Upcoming RDI Radar changes

[spiddx]

Thanks for the explanations.

 

Sooo, looking at the table... Is there any advantage in using anything other than high prf at the moment?

[Zeus67]

Thanks for the explanations.

 

Sooo, looking at the table... Is there any advantage in using anything other than high prf?

 

In RL, and when ED grants our request, the answer is yes.

 

LPRF allows you to detect slow moving targets like hovering helicopters and the like. It is impervious to notching. But it is useless for targeting and that is why no lock is possible. Also forget any kind of look-down capability, ground return will mask everything.

 

INT tries to provide the best of HPRF and LPRF with the least inconveniences. Unfortunately it cannot be used to guide weapons.

[spiddx]

That's what I thought, thanks. Sounds great. :thumbup:

On a related note: Is this system already functional in the current open beta? I see the indications on the radar display, but the switch is not animated, I didn't find any keybinds for it and I can't get to ENT mode with the mouse either...

[Zeus67]

That's what I thought, thanks. Sounds great. :thumbup:

On a related note: Is this system already functional in the current open beta? I see the indications on the radar display, but the switch is not animated, I didn't find any keybinds for it and I can't get to ENT mode with the mouse either...

 

It should be, but if not it is in the current stable release. BTW, the 1.5.3 stable patch has been released. Happy update!

[spiddx]

Ah nevermind then! DLing.. ^^

[spiddx]

Love the scan range change by TDC! :)

[Zeus67]

Love the scan range change by TDC! :)

 

I feel that I need to clarify something about scan range.

 

The radar has only one range and it only changes on PRF value (see the table). The scan range that you select is a filter that tells the radar to disregard any contact above the selected range, but the radar signal still reaches up to its limit. For HPRF setting the limit is about 80 nmiles although the detection range is 65. Keep that in mind when using radar in combat, your enemy can and will hear your radar on his RWR long before you can see him.

[GGTharos]

LPRF allows you to detect slow moving targets like hovering helicopters and the like.

 

I'm pretty sure that you can detect them with any prf - the reason being the moving rotor blades. F-15E's in AA mode (so same radar waveform and processing as APG-63 MSIP/II/v1) picked up landed helis from 50nm away. In HPRF.

 

It is impervious to notching. But it is useless for targeting and that is why no lock is possible. Also forget any kind of look-down capability, ground return will mask everything.

 

To me this means that a notch gate is not being used, which means anything that tries to notch is lost in the noise anyway - in other words, you don't even need to notch to break-lock or even avoid detection. 'Impervious to notch' is just ... wrong in the sense that it simply cannot be correct :)

There's no reason why you couldn't build a track with LPRF ... the F-16 does it (But, I suspect you're right that SARH weapons cannot be guided with LRPF - hence radars tend to force HPRF upon lock or when the pickle is pressed)

 

INT tries to provide the best of HPRF and LPRF with the least inconveniences. Unfortunately it cannot be used to guide weapons.

 

But the radar should attempt to transfer to HRPF when you launch, and stay there :) Most modern radars do this.

[spiddx]

But the radar should attempt to transfer to HRPF when you launch, and stay there :) Most modern radars do this.

By this you mean auto-switch to STT? (because STT seems to be impossible in INT mode).

[jojo]

I'm pretty sure that you can detect them with any prf - the reason being the moving rotor blades. F-15E's in AA mode (so same radar waveform and processing as APG-63 MSIP/II/v1) picked up landed helis from 50nm away. In HPRF.

 

 

 

To me this means that a notch gate is not being used, which means anything that tries to notch is lost in the noise anyway - in other words, you don't even need to notch to break-lock or even avoid detection. 'Impervious to notch' is just ... wrong in the sense that it simply cannot be correct :)

There's no reason why you couldn't build a track with LPRF ... the F-16 does it (But, I suspect you're right that SARH weapons cannot be guided with LRPF - hence radars tend to force HPRF upon lock or when the pickle is pressed)

 

 

 

But the radar should attempt to transfer to HRPF when you launch, and stay there :) Most modern radars do this.

 

There is what the real radar does, and what current SDK allow to do in DCS :music_whistling:

[GGTharos]

That's what I suspected; but creating some radar mode that is 'impervious' to the notch in look-down is downright wrong one way or the other. And that's no programming limitation. You can get something like that in very, very modern radars but this is for target detection and tracking; it isn't something you can guide a weapon with, and it is time consuming (typically some use of STAP algorithms)

Edited April 8, 2016 by GGTharos

[GGTharos]

No, I mean STT should attempt transfer to HPRF when possible, and always when launching.

 

By this you mean auto-switch to STT? (because STT seems to be impossible in INT mode).

[jojo]

That's what I suspected; but creating some radar mode that is 'impervious' to the notch in look-down is downright wrong one way or the other. And that's no programming limitation. You can get something like that in very, very modern radars but this is for target detection and tracking; it isn't something you can guide a weapon with, and it is time consuming (typically some use of STAP algorithms)

 

I don't know what you mean. You can't lock LPRF contact and so you can't shoot it.

So what's the problem ?

[VTJS17_Fire]

Sorry if I overread it. But is there a key for the manual select between these PRF modes (like in the F-15C) or does it work automatic?

 

Thanks in advance.

[GGTharos]

I don't know what you mean. You can't lock LPRF contact and so you can't shoot it.

So what's the problem ?

 

If it's in the notch or any situation resembling the notch, you shouldn't even have a target you could pretend to lock. It's a pretty big deal to be able to track something through the notch.

[jojo]

Sorry if I overread it. But is there a key for the manual select between these PRF modes (like in the F-15C) or does it work automatic?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Yes, on radar panel, HFR, BFR, between the 2 is ENT.

 

Currently ENT and BFR seem to be workaround.

Anyway IRL the main working mode is said to be HFR.

[jojo]

If it's in the notch or any situation resembling the notch, you shouldn't even have a target you could pretend to lock. It's a pretty big deal to be able to track something through the notch.

I know.

 

But currently you can't lock in BFR, neither in TWS nor in STT.

So what is the point ?

[GGTharos]

The point is that you maintain SA that you shouldn't have :)

[VTJS17_Fire]

Yes, on radar panel, HFR, BFR, between the 2 is ENT.

 

Currently ENT and BFR seem to be workaround.

Anyway IRL the main working mode is said to be HFR.

Thanks! But no key in the options, right?

[mattebubben]

Thanks! But no key in the options, right?

 

I think there are seperate keys for the different modes.

 

HPRF LPRF and INT.

 

But sadly there is no 1 key to toggle between them.

 

Wich is something i think should be added for many of the radar related Switches.

 

(PRF And for the Wide Medium Or Narrow Scan zones)

 

Since needing 6 keybinds for those 2 things is a bit much xD.

[Sarge55]

9 if you count the Bar scans as well...

[Azrayen]

LPRF allows you to detect slow moving targets like hovering helicopters and the like.

I'm pretty sure that you can detect them with any prf - the reason being the moving rotor blades.

You're probably right about helicopters. Perhaps a better example would have been any slow mover (airplane). Low speed difference vs the ground = close to notch = hard to detect with doppler HPRF.

 

It is impervious to notching.

To me this means that a notch gate is not being used, which means anything that tries to notch is lost in the noise anyway

Well, notch is not a factor then; noise is, sure. I guess you can reduce noise, somehow :)

Notch/beam = related to doppler mode.

 

There's no reason why you couldn't build a track with LPRF ...

Yet... ;)

[jojo]

There's no reason why you couldn't build a track with LPRF ... the F-16 does it

 

Yes and Mirage 2000-5 with RDY radar too.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/rdy-2-airborne-fire-control-radar

 

but it's about RDI here...

[GGTharos]

Well, notch is not a factor then; noise is, sure. I guess you can reduce noise, somehow :)

 

Yes, with doppler filtering. Even then when you tighten the notch down, you trade a smaller notch for noise - you WILL have false contacts. LPRF should deal with clutter rejection better, but clutter is clutter and LPRF neither immune to it nor is there a reason to believe that this mode doesn't use a doppler filter :)

[GGTharos]

If you have some idea as to why a radar couldn't track a contact in LPRF I'd like to know :)

 

Yes and Mirage 2000-5 with RDY radar too.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/rdy-2-airborne-fire-control-radar

 

but it's about RDI here...