Auto release not working?

[streakeagle]

I am flying the current release version 1.5352018

 

I can't seem to get bomb auto release to work. Just a few weeks ago, I was using this feature without issue (other than my bombing accuracy). Now, I can't get the bombs to release. I start at 10-12,000 feet, hold electrical caging until I am steady on target, then hold the weapon release button until I am forced to pull out due to extremely low altitude. I don't understand what has changed. I can still manually release bombs without issue, just auto release has failed... even when following the new tutorial to the letter.

[Flagrum]

I always had troubles with the automatic relese and when I asked here on the forums about it, people had not too much difficulties with it...

 

Now, after the official release of the F-86, I gave it an other try. And guess what - it is working for me now as well! So, now the roles in this thread are reversed ... :o)

 

I read in the BST manual, and I studied the RL flight manual as well. One thing got me thinking: the RL manual often speaks about "pusing over". I never thought too much about it (we simmers had already a hard time to get used to to roll in instead of just pushing the stick, right?). But together with the description of the procedure it started to make some sense to me.

 

The automatic release expects that certain g and aircraft attitude parameters are met. The idea behind it is, that you fly a tangent to the bomb's ballistic path which end point is the target. Therefore the "push over" makes sense: at first, your pitch angle of your tangent is too shallow, the impact point would be in front of the pipper (flatter ballistic curve of the ordnance). You push the stick further, the pitch angle gets steeper and the ballistic curve also gets steeper - and once the calculated impact point matches the pipper, automatic release is performed.

 

So, what works for me is: fly straight, just a little pitch down so that the pipper moves towards the target. Once it coincidene with it, release elelec. caging. Then keep the pipper on the target - by inreasing the pitch.

 

The roll in technique seldomly works for me. I tend to get too steep for the automatic release - I am not flying a tangent, but a chord to the ballistic path. Trying to correct that brings me off the target completely (the aircraft just crosses the ballistic path and then it's path is completely off and you have no time and means to judge the necessary second correction by now pushing over again...)

 

So, for the automatic release, a shallow approach works best for me. Dive bombing not so much - but that is what the MPC is there for, right?

 

... does that makes at least a little sense ...? :o)

Edited April 20, 2016 by Flagrum

[some1]

Auto release works for me, as long as I'm smooth with approach. I think one of the manuals mentions that the bombs are released at some arbitrary g's, so 20-30 dive while pushing the stick to keep the piper on target usually works fine.

 

Hitting the target is another matter. Last time I tried, no matter what I did in the training mission, bombs always overflew the target and hit behind it, despite keeping the piper directly on target.

[streakeagle]

The thing is, I had been flying the same mission over and over and could get it to drop every single time... now I can't.

[streakeagle]

OK, I just tried gently pushing over and using a much shallower dive... and it worked.

 

So which was it: the pushover or the shallower angle? will have to experiment to learn the limits. But after a night spent with not one single release and now getting a release on the first try... that is a big improvement :)

[streakeagle]

After repeated attempts with many failures, I can't say for sure what prevents the auto release from working... but it seems to depend primarily on the smoothness of the flying. Smoothly get on target, engage the electrical lock switch for some time, don't bounce around, release electrical lock, press weapon pickle... and wait. Dropped it pretty low sometimes. All successful auto releases appeared to be below 40 degrees and above 20 degrees dive. Sometimes, I hit my target exactly where I aimed, but very rarely.

[Flagrum]

Just another thought: watch the g-meter - I would guess, the g also makes a difference.

 

All what I said so far is just about the "mental picture" I have built in order to get a somewhat consistent understanding on what is going on. And with this I am more successful than with my earlier attempts. But I am, too, still far away from being 100% certain or even consistently successful with the automatic release. So take everything with a grain of salt here ...

 

But I would expect that different approaches result in different g loads at the point of (automatic) release. The pitch down attitude gets steeper when you keep the pipper on target - and thus the negative g load increases. So, I would expect that to happen, the faster you are when pushing over. And if the g load gets too far below 1.0, a secure separation of the weapon can not be guaranteed - and that might be one factor which prevents the automatic release.

 

(Hrm ... interesting idea ... have to check that theory by myself now as well, lol)

[streakeagle]

Smoothness = slow/low g. Gradual pitch changes. Start the dive far away, gradually pitch down on the target with a shallow 20-40 degree dive and enough room to hold the interlock a few seconds before trying to pickle. Generally, if I was close enough to the ground for the radar to already get a return, it was too late for an auto release. Most of my successful releases, the radar acquired the ground just after I released the interlock and started holding the pickle button.

[Holbeach]

The radar plays no part in the operation of the bomb sight.

 

It is for gun ranging only.

 

..

[anlq]

Anyone can recommend a step to make a good dive with correct angle (30 degree for example) ? I dive but I don't know where to start the dive for a good angle.

 

btw: I feel F86F guns are now weaker than before, doesn't it ?

[Art-J]

They might not be weaker per se, but nowadays they overheat and start spraying loose very quickly, making it very difficult to hit accurately after just a few short bursts.

[streakeagle]

The radar plays no part in the operation of the bomb sight.

 

It is for gun ranging only.

 

..

 

But the geometry for dropping depends on slant range and altitude... I stand by my statement: the geometry will be wrong and not allow a drop if I happen to be too close/low... which I can easily tell once my radar starts tracking the ground returns (with the gain knob cranked up to max range).

[Holbeach]

But the geometry for dropping depends on slant range and altitude... I stand by my statement: the geometry will be wrong and not allow a drop if I happen to be too close/low... which I can easily tell once my radar starts tracking the ground returns (with the gain knob cranked up to max range).

 

The sight is self contained and doesn't use any external input and that includes the radar. They're not accurate enough.

 

This set of videos shows the sight is on, in the first runs, because it's on by default, but the following runs at 25, 8 and zero degrees are all with the radar off. It is for gun ranging only.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=165597

..

[Art-J]

In F-86 and LN's MiG-21 one can turn radars on/off, change altimeter settings, drop on targets at seas level or mountain, and these planes will always "calculate" slant range correctly. One of the simplifications of DCS I guess.

[Holbeach]

In F-86 and LN's MiG-21 one can turn radars on/off, change altimeter settings, drop on targets at seas level or mountain, and these planes will always "calculate" slant range correctly. One of the simplifications of DCS I guess.

 

Both in real life and DCS, F-86 and Mig-21 don't use radar for their bomb sights.

It's not a simplification.

 

..

[SharpeXB]

In the bombing training mission I am only ever able to get the auto release to work on the first attack. Subsequent attacks always fail to release. I'm thinking it might be a bug related to unlimited ammo since that can get screwey. I'm not able to check the function in other

Missions since I can't figure out how to add bombs to the F-86 load out in the mission editor menu. All you get to choose is fuel tanks.

[Art-J]

That ain't right. Something seems to be iffy with Your install (mods interference?). For example, that's what You should be seeing in the loadout menu and "nothing" mission task in the latest 1.5.3 stable:

 

Edit: I also flew the tutorial mission again and the mechanism worked OK on second drop, so unlimited ammo doesn't seem to be the culprit of the problem.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Art-J

[SharpeXB]

Yeah, mine ilooks different. I'm using the Create Fast Mission

My task says CAS and isn't editable. The only load out option is fuel tanks.

[Art-J]

Wait, are You getting to loadout menu via Create Fast Mission -> Fly -> Mission Planner? Or Create Fast Mission -> Advanced -> Generate -> Edit Mission?

 

By default in DCS tasks (and thus loadout to some extent) will not be editable in former case, but will be fully editable in the latter. But as a veteran You probably know that (or maybe not, as You seem to be specialized in A-10C).

[Holbeach]

It might be easier to use the Instant Action bombing mission, which is ready to go.

 

..

[SharpeXB]

Wait, are You getting to loadout menu via Create Fast Mission -> Fly -> Mission Planner? Or Create Fast Mission -> Advanced -> Generate -> Edit Mission?

 

By default in DCS tasks (and thus loadout to some extent) will not be editable in former case, but will be fully editable in the latter. But as a veteran You probably know that (or maybe not, as You seem to be specialized in A-10C).

I see the difference, I'm using the Mission Planner at the bottom of the screen after clicking Fly, not the Mission Editor in the Fast Mission screen above. I've been doing DCS for many years but never use the Mission Editor.

[Art-J]

I don't own A-10, so I guess there's not much (if any) difference between both methods of choosing loadouts of this particular plane? As You can see, there are differences, however, with other planes (especially fighter-bomber ones), so I'd recommend using the second method - it's only two clicks longer, takes You to the similar screen but with more options to customize a mission!

 

That still doesn't explain why You're unsuccessful with second bomb release in tutorial mission, but now at least You can do some testing in Your own, custom ones.

[SharpeXB]

As far as I've seen on the other planes, they only have one load out screen

Then again, the F-15 and A-10C aren't multi role planes. So that's clearly the difference with the F-86. I found one of the included missions with a ground attack role and there's the bombs and rockets.

 

I found more sucess with the auto release by not rolling into the target so quickly. It seems like aggressive movements mess something up even though the sight is caged. By rolling in slowly I get the release to work much more often.

[fjacobsen]

It´s also necessary to keep the pipper on the target while keeping the elec. cage button pressed for a few seconds before releasing the elec. cage button.

At the same time - or slightly before releasing the elec. cage button - press and hold the weapons release button.

 

FinnJ

Edited June 8, 2016 by fjacobsen

[Art-J]

As far as I've seen on the other planes, they only have one load out screen

Then again, the F-15 and A-10C aren't multi role planes. So that's clearly the difference with the F-86. I found one of the included missions with a ground attack role and there's the bombs and rockets.

 

I found more sucess with the auto release by not rolling into the target so quickly. It seems like aggressive movements mess something up even though the sight is caged. By rolling in slowly I get the release to work much more often.

 

I see. Well, I don't own F-15 either, or any FC3 planes for that matter, but all warbirds, both Korean birds and MiG-21 feature multiple loadout screens depending on task type. That's why I'm used to getting to the screen via "advanced" mission option.

 

One thing about the sight that crossed my mind - I seem to recall from the real manual that the ballistic computing will not operate if there's no AC power available, which is easy to do when before entering a dive one reduces throttle and RPM a bit too much, thus disengaging generator. A factor to consider!