from that of other aircraft in the flight to prevent interference.

 

But now you explain that the launching plane is linked to the missile in flight and constantly updating target position I am wondering what happens if I fire two SARH missiles?

Does the launch plane give both constant updates or just the last missile fired? Does the missile make the calculations or does the computer on the plane? It is a waste to fire more than one SARH missile at a time?

The more I learn the more I realize I have to learn.

 

The missile is homing, so it makes its own calculations. The missile data-link will usually have a separate ID for each missile when we're talking about radar sets of that era.

[Cik]

the gain seems marginal at best.

 

what would achieve essentially the same effect and be way more helpful in general would be the activation or fix or coding or whatever of the su27 datalink, in which case you could actually run loose deuce or other wide formations without getting hopelessly separated once you break 3nm apart.

 

then you could actually make the case that running such formations would actually help in BVR, instead of the current case of close formation being the only realistic option if you ever want to keep track of each other.

[GGTharos]

You don't need data-link for loose deuce. It helps, but you don't need it at all. What you need is SA (ie communication) and (very quick and easy) pilot math in your own head. The data-link replaces a lot of that.

[Cik]

not required but would be a huge boon.

 

as it is if you are wide enough to exploit eagleTWS limitations you are wide enough to be out of visual. even assuming you are very good you have to maintain a constant two-way conversation about where you are, where the enemy is, where you are going etc.

 

a single dropped "packet" of information will lead to wildly inaccurate fixes. even if you are extremely proficient at estimating, you will still often be off by enough to make re-acquiring visual for mutual support impossible. acquiring visual in DCS is very difficult at long range, and especially if you are the high man looking down.

 

datalink allows multiship tactics to be employed effectively with a reasonable amount of radio chatter.

 

see: falcon 4, where the link16 makes threat, defensive, and fox calls the only necessary information over the radio and improves SA of everybody a thousandfold.

[SinusoidDelta]

not required but would be a huge boon.

 

as it is if you are wide enough to exploit eagleTWS limitations you are wide enough to be out of visual. even assuming you are very good you have to maintain a constant two-way conversation about where you are, where the enemy is, where you are going etc.

 

.

 

I apologize if I'm misreading your comment but the single biggest issue in multiplayer is a lack of communication, coordination and mutual support. How did the eagle drivers get by in the decades before data link? Or anyone the decades of air combat before. They did it just as you described. It's not about being very good as a lone wolf. You can shout bra calls all day. I often hear a cacophony of them in MP TS and it's totally useless because I have no clue where you are and where your nose is pointed. Act as a cohesive group. Make a plan. One wingie is scanning low, the other is scanning high. Lose sight of your wingman? Call Blind. If you need to build SA then start giving your bullseye reference and request posit from your team mates. Now they when they get a contact you know roughly wear it is. Build a picture. That is situational awareness and it's the next best thing to datalink.

[GGTharos]

Yes, and my point still stands.

But it's certainly boon, so the next project is the data-link destroying SoJ ;)

 

datalink allows multiship tactics to be employed effectively with a reasonable amount of radio chatter.

Edited February 11, 2016 by GGTharos

[Cik]

I apologize if I'm misreading your comment but the single biggest issue in multiplayer is a lack of communication, coordination and mutual support. How did the eagle drivers get by in the decades before data link? Or anyone the decades of air combat before. They did it just as you described. It's not about being very good as a lone wolf. You can shout bra calls all day. I often hear a cacophony of them in MP TS and it's totally useless because I have no clue where you are and where your nose is pointed. Act as a cohesive group. Make a plan. One wingie is scanning low, the other is scanning high. Lose sight of your wingman? Call Blind. If you need to build SA then start giving your bullseye reference and request posit from your team mates. Now they when they get a contact you know roughly wear it is. Build a picture. That is situational awareness and it's the next best thing to datalink.

 

in the history of air combat generally you did not have to fly a formation so wide you lost visual.

 

loose deuce is essentially a visual formation i believe, it was invented in WWII and didn't involve losing visual there (AFAIK)

 

eagleTWS necessarily stretches your formation very wide, as flying even relatively far away (but still within visual) means that you are still within parameters of eagle multilaunch capability.

 

 

the SU27's wide formation requirement (if you want an actual numbers advantage you would not have by flying solo anyway) requires very atypically wide spreads between wingman and lead. if you fly close enough to stay visual having just one extra sukhoi with you is mostly pointless, because your PK probably doesn't rise much with the ER and you can still both be killed by AMRAAM.

[GGTharos]

You don't really need any type of wide formation whatsoever to trash DCS slammers or deny consistent DCSTWS tracking. When/if a DCS eagle comes around, you won't really have any any opportunities to fly wide enough to escape the eagle's radar anyway and you'll need to adopt different tactics.

 

And yes, loose-deuce can be visual; it's a doctrine anyway, not a formation - and that's why it can apply to BVR.

[Cik]

the objective is to win and kill the eagle though, and your chances of actually doing that 1v1 are very slim.

 

the whole point of this entire discussion was "how to beat eagle?" the answer was "go wide, fire lots of missiles, try to split his attention, press & kill"

 

you can always of course exit the fight at a high airspeed, spam chaff and probably evade the slammer(s)

 

but that's not really a victory.

[pr1malr8ge]

the objective is to win and kill the eagle though, and your chances of actually doing that 1v1 are very slim.

 

the whole point of this entire discussion was "how to beat eagle?" the answer was "go wide, fire lots of missiles, try to split his attention, press & kill"

 

you can always of course exit the fight at a high airspeed, spam chaff and probably evade the slammer(s)

 

but that's not really a victory.

 

Umm no, the point of the thread was to buddy guide a missile. Secondary was to achieve a kill against a target which could be an eagle, m2k, su27, mig29, so on and so forth.

 

While your arguments on flying a wide formation to keep TWS from being able to fire on both while this maybe but it still does not hide you from radar.. If I'm flying an eagle and I see a wide formation I'm just going to gimble one and keep the second way off. This effectively puts you out of the picture and lets me fight your wingman.

 

 

|you _______|your wingman

 

_______________|me

 

as you can see I have just made it a 1vs1. Only option you have now is to turn in and support your wing man by again closing in to a point where I can now pick you both up on TWS and again I now have the ability to fire on both of you. Or I can just bug out.

 

The only time your formation is going to be effective would be a head on engagement against an uneducated pilot.

[SinusoidDelta]

in the history of air combat generally you did not have to fly a formation so wide you lost visual.

 

loose deuce is essentially a visual formation i believe, it was invented in WWII and didn't involve losing visual there (AFAIK)

 

eagleTWS necessarily stretches your formation very wide, as flying even relatively far away (but still within visual) means that you are still within parameters of eagle multilaunch capability.

 

 

the SU27's wide formation requirement (if you want an actual numbers advantage you would not have by flying solo anyway) requires very atypically wide spreads between wingman and lead. if you fly close enough to stay visual having just one extra sukhoi with you is mostly pointless, because your PK probably doesn't rise much with the ER and you can still both be killed by AMRAAM.

 

What is an atypical wide spread?

 

You don't need to maintain visual to coordinate. You need to navigate. Human nature is to latch on to inaccuracies and shout for a quick fix to keep their K/D ratio around one bum rushing their adversaries. Many neglect what DCS does well. It provides us an opportunity to understand the value of a compass, the unexpected effect of angles and more importantly the necessity for three dimensional thinking...something very foreign to us terrestrials.

 

Bombers didn't navigate to their targets and back home by wishing in on stars and praying. They did the math. Long hand.

 

If combat spread doesn't work, don't do that anymore. Flying line abreast right to the enemy is not a tactic. Switch formations mid flight, be unpredictable. You have to find a weakness and exploit. Set up your wingman to be unexpected by that eagle. You both win. Bracket them, get creative. Set a trap. Make your priority to stay alive at all costs. RTB with zero kills and every missile on your rail. If you learn to survive you'll become deadly quick. Do the same thing too much and you'll become tired of DCS in a hurry.

Edited February 12, 2016 by SinusoidDelta

[Frostie]

While your arguments on flying a wide formation to keep TWS from being able to fire on both while this maybe but it still does not hide you from radar.. If I'm flying an eagle and I see a wide formation I'm just going to gimble one and keep the second way off. This effectively puts you out of the picture and lets me fight your wingman.

 

 

|you _______|your wingman

 

_______________|me

 

as you can see I have just made it a 1vs1. Only option you have now is to turn in and support your wing man by again closing in to a point where I can now pick you both up on TWS and again I now have the ability to fire on both of you. Or I can just bug out.

 

The only time your formation is going to be effective would be a head on engagement against an uneducated pilot.

 

This could be what they want you to do, so as they can then apply altitude separation without your knowledge. You've just presented your hottest parts to EOS, now your target will turn into his buddy who is low or high and hot on you, your SA is halved because your TEWS has gone quiet on the 2nd guy added to the fact you're battling a long range shot, what do you do wait for him to pop up on radar like expected, seems like a bit of a gamble that everything is going to fall into place especially considering you've got the 1st bandit on full left gimbal. I predict an unexpected IR through the side of your canopy, or you sacrifice all SA to two Flankers that are going to chase you from different angles.

 

But I mostly agree wide spread is not really going to get outside scan zones until it gets too wide.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Frostie

[Cik]

What is an atypical wide spread?

 

You don't need to maintain visual to coordinate. You need to navigate. Human nature is to latch on to inaccuracies and shout for a quick fix to keep their K/D ratio around one bum rushing their adversaries. Many neglect what DCS does well. It provides us an opportunity to understand the value of a compass, the unexpected effect of angles and more importantly the necessity for three dimensional thinking...something very foreign to us terrestrials.

 

Bombers didn't navigate to their targets and back home by wishing in on stars and praying. They did the math. Long hand.

 

If combat spread doesn't work, don't do that anymore. Flying line abreast right to the enemy is not a tactic. Switch formations mid flight, be unpredictable. You have to find a weakness and exploit. Set up your wingman to be unexpected by that eagle. You both win. Bracket them, get creative. Set a trap. Make your priority to stay alive at all costs. RTB with zero kills and every missile on your rail. If you learn to survive you'll become deadly quick. Do the same thing too much and you'll become tired of DCS in a hurry.

 

all basically platitudes and you're assuming a great deal about what i do in general, aren't you?

 

most of your advice is so general as to be worthless

 

"set a trap" how exactly? "find a weakness"? what weakness? the only weakness i can find is that you can approach low and smoke them with ETs, which isn't exactly a BVR strategy.

 

"RTB with missiles on the rails" i do this already genius, unfortunately that's not exactly a win condition. i would have achieved the same effect if i had simply never taken off.'

 

"set up your wingman to be unexpected by the eagle"

 

yeah okay that's what i'm already doing

 

btw navigating as a group when your only real reference is the F-10 map, an extremely clumsy and coarse indicator of position (which by the way changes every 10 seconds because i'm in a supersonic aircraft) and can't be referenced while fighting anything is effectively worthless.

 

FYI, bombers had an hour and had to fly in a straight line the majority of the time, comparing the situation to a supersonic jet fighter shooting and defending all over the place is quite a laugh.

[SinusoidDelta]

all basically platitudes and you're assuming a great deal about what i do in general, aren't you?

 

most of your advice is so general as to be worthless

 

"set a trap" how exactly? "find a weakness"? what weakness? the only weakness i can find is that you can approach low and smoke them with ETs, which isn't exactly a BVR strategy.

 

"RTB with missiles on the rails" i do this already genius, unfortunately that's not exactly a win condition. i would have achieved the same effect if i had simply never taken off.'

 

"set up your wingman to be unexpected by the eagle"

 

yeah okay that's what i'm already doing

 

btw navigating as a group when your only real reference is the F-10 map, an extremely clumsy and coarse indicator of position (which by the way changes every 10 seconds because i'm in a supersonic aircraft) and can't be referenced while fighting anything is effectively worthless.

 

FYI, bombers had an hour and had to fly in a straight line the majority of the time, comparing the situation to a supersonic jet fighter shooting and defending all over the place is quite a laugh.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything. I'll keep my worthless advice to myself. Best of luck navigating through the F10 map.

[Cik]

that's pinging on my sarcasm detector, so i'll ask if you have some mystical advice about keeping track of friends that aren't in visual range without a datalink and an extremely basic navigation mode?

 

AFAIK it doesn't even represent bullseye at all, though it's been months since i've flown the thing after i pretty much stopped playing su27 in disgust in the current state of it's missiles online.

[SinusoidDelta]

See this thread:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=140205

[Cik]

see why didn't you just give useful advice in the first place sheesh :P

[pr1malr8ge]

all basically platitudes and you're assuming a great deal about what i do in general, aren't you?

 

most of your advice is so general as to be worthless

 

"set a trap" how exactly? "find a weakness"? what weakness? the only weakness i can find is that you can approach low and smoke them with ETs, which isn't exactly a BVR strategy.

 

"RTB with missiles on the rails" i do this already genius, unfortunately that's not exactly a win condition. i would have achieved the same effect if i had simply never taken off.'

 

"set up your wingman to be unexpected by the eagle"

 

yeah okay that's what i'm already doing

 

btw navigating as a group when your only real reference is the F-10 map, an extremely clumsy and coarse indicator of position (which by the way changes every 10 seconds because i'm in a supersonic aircraft) and can't be referenced while fighting anything is effectively worthless.

 

FYI, bombers had an hour and had to fly in a straight line the majority of the time, comparing the situation to a supersonic jet fighter shooting and defending all over the place is quite a laugh.

 

See the issue you have is you want to just go out and KILL everything and expect to walk away unscathed. It just does not work this way and what Sinus has said is valid advice. In the 104th I currently have a 5kdr and it's not because I just go flying straight in and launching my missiles. It's because I fly to a standard that I don't care if I kill some one I just want to take off and return to base intact.

 

You act as if the eagle drivers don't have to use f10? also what about pre modern era of aircraft do you think they just always had GPS and Datalink?

 

that's pinging on my sarcasm detector, so i'll ask if you have some mystical advice about keeping track of friends that aren't in visual range without a datalink and an extremely basic navigation mode?

 

AFAIK it doesn't even represent bullseye at all, though it's been months since i've flown the thing after i pretty much stopped playing su27 in disgust in the current state of it's missiles online.

Your sarcasm detector should be your own personal BS alarm every time you type it should be BLARING. You seem to want everything to be a comfort for you and just be able to take off press the fire button and everything in the air just start breaking up and falling to the ground.

 

see why didn't you just give useful advice in the first place sheesh :P

 

I see you're having some issues with sarcasm your self. To bad your detector again doesn't blare in your ear telling you to stop being you!

Edited February 12, 2016 by pr1malr8ge

[pr1malr8ge]

This could be what they want you to do, so as they can then apply altitude separation without your knowledge. You've just presented your hottest parts to EOS, now your target will turn into his buddy who is low or high and hot on you, your SA is halved because your TEWS has gone quiet on the 2nd guy added to the fact you're battling a long range shot, what do you do wait for him to pop up on radar like expected, seems like a bit of a gamble that everything is going to fall into place especially considering you've got the 1st bandit on full left gimbal. I predict an unexpected IR through the side of your canopy, or you sacrifice all SA to two Flankers that are going to chase you from different angles.

 

But I mostly agree wide spread is not really going to get outside scan zones until it gets too wide.

 

Frostie you have valid points, but I'm not referring to a tactical wide formation. as you said this would not be outside TWS scan parameters. What I'm talking about is CIK's denotion of wide which is probably over a 10nm separation. As this goes, my tactic is sound and even if he does turn in to support his missile would have virtually such a LOW chance of PK and not to mention the smoke trail alone would be visible. Even if he did separate in altitude he just is not close enough to truly help his wing man fast enough.

[Cik]

See the issue you have is you want to just go out and KILL everything and expect to walk away unscathed. It just does not work this way and what Sinus has said is valid advice. In the 104th I currently have a 5kdr and it's not because I just go flying straight in and launching my missiles. It's because I fly to a standard that I don't care if I kill some one I just want to take off and return to base intact.

 

as i said, i already do this

 

 

You act as if the eagle drivers don't have to use f10? also what about pre modern era of aircraft do you think they just always had GPS and Datalink?

i don't really care what eagle drivers have to do in this case. not having datalink effects sukhois far more because they actually have to use wide tactics. all the eagle has to do is maneuver to RTR and fire.

 

in the pre-modern era datalink was not required or necessary, because aircraft flew large, relatively close formations and did not have to deal with multilaunch capability, which is the whole point of the wide formation in the first place.

 

this whole conversation started because someone (GG, i believe) said in his usual extremely unhelpful deflection "just go wide stupid!" so i've gone over the whole reason why that doesn't work

 

FYI, it doesn't ****ing work. i have no idea why you're offended about it, considering you aren't even involved nor have you prevented any evidence that i'm actually incorrect.

 

sure, i snapped at the other guy but come on, that advice WAS totally unhelpful. i've tried all of it before, too.

 

btw i have far above 1:1 KD in the sukhoi on 104th so don't take that angle.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Cik

[pr1malr8ge]

as i said, i already do this

The way you're blabbering on, it seems you don't. By the way I read your responses is you're either A. not getting kills and going back pissed. or B. you're getting shot down and might be getting a wash of 1:1 or no kill and a death.

 

i don't really care what eagle drivers have to do in this case. not having datalink effects sukhois far more because they actually have to use wide tactics. all the eagle has to do is maneuver to RTR and fire.

Ohh and you still think not having DL doesn't affect the Eagle either? What are you going to do when the F18 is released with it's DL and TWS capability? It's also not so simple to just Manuver and fire. Eagles still have to support their missile to pitbull. It also doesn't have the magic eye and ET either.

 

in the pre-modern era datalink was not required or necessary, because aircraft flew large, relatively close formations and did not have to deal with multilaunch capability, which is the whole point of the wide formation in the first place.

You seem to think DL is an always working system. You do know it is LOS based right? Learn how to use BRA system and work with awingman in TS and it will just fine. Seems you want everything handed to you.

 

this whole conversation started because someone (GG, i believe) said in his usual extremely unhelpful deflection "just go wide stupid!" so i've gone over the whole reason why that doesn't work

I never said it did work. I actualy pointed out that a "WIDE" formation that prevents the use of TWS of the eagle just puts you or your wingman in a 1/1 rather then a flight of 2.

I'm pretty sure GG didn't call your stupid and you're taking his advice wrong and thinking you need to be BVR to your wingman which is NOT THE CASE. Your understanding of Tactics is what is the problem. The eagle vs eagle has to deal with the same issues you describe. and both parties have ML capabilities.

 

FYI, it doesn't ****ing work. i have no idea why you're offended about it, considering you aren't even involved nor have you prevented any evidence that i'm actually incorrect.

prevented any evidence? Nope but I never said you were incorrect on going wide. [if thats what you mean it doesn't work] but what I am saying is that you're being RUDE to people and you're also having issues grasping what it means to be in a combat formation. DL isn't going to solve your issues.

 

sure, i snapped at the other guy but come on, that advice WAS totally unhelpful. i've tried all of it before, too.

This here is why you got my backlash. Sinus did NOT attack you. He was trying to give advice. Just because you DON'T think it's useful does not mean it isn't.

 

btw i have far above 1:1 KD in the sukhoi on 104th so don't take that angle.

I don't need to. You're arguing the first thing someone should be aware of when getting into this sim. SURVIVE. I fly to survive and getting a kill is secondary to landing safely. If I take off and land with all missiles on the rail but I at least tied up an enemy chasing me and leaves my buddies to engage one less bandit who could have killed one of them then I did my job. Even with that as I said my KDR is at 5:1