F-22 Raptor "sucks"

[GGTharos]

Given the instrumentation/datalink capability they have, they can (and do) do a little better than that.

 

It depends on the exercise rules. If the shooter meets certain parameter it's counted as a kill.

That's why using exercises to measure and aircraft superiority is not accurate

[GGTharos]

So the main objective of Red Flag is effective combat capabilites and high survivability to large force combined operations, which is something you can only teach by experience.

 

Most specifically it was found that a pilot's chance of success and survival increases quite a bit after he has survived his 10th battle. This is what the Red Flag and other exercises are intended to do, among other things. You get a much better pilot after they do a certain amount of specific battle exercises.

 

In the case of the Russians the training doctrine (and operational one) are quite different, although categorically stated as at least equivalent to NATO qualitively. My impressions are that increasing levels of competence in BFM are worked into a unit level awards system where it is more individualised in the west. For best combat preparation a Russian pilot might want to put himself on a waiting list transfer to a Guards unit, and operate in an aerobatics squadron for a time, if he wanted "to be the best fighter pilot in the world" and all that yank stuff we come to love/hate.

 

... What? Aerobatics don't make you better at BFM. They make your better at flying thundertip.

[RIPTIDE]

... What? Aerobatics don't make you better at BFM. They make your better at flying thundertip.

He didn't say that did he?. :music_whistling:

[Cali]

I saw a real life tacview of 4v4 (F-16's vs F-15's) when I was in Georgia a few years back. The 15's where in the mid 30's until they got close, but they were restricted to certain things to help the 16's. It was awesome hearing and seeing all the data on the screens. I wish I could have taken a video or pictures, but I wasn't allowed to.

[mvsgas]

Given the instrumentation/datalink capability they have, they can (and do) do a little better than that.

 

Like I said bud it depends on the exercise, but for the most part, that is what they do.

[StrongHarm]

I like to read on the speculation of the F22s capabilities.. it makes you wonder whether there's a gap like that between the ABRIS on the Blackshark and the iris recognition ATS on the Apache. Like helmet mounted HUD, 50nm+ FLIR auto stabilization and zoom, rear aspect lock and fire control, special medical systems that allow the pilot to meet the performance demands of the airframe. I speculate (as we civilians must) that there is a pretty big gap between the F-22 and everything else. Maybe one day we'll find out for sure. Until then, the F-22 will be the sexy aircraft the SR-71 used to be for me. No one can take away my fantasies of the jet next door.

[GGTharos]

To give you an idea, F-22's with no stealth (they were equipped with radar reflectors) with less experienced pilots faced off against a larger force of F-15C's with more experienced pilots. The F-15's did win, but with incredible losses.

 

For the last exercise, the reflectors were taken off. The F-15's never even knew what hit'em.

 

And if you ever somehow run into a debrief tape of F-15C's doing their thing, you'll see they're no slouches ...

 

As for medical stuff, no - IIRC the latest F-22 crashes are attributable to GLOC. The aircraft is just too powerful.

 

I like to read on the speculation of the F22s capabilities.. it makes you wonder whether there's a gap like that between the ABRIS on the Blackshark and the iris recognition ATS on the Apache. Like helmet mounted HUD, 50nm+ FLIR auto stabilization and zoom, rear aspect lock and fire control, special medical systems that allow the pilot to meet the performance demands of the airframe. I speculate (as we civilians must) that there is a pretty big gap between the F-22 and everything else. Maybe one day we'll find out for sure. Until then, the F-22 will be the sexy aircraft the SR-71 used to be for me. No one can take away my fantasies of the jet next door.

[LaRata]

Limitations keep F-22 from use in Libya ops

 

 

By Dave Majumdar - Staff writer

Posted : Tuesday Mar 22, 2011 18:22:15 EDT

 

One aircraft conspicuous by its absence over the skies of Libya is the Air Force’s vaunted F-22 Raptor air dominance fighter. The Lockheed Martin-built jet was likely benched due to its inability to communicate with other coalition aircraft and its limited ability to hit ground targets, analysts said.

 

“The designers of the F-22 had a dilemma, which is whether to have the connectivity that would allow versatility or to have the radio silence that would facilitate stealthiness. What they opted for was a limited set of tactical data links,” said Loren Thompson, an analyst and chief operating office at the Lexington Institute, Arlington Va.

 

The F-22 can only connect with other F-22s via an intraflight data link, and can only receive, but not transmit, over the standard Link-16 data link found on most allied aircraft.

 

Radio emissions from various data links could potentially give away the aircraft’s position, Thompson said.

 

As such, while the Raptor is the stealthiest operational aircraft in the world, it lacks much of the connectivity found on other warplanes, he said.

 

The aircraft also lacks a significant air-to-surface punch. Currently, the F-22 can only use two 1,000-pound Joint Direct Attack Munitions, which are GPS-guided bombs, against fixed targets. It does not yet have the ability to carry the 250-pound Small Diameter Bomb (SDB) or to create synthetic aperture radar maps, which are black and white photo-quality images of the Earth’s surface, needed to select its own ground targets. By contrast, an F-15E Strike Eagle can carry 24,000 pounds of ordnance.

 

Those capabilities will be available once the Increment 3.1 hardware and software upgrade is fielded into the operational Raptor fleet later this year. However, even with Increment 3.1 installed, the F-22 will only be able to designate two targets in total for the eight SDBs it would be able to carry. The operational test force has been putting Increment 3.1 through its paces at Nellis AFB, Nev., since November.

 

However, the addition of Increment 3.1 will not resolve the Raptor’s basic inability to connect with other aircraft, nor has the Air Force articulated a clear plan for the F-22 to do so. A future upgrade called Increment 3.2 was to have included the Multifunction Advanced Data-link (MADL) found on the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, however, the Air Force deleted funding for that data link last year.

 

The MADL is also planned for integration into the B-2, which would have enabled the entire Air Force stealth aircraft fleet to be connected during operations inside hostile airspace.

 

Further, it is only with the addition of Increment 3.2 that the Raptor would be able to independently retarget eight SDBs at eight separate targets.

 

Under the Air Force’s global strike task force doctrine, the Raptor would normally escort B-2 Spirit stealth bombers in “kicking down the door” of an enemy’s air defenses. However, U.S. Africa Command, which is running Operation Odyssey Dawn, confirmed the F-22 has not flown over Libya.

 

“I see no indication that F-22s were used as an escort for the B-2 nor do I see anything that indicates the Raptor will be used in future missions over Libya,” said Air Force Maj. Eric Hilliard, a spokesman for Africa Command.

 

On March 20, three B-2s flew bombing runs out of their base at Whiteman Air Force Base (AFB), Mo., against targets in Libya.

 

Analysts concurred that part of the reason for the absence of the Raptor is that it was not needed to defeat Libya’s relatively pedestrian air defenses. The Libyans have a largely obsolete fleet of aircraft and only older model Soviet surface-to-air weaponry.

 

“Frankly, they might not be needed. Libya’s defenses were not that robust to begin with and were rolled back quite handily,” said Mark Gunzinger, an analyst with the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Analysis, Washington.

 

“Libya is not generally considered a highly capable adversary,” Thompson added.

 

Gunzinger said that the B-2s probably flew at night, which would eliminate any chance of the billion-dollar warplane being spotted visually by the enemy. The large subsonic aircraft could be potentially vulnerable if it was seen, which is why it would be escorted by high performance stealth fighters like the F-22 if it was flying against a more challenging foe such as Iran or North Korea, Thompson said. "

 

The F-22 still need More time ...

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/03/defense-f22-raptor-absent-from-libya-ops-032211/

 

 

LaRata

[mvsgas]

:D I'm sure that is the reason the 22 did not play. Nothing to do with the million other logistical things, it has to be because the aircraft is not capable to talk to others. Nothing to do with finding facilities, moving support personnel and equipment, allocating Tankers and cargo aircraft. Setting proper security and acquiring permissions from host countries. Nothing to do with the fact that there are assets closer, requiring less resources and more than able to complete all task for plan mission.

 

Te aseguro que esa no es la rason. Bueno, que yo sepa.

 

PS

I have ever seen a USAF carry a MK83, not saying it can't happen, I'm not saying it doesn't happen nor am I saying it won't, simply saying I have never seen it.

 

No tienes que creer lo que digo, buscalo en la net.

Edited March 24, 2011 by mvsgas

[Cali]

 

As for medical stuff, no - IIRC the latest F-22 crashes are attributable to GLOC. The aircraft is just too powerful.

 

All jets are too powerful :D

[EtherealN]

All jets are too powerful :D

 

 

:D

[GGTharos]

You really shouldn't be showing them screenshots of the next module ... :D

[Cali]

 

:D

 

I said jets :D I've seen mosquitoes bigger then that.

 

You really shouldn't be showing them screenshots of the next module ... :D

 

Now people are gonna want to see more screenshots and ask how is the flight model.

[lomcevac]

That IS a jet. Twin engine. What do you think those things in front are? Eye stalks? :music_whistling::smartass:

[Grimes]

Now people are gonna want to see more screenshots and ask how is the flight model.

 

Well it does have a nice bubble canopy giving the pilot massive field of view. I'd say the pilot in that thing can see more around his aircraft than an F-16 pilot. :music_whistling:

[RvETito]

Problems with F-22's oxygen system - till the investigation ends the operational ceiling has been limited to 25000 ft.

 

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=6041977&c=AIR&s=AMEurl

[nscode]

So it doesn't really suck. It just doesn't blow enough (oxygen) :D

[zakobi]

So it doesn't really suck. It just doesn't blow enough (oxygen) :D

 

:doh: :megalol:

[Pilotasso]

Every plane gets blown in some way. F-22's get blown with oxygen while migs get to be blown up. :D

[nscode]

No MiG was blown inside warranty period :)

[FLANKERATOR]

No MiG was blown inside warranty period :)

 

couldn't give you more rep :thumbup:

[mvsgas]

No MiG was blown inside warranty period :)

 

:D:smartass: Of course not, since they don't fly and stay in storage for years, you have to use it to be able to know if it works. :joystick::thumbup:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Russia---Air/Mikoyan-Gurevich-MiG-29-%289-12%29/1686208/L/

[nscode]

That's not storage. That's Burger King :)

[RIPTIDE]

That's not storage. That's Burger King :)

HAHAhHAhahahh :megalol:

[mvsgas]

:D