Russian Carrier Ops Question

[Colt40Five]

Decided to make a mission pack for the Su-33, and have hit a snag...The only thing that can operate from the Kutz is the 33?? No A/C with SEAD/Ground Attack capability?? I thought there was a navalized Su-25? Is there any way to have non-Su-33 AI A/C operate off the Kutz?

[S77th-konkussion]

Yeah the "UTG" with A.F.M. would kick some serious a.z.z.

[GGTharos]

Decided to make a mission pack for the Su-33, and have hit a snag...The only thing that can operate from the Kutz is the 33?? No A/C with SEAD/Ground Attack capability?? I thought there was a navalized Su-25? Is there any way to have non-Su-33 AI A/C operate off the Kutz?

 

The only other fixed wing AC that I know of is the Su-25UTG. It is a two-seat trainer, and is not used for combat. There is the MiG-29K, but the Kuznetsov was never equipped with those.

 

So no, no AC with SEAD/A2G. That's not the Kuznetsov's purpose, and that's why those aircraft are not there. The Kuznetsov's purpose was strictly to provide an air superiority umbrella for its submarine fleet against enemy anti-submarine aircraft.

[Colt40Five]

well that sux...

[Disso]

Well that's how it is in real life.

 

In game, in addition to the Su33, you can put the Ka-27 Helix on the carrier. Not sure how much that'll help your campaign though..

 

[Alfa]

Decided to make a mission pack for the Su-33, and have hit a snag...The only thing that can operate from the Kutz is the 33?? No A/C with SEAD/Ground Attack capability?? I thought there was a navalized Su-25? Is there any way to have non-Su-33 AI A/C operate off the Kutz?

 

No as already mentioned, the navalised Su-25(Su-25UTG) is a two-seat trainer that has no combat capabilities what so ever.

 

In 1991 the Russians had two multirole naval fighters in development - the MiG-29K and the Yak-41(VSTOL). The development effort for the Yak-41 was suspended after a crash onboard the Admiral Gorshkov on October 5th 1991 and was never resumed. The MiG-29K, on the other hand, passed its state acceptance trials(along with the Su-33) onboard the Admiral Kuznetov and was ordered by the Soviet MOD. But with the collapse of the Soviet Union that same year, the order was later cancelled.

 

Here is a photo from those state acceptance trials - which BTW took place in the Black Sea :)

 

So the MiG-29K could easilly be operated from the Kuznetsov and was meant for this, but the post-Soviet economic reality prevented it. Currently the Kuznetsov embark the following aircraft types:

 

Combat:

 

* Su-33 for airsuperiority

* Ka-27PL for anti-submarine warfare

 

Support:

 

* Ka-29RLD(also known as "Ka-31") for early warning

* Ka-27PS for search & rescue

* Su-25UTG for pilot training

 

The MiG-29K is still alive though - it has been ordered(in a refined and updated version) by the Indian navy and is due for delivery some time next year.

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Disso]

Do you mind further disclosing what happened in that incident of the Yak-41?

[weasel75]

On the other hand - the Su-33 can carry a limited amount of bombs.

Sure - it is not suited for CAS n stuff, but maybe it can be used to blow up some bridges or bunkers?

[Force_Feedback]

Do you mind further disclosing what happened in that incident of the Yak-41?

 

See for yourself: http://www.zvezda-npp.ru/video/5.wmv

 

The pilot ejected post landing, out of the fireball.

[Alfa]

Do you mind further disclosing what happened in that incident of the Yak-41?

 

I cannot remember exactly what the cause of the crash was, but during a hover it fell some 12 m or so on to the deck of the Admiral Gorshkov, was seriously damaged and caught fire - the pilot survived without injuries though :) .

 

IIRC the aircraft was later repaired, but the incident marked the end of further development of the type. I don't think the crash itself was the cause, but just the latest in a series of problems and set-backs that ultimately convinced the Soviet MOD to call it off.

 

The development of VSTOL aircraft is always going to be more complex and costly than conventional take-off types, so it might very well be that the decision was taken in light of the more successful MiG-29K trials. That is - the MiG-29K is roughly the same size as the Yak-41 and developed for the same multirole purpose, but the MiG-29K is much more capable "hands down" - in terms of speed, manouvrability and fuel/payload capability.

 

The only merit of the Yak-41 over the MiG-29K was the VSTOL capability - but apart from being the very cause of the problems, the development of the ski-jump and the switch to larger aviation cruiser designs would also have made the VSTOL capability a less important feature.

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Alfa]

See for yourself: http://www.zvezda-npp.ru/video/5.wmv

 

The pilot ejected post landing, out of the fireball.

 

Wow! - I have never seen that footage before. The crash itself didn't look quite as violent as the impression you get from written accounts of the accident.....the resulting fire, on the other hand, certainly does :shocking:.

 

Thanks for posting :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Cosmonaut]

Looked like a pretty good landing. Maybe after they investigated the crash they discovered a fatal flaw that would have been to costly to fix so they just cancelled the project..

[Disso]

My God that explosion looked extremely exadurated, in respect to the actual impact. Though the sudden drop is easily visible, the impact itself didn't really seem it was heavy enough to suddenly create such a massive fireball! Wow!

 

Anyway, The accident itself was only a contributing factor in addition to the lack of funds and the breakup of the Soviet Union which doomed this project.

[nscode]

Heh... just another ejection seat comercial :)

[Cosmonaut]

I can see the drop but I’ve seen 747s hit the runway harder without causing any damage, surly an Aircraft designed for carrier opps would be able take that slightly heavy landing.. Unless the Yak-41 carries its fuel in the tires ;) then I cant see why it exploded so dramatically.

 

Just curious but is it the Yak-41 that had the automatic ejection seat?

[Force_Feedback]

Heh... just another ejection seat comercial :)

 

Why did you think I was whining about the Zvezda site? ;)

 

K-36 teh greatest thing ever made, sks-94 comes close, and is more affordable

[Force_Feedback]

Just curious but is it the Yak-41 that had the automatic ejection seat?

 

Yes, like the Yak-36, 36M and 38, the Yak 41 uses the Zvezda K-36VL in its latest modification, and is equipped with an automatic jection system while in hover or taransition. The yak 41 has a digital auto ejection system, more objectively deceiding the ejection moment.

The auto ejection system is needed because of the use of lift jet engines, similar to the lift-fan on the F-35B, should they fail, will not balance the thrust of the main engine, causing a very high forward pitch moment. In such situation, the descision time is around 0.5 seconds, after that ejection has no use... And since no human can make that decision in that time, an autmated, through the canopy ejection system will make it for the pilot.

 

In normal flight, if the pilot is ejecting at higher speeds than 200 kph, the canopy is jettisoned first.

[DPS]

Thanks for the video, Force Feedback.

 

If Colt40Five needs SEAD he will have to get another unit to do it. Still makes for interesting campaigns though, as the Su-33 will have to arrive in the target area on time - too early and the enemy's SAMs will get you.

[Alfa]

My God that explosion looked extremely exadurated, in respect to the actual impact. Though the sudden drop is easily visible, the impact itself didn't really seem it was heavy enough to suddenly create such a massive fireball! Wow!

 

Anyway, The accident itself was only a contributing factor in addition to the lack of funds and the breakup of the Soviet Union which doomed this project.

 

I read somewhere that the drop to the deck was violent enought to cause the landing gear to "shoot" through the airframe and puncture the fueltanks.....so there is the explanation for the fireball :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[nscode]

Yes, like the Yak-36, 36M and 38, the Yak 41 uses the Zvezda K-36VL in its latest modification, and is equipped with an automatic jection system while in hover or taransition. The yak 41 has a digital auto ejection system, more objectively deceiding the ejection moment.

The auto ejection system is needed because of the use of lift jet engines, similar to the lift-fan on the F-35B, should they fail, will not balance the thrust of the main engine, causing a very high forward pitch moment. In such situation, the descision time is around 0.5 seconds, after that ejection has no use... And since no human can make that decision in that time, an autmated, through the canopy ejection system will make it for the pilot.

 

In normal flight, if the pilot is ejecting at higher speeds than 200 kph, the canopy is jettisoned first.

 

Do the stick and throtle go out too, or do they stay in the cockpit... with your hands :D

[Force_Feedback]

Do the stick and throtle go out too, or do they stay in the cockpit... with your hands :D

 

You know why the K-36 is so good at high speeds too? Well, besides the Mach shield, it also has arm restraints in the form of 'armrests' that are lowered in the beginning, and push the elbows inwards, after the parachute pack (headrest) has fired, the 'armrests' unclamp, and return to the upward position.

 

So, wether the pilot wants it, or not, his hands will be kept out of harms way, and his legs strapped very tightly and raised.

The 'armrests' make use of the elbow joint physiology (They thought about that at Zvezda for sure, they didn't start placing nets or restrictive cable straps), the elbow joints allow for movement in one plane, while the shoulder joints are '3d'. Well, just for fun, sit against your chair (provided you can rest your back against it), and see how much your arms can move when you squeeze your elbows to your body ;)

 

Same goes for leg restraints, Martin Baker was very proud of their 'flightsuit with wires', requiring the pilot to attatch pieces of cord, that is attatched to their trousers, to the ejection seat, so that the legs can be strapped against the seat during an ejection. The Zvezda designers just used a passive system, basically a large pedded loop, sitting loosely against the pedal wells. No straps, or special G-suits needed, no hassle for the pilot, just sit, and fly. Same goes for the helmet, British and American helmets have often a clear visor, especially in MDC canopy lining equipped aircraft. This to ensure no eye injury will occur during ejection. The Soviet version was a little powder charge to slam the sun visor down on ejection. No obstruction from the clear visor during normal ops, full protection on ejection phase. No development costs for 99% transparant visors or something like that.

Same applies to the helmet itself, some western helmets have special aerodynamic coatings, and plastic patterns to smoothen the airflow over the helmet (and potential neck injury). The Soviets just used holes to create vorticies (ok, I admit, some research was done before such thing was discovered and put to use) to disturb the lift, pulling the helmet up, straining the neck.

 

Reminds me of that Yak-36 story. When the Yak-36 was new, western experts speculated about the VTOL control system, thinking it had some kind of sophisticated automated system, to keep that thing in the air.

Turns out the engineers used like 6 mechanical linkages, and everything worked just the way it was designed :P

[britgliderpilot]

You know why the K-36 is so good at high speeds too? Well, besides the Mach shield, it also has arm restraints in the form of 'armrests' that are lowered in the beginning, and push the elbows inwards, after the parachute pack (headrest) has fired, the 'armrests' unclamp, and return to the upward position.

 

So, wether the pilot wants it, or not, his hands will be kept out of harms way, and his legs strapped very tightly and raised.

The 'armrests' make use of the elbow joint physiology (They thought about that at Zvezda for sure, they didn't start placing nets or restrictive cable straps), the elbow joints allow for movement in one plane, while the shoulder joints are '3d'. Well, just for fun, sit against your chair (provided you can rest your back against it), and see how much your arms can move when you squeeze your elbows to your body ;)

 

Same goes for leg restraints, Martin Baker was very proud of their 'flightsuit with wires', requiring the pilot to attatch pieces of cord, that is attatched to their trousers, to the ejection seat, so that the legs can be strapped against the seat during an ejection. The Zvezda designers just used a passive system, basically a large pedded loop, sitting loosely against the pedal wells. No straps, or special G-suits needed, no hassle for the pilot, just sit, and fly. Same goes for the helmet, British and American helmets have often a clear visor, especially in MDC canopy lining equipped aircraft. This to ensure no eye injury will occur during ejection. The Soviet version was a little powder charge to slam the sun visor down on ejection. No obstruction from the clear visor during normal ops, full protection on ejection phase. No development costs for 99% transparant visors or something like that.

Same applies to the helmet itself, some western helmets have special aerodynamic coatings, and plastic patterns to smoothen the airflow over the helmet (and potential neck injury). The Soviets just used holes to create vorticies (ok, I admit, some research was done before such thing was discovered and put to use) to disturb the lift, pulling the helmet up, straining the neck.

 

Reminds me of that Yak-36 story. When the Yak-36 was new, western experts speculated about the VTOL control system, thinking it had some kind of sophisticated automated system, to keep that thing in the air.

Turns out the engineers used like 6 mechanical linkages, and everything worked just the way it was designed :P

 

I love the Russians!

 

 

For some reason that post inspires nostalgia for the Aviation forum at the Ubi Lomac forums . . . . . how long ago does that feel? :P