F-22 Raptor "sucks"

[StrongHarm]

F-22 coming to DCS? Don't discount it so easily.

 

I loved reading through this thread and seeing all the arm chair warriors speak about this aircraft's problems and weaknesses with such certainty... spouting statistics and talking about which aircraft are better.

 

Here's a reality check: the SR-71 was built in the late 50s by some of the same people. The F-15 was introduced in the early 70s and has a perfect kill record. The Raptor was built with more R&D and higher platform demands than any aircraft in history. It is so beyond kicking the crap out of everything in the sky. Just period.

[Pilotasso]

F-22 for DCS is pretty much of the question, says ED.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

The F-15 was introduced in the early 70s and has a perfect kill record.

F-15 has never fought against an aircraft of the same class. F-15 have often had numerical advantage over lower generation/lower class of aircraft it fought. F-15 often had tactical advantage (AWACS) over lower class aircraft it fought. And yes, F-15 is really good aircraft, and was probably the best air superiority fighter for a while. But one must put its success into a proper perspective.

[StrongHarm]

Built in the 70s with no losses is proper perspective I believe. Which brings my point of how superior an Aircraft built in the 90s by some of the same minds would be.

[Frostie]

Billy was the best mint sucker in his village having beaten every granny that challenged him, did this make him better than anyone? No.

 

The Sea Harrier is undefeated in A2A combat having a lot of kills with no losses, does this make it one of the best A2A platforms ever built? No.

 

The majority of F-15 kills are by Israeli pilots shooting down MiG-21's, not really an outstanding achievment that warrants praise ranking it unbeatable. More like the right aircraft in the right place, im sure there are plenty of other platforms that could have performed this job just as well.

 

The F-22 is probably the most advanced platform on the planet, but labeling it unbeatable and able to kick the crap out of everything else in the sky is something for the kids to shout over. Other aircraft excel in some departments, while the F-22 has the advantage in most the reality is a whole lot more complex than this.

[rattler]

Best aircraft for today is the F-18 super hornet coming in at No.1 for it's generation, which is now. the P-51 Mustang is No.1 for it's day and is still considered a pilots aircraft for those fortunate to fly what is remaining today. It did everything and did it well. The F-22 with all it's technology etc. should be one of the best but has never been flown in combat, hence NO rating on the all 10 list. The F-18 super hornet is todays No.1. The rest is just speculation as they have never been flown as I said in combat situations. You have to be tested in the conditions before the honors are bestowed and that goes for the Typhoon and others of it's class. No combat experience = speculation. That's how it works folks. and that's how the aviation community views it. No fight no rate.:music_whistling:. Before the Harrier crowed jumps in, yes it performed extremely well but in the end it has it's problems which make it I believe either No.2 or 3 in todays world as it has been tested in combat.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Built in the 70s with no losses is proper perspective I believe.

You have a right to believe. Flanker also does not have any loses.

[rattler]

You have a right to believe. Flanker also does not have any loses.

 

The aviation experts that contribute to making up the all time best combat aircraft list have other criteria that they use to come up with the list of aircraft. There were a couple of early Soviet aircraft and I believe one was a Mig used in Korea and I can't remember the other, just that there were 2 that made the list but the flanker was not one. Like I said to make the list lots of things are taken into consideration, not just a win or lose situation, they evaluate all the aircrafts performances and pilot input as well. Cheers.

 

 

Pete

[Cali]

F-15 has never fought against an aircraft of the same class. F-15 have often had numerical advantage over lower generation/lower class of aircraft it fought. F-15 often had tactical advantage (AWACS) over lower class aircraft it fought. And yes, F-15 is really good aircraft, and was probably the best air superiority fighter for a while. But one must put its success into a proper perspective.

 

Why would one start or enter a war knowing it has old outdated stuff. Even though Iraq had a very good IADS it still didn't matter once comm went down. They were firing blind into the air hoping to hit something. Yes the F-15 haven't went against a aircraft like it, but you have to take training into account. Yes they have AWACS, but isn't it there for help win wars. Some countries have more advance things some don't. Before you start a war...think about that stuff before hand. A kill is a kill, no matter how you look at it......agree?

[FLANKERATOR]

"Best fighter in the world" is a name given to the raptor since it entered service in the USAF. It still have to prove itself as such in actual combat.

IMO, praising performances and characteristics or flying simulated combats exercises has nothing to do with real conflict confrontation.

There are F-22 fans but also experts with very serious anti-raptor analysis.

[RIPTIDE]

I await Karlo Kopp's analysis of this outrage.

[GGTharos]

The USAF would disagree with you.

 

IMO, praising performances and characteristics or flying simulated combats exercises has nothing to do with real conflict confrontation.

[aaron886]

There are F-22 fans but also experts with very serious anti-raptor analysis.

 

But WHERE ARE THEY NOW???? :D

 

 

I await Karlo Kopp's analysis of this outrage.

 

:megalol:

[FLANKERATOR]

@Riptide: You can wait forever then, or even better make your own analysis, maybe you will do better than Karlo Kopp ;)

 

@aaron: ON THE INTERNET, GO AND FIND BY YOURSELF :D you just have to dare use key words other than "best fighter in the world" ROFL.

 

@GG: many of the anti-raptor reports come from the USAF itself.

Edited March 5, 2011 by FLANKERATOR

[mvsgas]

I lost track after page ten, but some thing I'm wondering;

Has the SU-27 ( or other type aircraft based on the SU-27 e.i. SU-30,SU-33, etc) been used in combat? Where? A2A or A2G or both?

How many hour does the average pilots fly in SU-27 and or variants? (China, N. Korea, Vietnam, etc)

[GGTharos]

The USAF would still disagree with you :D

 

@GG: many of the anti-raptor reports come from the USAF itself.

[GGTharos]

Su-27S or P in Eritrea/Ethiopia where they sent MiG-29's packing. As well, they were used in the fight against Chechnya in the A2G role - I believe those were SMs. I think there may have been a couple over Georgia as well.

 

Has the SU-27 ( or other type aircraft based on the SU-27 e.i. SU-30,SU-33, etc) been used in combat? Where? A2A or A2G or both?

How many hour does the average pilots fly in SU-27 and or variants? (China, N. Korea, Vietnam, etc)

[FLANKERATOR]

The USAF would still disagree with you :D

 

Irrelevant :D

[LaRata]

More Computer Sim_Combat ...

 

Nice propaganda . . .Us need to release real combat exenario like F-15 vs Indian SU-30MKI :)

 

LaRata

[Cali]

More Computer Sim_Combat ...

 

Nice propaganda . . .Us need to release real combat exenario like F-15 vs Indian SU-30MKI :)

 

LaRata

 

If everyone is allowed to use everything at their disposal.........F-15=wins

[revalence]

If everyone is allowed to use everything at their disposal.........F-15=wins

 

True.

At "Cope India" exercises in 2004, F-15 vs. SU-30MKIs, the US decided NOT to use AIM-120s. The Indians won most of the engagements.

At Red Flag 2008, however, they did, and they ultimately bested the SU-30MKIs.

Edited March 8, 2011 by revalence

[Cali]

Also, I think the USAF might want the 15's to not look so hot......if you know what I mean....

[LARGE]

True.

At "Cope India" exercises in 2004, F-15 vs. SU-30MKIs, the US decided NOT to use AIM-120s.

At Red Flag 2008, however, they did, and they ultimately bested the SU-30MKIs.

 

I was wondering.. how things like red flag happen? I mean, how do they know if the plane is downed or not? You say they used AIM-120s? Does it make a difference what missiles are mounted if they dont really fire em? Or they fire a real missile at the plane or what?

[mvsgas]

I was wondering.. how things like red flag happen? I mean, how do they know if the plane is downed or not? You say they used AIM-120s? Does it make a difference what missiles are mounted if they dont really fire em? Or they fire a real missile at the plane or what?

 

It depends on the exercise rules. If the shooter meets certain parameter it's counted as a kill.

That's why using exercises to measure and aircraft superiority is not accurate

[vanir]

Yeah the Red Flag documentary says it's mostly about learning to work with combat related combined operational procedures without having accidents which is what the exercise is all about.

 

Usually pilots are in combat the first time they function as part of strategic sized combined operations and it not only robs a lot of SA but results in a lot of non-combat losses during the early phase of any engagement historically.

 

So the main objective of Red Flag is effective combat capabilites and high survivability to large force combined operations, which is something you can only teach by experience.

 

Most BFM are a part of regular training against aggressors, and dissimilar training doesn't need wargames, again regular pilot curriculum at various stages of career.

In the case of the Russians the training doctrine (and operational one) are quite different, although categorically stated as at least equivalent to NATO qualitively. My impressions are that increasing levels of competence in BFM are worked into a unit level awards system where it is more individualised in the west. For best combat preparation a Russian pilot might want to put himself on a waiting list transfer to a Guards unit, and operate in an aerobatics squadron for a time, if he wanted "to be the best fighter pilot in the world" and all that yank stuff we come to love/hate.