rotor intersection IAS

[Migow]

hi , rotor intersection should not happen if the IAS overspeed alarm is off ,especially in high altitude, i think the flight model is broken:(

the real helicopter has been tested in Wind tunnel . The current alarm is useless , it should alarm when helicopter enter dangerous flight envelope.

 

the bug exist since BS1

hope ED fix it :)

[Yurgon]

As I understand it, flying faster than the IAS MAX alarm is almost guaranteed to make rotor blade salad. But to my knowledge this is by far not the only way to get rotor blade intersection, depending on your flight parameters.

 

When in doubt, you should post a track and/or point out the exact parameters.

 

Also, what's your real world reference to call this a bug?

[Necroscope]

Try to avoid any G, right turns and especially right pedal (its obsolete on this speed but still) on speeds near maximum and you good to go. Overspeed isn't the only reason of blades collapse.

[Raptor9]

You can pull several G's as long as you don't exceed the dynamic G-limit. Just as the airspeed ladder on the left side has a sideways "L" that moves up and down depending on altitude and temp, the G-meter also has one that moves up and down depending on conditions. If you exceed this, the lower rotor could cone up into the upper rotor.

 

Having said that, these are just estimations the flight computer is making. Like the above posters said, there are several ways to intersect the rotors. Applying aggressive cyclic inputs during high power settings (collective all the way up or nearly all the way) is another way.

 

If you're careful, you can exceed the dynamic VNE indicator (which is easy when pulling out of a dive at high altitudes like the Nevada map) and still not sheer any rotors. You just have to be very deliberate and careful not to over-control. Practice helps.

[schroedi]

The main reason for rotor salad is to much stick movement while giving much pitch.

If you lower the pitch angle near to the minimum you can dive vertically with nearly 500kph and make hard G maneuveres.

[ShuRugal]

The main reason for rotor salad is to much stick movement while giving much pitch.

If you lower the pitch angle near to the minimum you can dive vertically with nearly 500kph and make hard G maneuveres.

 

^^ fun as hell to do it, too.

[Raptor9]

Ha ha, yeah no kidding. These were captured in August 2012. 508 km/h at the bottom of a max-altitude dive, no rotors sheered. And for good measure, level flight path at 24,000 feet (Only took me two weeks to get there :rolleyes:)

 

 

[Deezle]

I find a good rule of thumb in normal flight is try not to pull much G above 200 kph, once you've slowed down a little it's much more forgiving to whipping it around.

[Yurgon]

Ha ha, yeah no kidding. These were captured in August 2012. 508 km/h at the bottom of a max-altitude dive, no rotors sheered. And for good measure, level flight path at 24,000 feet (Only took me two weeks to get there :rolleyes:)

 

Haha, nice! :thumbup:

 

Didn't get quite that fast myself, but it only took me half a week to climb to altitude. :D

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2214384#post2214384

[Migow]

the ka 50 is a agile combat helicopter ,not an airliner it mean you should move like you want without over G , if you can't move with right yaw , it means you are already in dangerous flight envelope and the alarm must be on .

the ka 50 has been studied theoretically , with Wind tunnel , real test etc..

kamov got the data. You should never break the helo with alarm off EVER.

this is not magic .

it the same with plane

ED implementation is broken :(

it make helicopter harder to flight.

you have to "guess" the dangerous flight envelope , that's BS:cry:

 

plane can survive over G, the ka 50 cant survive rotor collision , this why IAS alarm is more important than G meter in combat plane, yet it is broken.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Fifou265

[Migow]

As I understand it, flying faster than the IAS MAX alarm is almost guaranteed to make rotor blade salad. But to my knowledge this is by far not the only way to get rotor blade intersection, depending on your flight parameters.

 

When in doubt, you should post a track and/or point out the exact parameters.

 

Also, what's your real world reference to call this a bug?

 

the ka 50 has been studied theoretically , with Wind tunnel , real test etc..

kamov got the data. You should never break the helo with alarm off EVER.

[Flagrum]

The overspeed alarm is ... well, an overspeed alarm, not an "oh, maybe something will break if you do something stupid now"-alarm.

 

If you get an alaram in every situation where something terrible might happen ... well, in a helo you probably will probably never NOT hear that alarm. With just a dumb move with one of your hands (or feet) you can make any helo just fall out of the sky - how should the helo know what you are going to do? YOU need to know what you are doing (keyword here is "know", not "guess")...

[Migow]

The overspeed alarm is ... well, an overspeed alarm, not an "oh, maybe something will break if you do something stupid now"-alarm.

 

If you get an alaram in every situation where something terrible might happen ... well, in a helo you probably will probably never NOT hear that alarm. With just a dumb move with one of your hands (or feet) you can make any helo just fall out of the sky - how should the helo know what you are going to do? YOU need to know what you are doing (keyword here is "know", not "guess")...

 

What about Dangerous flight envelope?

 

the higher you fly the closer the rotor get , and funny thing the IAS alarm trigger at lower speed , the speed alarm is about dangerous flight envelope

no one is sane to fly a machine with such fatal flaw , if there is no alarm

 

this not airliner , but a agile combat helicopter

with such flaw the ka50 would never has been choosen in 80s

 

the fly model has been changed many time... in DCS

 

the chopper doesn't need to know what you do.

it need IAS and pressure, with that you can guess when you are in dangerous flight envelope

if you are in dangerous flight envelope if you move to much right yaw , left bank , collective ,etc whatever , you break the helo.

outside dangerous flight envelope do whatever you want without over G

 

so if you can't move like you want it means you are already in dangerous flight envelope

 

the alarm should be on (IAS and pressure)

 

the alarm trigger at lower speed the higher you are ( and rotor get closer).

this is not magic

even mig21 has AOA in dangerous flight envelope alarm

Edited January 18, 2016 by Fifou265

[Yurgon]

I'm still unsure on one -rather important- point.

 

Do you know for a fact that the real Ka-50 sounds these alarms in the situations you mentioned, and that DCS erroneously omits them?

 

My impression so far is that you don't actually know, and simply assume. Which means this whole discussion would be pointless.

 

Assuming I'm right (that you yourself are only assuming), let me point out a simple fact. Ka-50 pilots (like all military pilots on the globe, except in the very last stages of losing a war) are very, very well trained professionals. They know the flight envelope of their aircraft extremely well. They don't need an alarm going off for every maneuver that might potentially be lethal. As you keep repeating, we're not talking about airliners that need to stay out of dangerous situations, we're talking about purpose-built, high maneuverable combat aircraft that are supposed to fly in dangerous and even hazardous conditions. If the pilots don't know how to handle them, they shouldn't (and wouldn't, most of the time) be flying them.

 

To the best of my knowledge, the DCS Ka-50 is very close to the real helicopter (or rather: to one of the few prototypes that were built), including modeling of rotor blade collision and IAS MAX warnings.

 

If you have proof to the contrary, please present it so that we all learn something. :smartass:

[Yo-Yo]

the ka 50 has been studied theoretically , with Wind tunnel , real test etc..

kamov got the data. You should never break the helo with alarm off EVER.

 

The alarm does only one thing - watching the speed. The pilot has to learn a lot of restrictions depending on flight parameters providing by Kamov company after study and tests.

If the pilotage in this video does not present combat helo ability, I think, you need an X-wing FM. :)

[Migow]

The alarm does only one thing - watching the speed. The pilot has to learn a lot of restrictions depending on flight parameters providing by Kamov company after study and tests.

If the pilotage in this video does not present combat helo ability, I think, you need an X-wing FM. :)

 

hi , yoyo himself :)

which hazard the alarm prevent then?

 

rotor intersection is fatal hazard , why the alarm can't tell me dangerous flight envelope kamov got the data

why can we fly at 500 km/h in game ? no way the real one can do that!

my opinion in high speed there is a margin difference between the real data and the game

 

the rotor anti ice alarm(ekran) is plague with similar bug , it trigger long time after your engine are already frozen

Edited January 19, 2016 by Fifou265

[Flagrum]

500 km/h? no way the virtual one can do that either! Not in level flight, just driven by the engines.

 

In a (steep) dive? Sure. But why would the real helo not be able to do that, too?

[Migow]

500 km/h? no way the virtual one can do that either! Not in level flight, just driven by the engines.

 

In a (steep) dive? Sure. But why would the real helo not be able to do that, too?

 

in dive correct.

in dive , i remember a player moving as fast as 700km/h:cry:

[Flagrum]

So, and your opinion is, the real helo can not dive that fast?

 

What, besides the instinct of self-preservation of the pilot (which might be a bit stronger in RL than in our VL ...), is technically preventing it from doing that? Probably an other form of self-preservation instinct of the pilot: to not have to explain to his superiours the additional maintenance costs caused by overstressing the airframe.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Flagrum

[Migow]

So, and your opinion is, the real helo can not dive that fast?

 

What, besides the instict of self-preservation of the pilot (which might be a bit stronger in RL than in our VL ...), is technically preventing it from doing that?

 

too much blade flutter , and blade tips going supersonic? -> catastrophic rotor failure:noexpression:

[Flagrum]

too much blade flutter , and blade tips going supersonic? -> catastrophic rotor failure:noexpression:

Am no expert, but super sonic blade tips don't tear a rotor apart. You will have to deal with extreme effects of dis-symmetry of lift and retreating blade stall ... but only if you keep the collective up.

 

Try that in DCS and you will see why it is not advisable. 500 ... 700 km/h are only possible with the aid of gravity and a collective pinned to the cabin floor. Or to put it differently: these are stunts that (DCS) pilots perform, which not violate the laws of phyisc, but still are stunts.

 

If the real helo could reach 700 km/h or only 650 km/h ... maybe you are right ... but I don't know. But I am pretty sure it would be possible to do something similar in RL.

[Migow]

Am no expert, but super sonic blade tips don't tear a rotor apart. You will have to deal with extreme effects of dis-symmetry of lift and retreating blade stall ... but only if you keep the collective up.

 

Try that in DCS and you will see why it is not advisable. 500 ... 700 km/h are only possible with the aid of gravity and a collective pinned to the cabin floor. Or to put it differently: these are stunts that (DCS) pilots perform, which not violate the laws of phyisc, but still are stunts.

 

If the real helo could reach 700 km/h or only 650 km/h ... maybe you are right ... but I don't know. But I am pretty sure it would be possible to do something similar in RL.

 

too much flutter will destroy the blade , supersonic boom will destroy blade

you need very strong wing to resist sonic boom , blade are not designed to survive sonic boom :cry::)

 

dis-symmetry of lift hazard is replaced with rotor intersection hazard in ka50 and too much flutter (which will trigger rotor intersection)

 

the solution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S-97_Raider to go faster :) combine coaxial rotor , shorter rotor , variable rpm and propeller :)

 

i dont think any helicopter's blade tip can go supersonic? it will be catastrophic

Edited January 19, 2016 by Fifou265

[Migow]

is it possible to get ka 50 chart about vne etc? public? secret ?:)

[Migow]

at seal level dangerous envelope flight zone start at 250 IAS kmh

 

at 1000 m 760qnh 200 IAS

:(

[Yurgon]

rotor intersection is fatal hazard , why the alarm can't tell me dangerous flight envelope kamov got the data

 

Just so we're really, absolutely on the same page: You are not saying ED got it wrong, you're saying Kamov got it wrong, right?

 

In which case, why are we even talking about this?

 

Edit:

 

Jayne: Testing. Testing, Captain, can you hear me?

Mal: I'm standing right here.

Jayne: You're coming through good and loud.

Mal: Coz' I'm standing right here.

Jayne: Yeah, well, but, the transmitters...

 

:D

Edited January 20, 2016 by Yurgon