future functionalities in M2000C

[npole]

But it doesn't make any sense to try to find artificial balance if you want to be realistic. There is no balance in the real world. Planes were designed to be better than their counterparts or the previous generation. Missiles too.

 

I didn't asked for this.. I was replying to those ones believing that the Mirage is on pair with the FC3 fighters in MP, that is wrong, no matter from which side you look at it.

I have no problem with it.. when I want to dominate, I use a F-15C or a Su27.. when I want to have a more realistic flight, I switch to the other modules I have (including the Mirage...).

[mattebubben]

This was a session of mine (CrashOverDrive) in the 104th a few nights ago. It's not a real economical KD ratio (slightly above 1)..tax payers are not going to like me :music_whistling:

 

But against a force consisting of mainly F15's and Su-27's, it shows the Mirage can certainly hold her own. As long you can play her strengths. Fly low and fast on radar standby, fly towards targets at your RWR. Turn on radar and try to close the gap while flying on TWS. When in range, pop up. Switch to STT and fire immediately.

I almost always hit my targets. It's only after my initial target is dead.. I'm usually screwed, because I'm always waaaay behind enemy lines by the time I pop up..

 

Well dont you see this picture actually proves his point in his mind. ^^

 

Since there you are with 9-8 and then the Su-33 below you have 6-1

and the Su-27 5-2

 

So that proves the Su-33 and Su-27 are better.

 

Right?

Right?

 

The Mirage 2000C is a great module and i love it to bits and i dont hesitate to attack any target i see with confidence.

 

Sure if i get locked up by a enemy or launched on i will flee in true french fashion :smartass:.

 

But i will always be back once the missile has been evaded.

 

And when i come back i return with a vengeance.

 

And i love playing sneaky with it as its easy to sneak up on enemies.

 

Especially Su-27s and Mig-29s as they have less advanced RWR displays.

(one massive advantage the M2000 has over the Russian FC-3 fighters)

 

Personally i think the TWS and RWR of the Mirage 2000 more then outweighs any disadvantage when it comes to number of weapons compared to the Su-27/Mig-29

 

as you just have so much better SA etc.

[npole]

This was a session of mine (CrashOverDrive) in the 104th a few nights ago. It's not a real economical KD ratio (slightly above 1)..tax payers are not going to like me :music_whistling:

 

But against a force consisting of mainly F15's and Su-27's, it shows the Mirage can certainly hold her own. As long you can play her strengths. Fly low and fast on radar standby, fly towards targets at your RWR. Turn on radar and try to close the gap while flying on TWS. When in range, pop up. Switch to STT and fire immediately.

I almost always hit my targets. It's only after my initial target is dead.. I'm usually screwed, because I'm always waaaay behind enemy lines by the time I pop up..

 

I don't know at which hours you played and the skill of pilots in that session and for how long, so looking at you with 9 kills and 8 death, while looking at the F15's with 1 kill and 0 death.. I can only guess that you stayed on the server for long, while they have just joined.

A parte the UVP guy, I don't recognize the other names... the screen is a little blurred.

Also the 1-1 (almost) ratio evidences a suicide mission: let's go to the enemy airport to get at least one kill, then who cares if I get shot down as well.

I don't like to play this way, I normally return back to rearm and refill.

 

Thanks for your explanation, but this is happening when you face a less skilled player, if you try to do the same with someone at equal skill as you with a FC3 fighter, you will be death long before because he has a better awareness and better weapons: you can hide, he can hide as well, you can seek and shot, he can seek and shot BEFORE, because his engagement range is larger than yours.

Do you really believe that you can popup anywhere near to me with a M2000 without me not noticing it? It's not happening... it's not happened so far, and not because I'm the most skilled player in the world, but because the F-15 is superior, it's much easier for me to: track you, lock you, and shot you... nor that you can't do the same, but it's easier for me (because of the plane) that's why I will perform better than you.

[npole]

Personally i think the TWS and RWR of the Mirage 2000 more then outweighs any disadvantage when it comes to number of weapons compared to the Su-27/Mig-29

 

But then there's the radar: the FC3 fighters radars are "arcade".. I mean they can track the S* out of you from miles (more than 40nm) away and hole the jammers and STT by spamming the TDS, you don't even need the RWR, most of the times with the 15 you can have the enemy position directly on the HUD.

Then we wanna talk about the dogfight modes? In vertical mode, it's like playing LockOn: the enemy aircraft is being picked and locked anywhere within 10nm, even if it is flying at a side... while with the Mirage, sometime you have the enemy in visual range and the radar isn't picking anything.

With this big advantages, do you really care about the RWR? After have localized the approx position of the enemy, you can pop you head out of the hills, do a 180° scan in vmode, and here's all the bandits on your hud ready to be shot down, one by one (and you don't have just four pem pem, but eight! ...but this is another story).

[QuiGon]

But then there's the radar: the FC3 fighters radars are "arcade".. I mean they can track the S* out of you from miles (more than 40nm) away and hole the jammers and STT by spamming the TDS, you don't even need the RWR, most of the times with the 15 you can have the enemy position directly on the HUD.

Then we wanna talk about the dogfight modes? In vertical mode, it's like playing LockOn: the enemy aircraft is being picked and locked anywhere within 10nm, even if it is flying at a side... while with the Mirage, sometime you have the enemy in visual range and the radar isn't picking anything.

With this big advantages, do you really care about the RWR? After have localized the approx position of the enemy, you can pop you head out of the hills, do a 180° scan in vmode, and here's all the bandits on your hud ready to be shot down, one by one (and you don't have just four pem pem, but eight! ...but this is another story).

 

Looks like you haven't flown the Mirage much after the last update, because I really don't know how you have made such bad experiences with the Mirage radar unless they are not very recent ones. Since the last update the Mirage radar is performing very well and reliable. What you say about the F-15 radar is all stuff I can do with the Mirage radar as well. It's just the weapons that are inferior (no ARH missiles, low numbers). And the RWR is very useful for SA, regardless if you fly the F-15 or the Mirage 2000, because it warns you about (pop up) contacts that are outside of the radar scan zone. Even the mighty F-15 does not have a 360°-AWACS-like radar...

Edited June 8, 2016 by QuiGon

[3rd Wing - Raiden]

And something general: The M2000 is not a mod. It is an official DLC/module for DCS. Saying it is just a mod might be a bit insulting given all the hard work RAZBAM put in this module ;)

 

Thank you !!! Something was breaking inside me each time I was reading it !

[nomdeplume]

Thank you !!! Something was breaking inside me each time I was reading it !

I just kept telling myself that "mod" was their abbreviation for "module". ;)

[3rd Wing - Raiden]

Sure if i get locked up by a enemy or launched on i will flee in true french fashion :smartass:.

 

Nothing personal here but it's not the first time you kind of do french bashing. Man it's annoying and not even funny.

 

I'm pretty sure you know recent events have proven the French to be very effective in doing war. So please enought with "The French only knows how to surrender".

Edited June 8, 2016 by 3rd Wing - Raiden

[jojo]

Sure if i get locked up by a enemy or launched on i will flee in true french fashion :smartass:.

.

I know it's a joke, but it's a bad one, and offensive to the roughly 100 000 men who died fighting in just one month in 1940.

Amongst other thing they died in Dunkerque to allow the British (who didn't performed better than our troops BTW) to pack their things and go back home.

Ok that's the end of it for me.

 

BVR:

Tests show that:

- all DCS fighters have the same burn through range on the same target.

So a F-15 will burn through F-16 jammer at the same range as a MiG 29 for instance.

- Burn through range on fighters targets is most of the time equal or greater than AA missiles range (with the slight exception of R-27ER, but shooting it at max range is wasting it).

 

IMHO that burn through range on fighters is too great, it's ruining the interest of ECM, and giving the same burn through range to every radar equipped fighters is denying the differences in technology in each of them.

 

So it's not Mirage specific, but that's one of the reasons why currently Mirage's pilot have to sneak into mountains to survive.

That's a reason why a Su 27 pilot may prefer a pair of extra R-73 rather than a pair of jammers.

A smaller burn through range would make the fight more interesting for everyone...

 

@npole:

You've made your point : A F-15C with 6 Fox 3 + 2 Fox 2 is superior to a M-2000C with 2 Fox 1 + 2 Fox 2.

No one is denying that, so what ?

It would be the same for MiG 29A (as I suppose MiG 29S pilots play it with R-77).

It's the problem of Fox 1 Vs Fox 3 fight.

 

If you want to make it more interesting play Gulf War 1 weapon load: AIM-7, AIM-9, at the most a pair of AIM-120B to mimic the AIM-120A (but if it was deployed it seems it wasn't used there).

[Fri13]

I said they weren't available in the 80s, but what we have in DCS are more recent versions of the F-15 and Su-27 which do have them. Just our DCS Mirage is an 80s version that does not has modern active missiles like MICA. So nothing wrong here.

 

The Su-27 in DCS is Su-27S, that is the first model of Su-27 family that wasn't prototype. And if I remember correctly, it was even Su-27SK, what is a Su-27S export version to China.

 

F-15C is superior to Su-27S by being two variants newer.

 

What many would want, is that Su-27S gets updated to Su-27SM, and it would give many benefits for it and bring it up to F-15C level.

 

The Mirage 2000C is newer than the Su-27S is, just with different purpose than Su-27S was designed for. If we would get Su-27SM, then Mirage 2000C would be inferior as Su-27SM would have R-77 support. And few years ago it was said (rumored or so) that we are getting Su-27SM, and it means heavily upgraded cockpit (3 MFD) and R-77 support and other nice things.

 

The Mirage 2000C just needs to be flied like it was designed to be....

[QuiGon]

The Su-27 in DCS is Su-27S, that is the first model of Su-27 family that wasn't prototype. And if I remember correctly, it was even Su-27SK, what is a Su-27S export version to China.

 

F-15C is superior to Su-27S by being two variants newer.

 

What many would want, is that Su-27S gets updated to Su-27SM, and it would give many benefits for it and bring it up to F-15C level.

 

The Mirage 2000C is newer than the Su-27S is, just with different purpose than Su-27S was designed for. If we would get Su-27SM, then Mirage 2000C would be inferior as Su-27SM would have R-77 support. And few years ago it was said (rumored or so) that we are getting Su-27SM, and it means heavily upgraded cockpit (3 MFD) and R-77 support and other nice things.

 

The Mirage 2000C just needs to be flied like it was designed to be....

 

You're right, I'm not very familiar with the FC3 birds, except the F-15. For some reason I thought the DCS Su-27 is using the R-77, but it is the MiG-29 that has it, right?

[npole]

Looks like you haven't flown the Mirage much after the last update, because I really don't know how you have made such bad experiences with the Mirage radar unless they are not very recent ones. Since the last update the Mirage radar is performing very well and reliable. What you say about the F-15 radar is all stuff I can do with the Mirage radar as well. It's just the weapons that are inferior (no ARH missiles, low numbers). And the RWR is very useful for SA, regardless if you fly the F-15 or the Mirage 2000, because it warns you about (pop up) contacts that are outside of the radar scan zone. Even the mighty F-15 does not have a 360°-AWACS-like radar...

 

The radar of the Mirage is so reliable that it loses the target randomly in TWS... :) ..it's a recognized bug, but it is a bug (that will be fixed) so I'm not moaning much about it.

I'm more talking about the radar performance (in visualizing the targets and manage to hole the ECM, and the cone scanning size) if compared with the F-15C one.

As I said, with the performance of the close combat mode on the FC3 fighters, I don't even need the RWR, the radar keeps and lock everything in range by just moving the nose left and right.

 

It cannot compete with the FC3 fighters... you can manage to have nice fights, you can still have fun etc... we all agree, it's designed for other purposes, but online forget to have the same K/D of a F15 or a Su27, and I'm not saying that the fun is just about the scores or kill ratio, I'm just specifying a fact. I'm still having fun with my beloved A10C.. and not because of enemy kills of course! ;)

[jojo]

You keep making definitive statements about M-2000C radar which still has some bug to fix (beta, do you remember) and I don't get your point about radar scan cone ? Both scan ± 60 degrees left/ right and up/ down.

 

Close combat modes are more or less the same: Bore, Vertical Scan or HUD Scan for Supe 530D.

You also have horizontal scan.

 

From my test it locks and tracks efficiently...

[QuiGon]

I can only concur with jojo. I have non of the problems with the mirage radar that you describe, at least not since the last update. I now loose contacty very rarly, but that also happens with the F-15 radar. On servers with 80s/gulf war loadouts (meaning no ARH missiles) I have absolutly no problem to compete with FC3 fighters. The radar performs pretty much the same as the F-15 radar. Maybe you just don't know how to use the radar properly or haven't used it since the last update? I really don't know how else you can come up with such inexplicable descriptions. :huh:

[Fer_Fer]

isn't the FC 3 F-15 a block from 98?

 

of course its going to outperform an aircraft who entered service in the mid 80's.

[Azrayen]

The radar of the Mirage is so reliable that it loses the target randomly in TWS... :) ..it's a recognized bug, but it is a bug (that will be fixed) so I'm not moaning much about it.

It' not random, really. The remaining TWS bug (broke lock) appears when you roll sharply. While waiting for a fix you may, as a workaround, roll slower or use STT.

 

It cannot compete with the FC3 fighters...

Depends.

1-1 vs MiG-29A? It can.

1-1 vs F-15 or Su-27 full load? Not really indeed. It's a M-2000, not a M-4000 (read about it here).

1-1 vs light load (2xF1+2xF2 missiles) Su-27 or F-15? It can.

 

And 1-1 is not the only way to do it... Equal numbers will give ~ same results, but 2-1, 4-3 will get things interesting. It's all about knowing when to "go for it" and when not to.

 

Finally, 104th style flying is not the only way either. Kill is not the only way to win. ;)

[flecha78]

wait a ground radar in DCS and update the version of m2000

[jojo]

isn't the FC 3 F-15 a block from 98?

 

of course its going to outperform an aircraft who entered service in the mid 80's.

 

By 1998 the F-15C was equipped with Fox 3.

The Mirage 2000-5 fitted with Fox 3 Mica entered service in 1997 in FAF.

 

But you have the Mirage 2000C which is a "Cold War warrior".

 

It won't shine Vs Fox 3 shooters properly trained with full weapon load.

You would have to work in team, preferably under human GCI/ AWACS (for SA) and out number them to succeed against that kind of threat.

And we are still missing some features on radar screen for SA (Bull's Eye).

 

I have been telling that since the beginning...

[npole]

It' not random, really. The remaining TWS bug (broke lock) appears when you roll sharply. While waiting for a fix you may, as a workaround, roll slower or use STT.

 

 

Depends.

1-1 vs MiG-29A? It can.

1-1 vs F-15 or Su-27 full load? Not really indeed. It's a M-2000, not a M-4000 (read about it here).

1-1 vs light load (2xF1+2xF2 missiles) Su-27 or F-15? It can.

 

And 1-1 is not the only way to do it... Equal numbers will give ~ same results, but 2-1, 4-3 will get things interesting. It's all about knowing when to "go for it" and when not to.

 

Finally, 104th style flying is not the only way either. Kill is not the only way to win. ;)

 

That's what I tried to explain from the start.. :) ...but people believe that you can confront ON PAIR with a F-15C or a Su27 ...no you can't in normal conditions, and this is the only point at which I replied.

I agree on every other parts: I'm not saying the Mirage is not fun; i'm not saying it should change; i'm not saying the K/D ratio is the only thing you should consider. I'm only saying that the Mirage is something else.. like the A10C is eomthing else.. like the Su25 is something else.. like the P51.. etc. etc. etc.

[Azrayen]

OK, so it's not news...

I forgot to include a link earlier. This is how it should have been written:

It's a M-2000, not a M-4000 (read about it here).

 

That's what I tried to explain from the start.. :) ...but people believe that you can confront ON PAIR with a F-15C or a Su27 ...no you can't in normal conditions, and this is the only point at which I replied.

Problem is (I guess), definition of normal conditions. According to you, it's what happens on the 104th server. According to other, it's different.

This is why I ensured to be as specific as possible. ;)

[mattebubben]

That's what I tried to explain from the start.. :) ...but people believe that you can confront ON PAIR with a F-15C or a Su27 ...no you can't in normal conditions, and this is the only point at which I replied.

I agree on every other parts: I'm not saying the Mirage is not fun; i'm not saying it should change; i'm not saying the K/D ratio is the only thing you should consider. I'm only saying that the Mirage is something else.. like the A10C is eomthing else.. like the Su25 is something else.. like the P51.. etc. etc. etc.

 

It all depends on the tactics used.

 

In a head on missile exchange with both pilots pressing until one is down then no the Mirage 2000 is not comparable with the Su-27 and F-15.

 

But if you use the correct tactics depending on the situation then you are well able to tangle with any opponent with a better then even chance of success.

 

So instead of doing a missile exchange in head on you would likely have to go defensive evading the enemies missiles until either you get closer where you can gain the advantage (either by maneuvering into a close range dogfight where your instantaneous turn rate will give you the edge or with a snapshot Super 530 shot between dodging missiles)

or evading untill he runs out of BVR missiles at which point you will have the upperhand.

 

But this kind of thing is not unique to the Mirage 2000.

 

In any Aircraft you will have to adapt your tactics depending on both your aircrafts capabilities and that of the enemies.

 

And all fighters in game currently have a disadvantage against the F-15C in that kind of head on engagement as the F-15C has superior BVR missiles in the form of the Aim-120.

 

I stand by the fact that if you know the mirage and you use its strengths you can reliably take on any fighter in the game including the Su-27 and F-15.

 

Sure it might be slightly more challenging then flying a Su-27 and F-15 is but if one is afraid of a challenge one will never become a better pilot.

 

And especially when it comes to the Su-27 and Mig-29 it has advantages and not just disadvantages

(The effective TWS mode and the RWR Display being two major ones)

 

Its only the F-15 that can be said to mostly have advantages over the mirage 2000 but the F-15 has most of those advantages (and a few more ) over all of the other fighters that are in the game currently.

Edited June 8, 2016 by mattebubben

[Fri13]

And all fighters in game currently have a disadvantage against the F-15C in that kind of head on engagement as the F-15C has superior BVR missiles in the form of the Aim-120.

 

ARH isn't a silver bullet compared to SARH and F-15C has the edge now because Su-27 family (and Mig-29) doesn't have its radars simulated as should and launch capabilities doesn't exist that eastern aircrafts would have to nullify the benefits.

 

This especially in more than 1:1 situations like 2:2 or 3:3.

 

But we need to wait longer so that we would get Combined Arms to get some love and we would get a GCI simulation too, or if we would get Mig-31 module to operate as a Su-27 flight leader.

 

The mirage is just great. Problem is that people try to fly it like it shouldn't be. It is like F-15C pilot is going for CAS.

[npole]

Problem is (I guess), definition of normal conditions. According to you, it's what happens on the 104th server. According to other, it's different.

This is why I ensured to be as specific as possible. ;)

 

With "normal", I mean on servers with no restrictions and at pair skill level of the opponents.

[npole]

It all depends on the tactics used.

 

In a head on missile exchange with both pilots pressing until one is down then no the Mirage 2000 is not comparable with the Su-27 and F-15.

 

In no circumstance, as of my experience, the Mirage is put at advantage versus the FC3 fighters (in this category I only include the F15 and the Su27.. i rarely touch the Mig29). In my opinion the gap is reduced if you play smart, but it's not that adopting a certain tactic you're always ahead.

 

In a head to head you're dead long before.. this is clear, but it's not that getting closer will invert the parts, your chances will greatly increase only because they were ZERO before.

 

You say evading until your enemy runs out of missiles? ...you gonna evade eight missiles of a skilled pilot in a Su27? ...now trying to imagine the opposite: don't you think that it will be easier for him to evade your four missiles, than for you to do the same for four? Without considering that (as I explained in my previous posts), the AIM9 on the F-15C in example have a crazy turning angle, they can be shoot at higher G's, and the only way to stop them is to place an obstacle between you and the missile; while your Magic goes often straight as soon they are out of ideal parameters (I'm not saying this isn't realistic... ).

 

So yeah, you can clearly "do better" by adopting specific techniques, but I don't see a situation where the Mirage is in advantage versus a F-15 or a Su27, I mean in overall.. of course if you are lucky enough to popup behind a enemy at 3nm and you're ready to shot, you have a lot more possibilities than him.. but this is true for him as well!

 

I also see people (including you in this post) that talk about the Mirage agility... are you sure that you're so much more agile than a Su27 considering the G-lock tuning? Because I'm not...

[jojo]

the AIM9 on the F-15C in example have a crazy turning angle, they can be shoot at higher G's, and the only way to stop them is to place an obstacle between you and the missile; while your Magic goes often straight as soon they are out of ideal parameters (I'm not saying this isn't realistic... ).

 

I also see people (including you in this post) that talk about the Mirage agility... are you sure that you're so much more agile than a Su27 considering the G-lock tuning? Because I'm not...

 

If AIM-9M turns better than Magic 2 then Magic needs further attention. Because it's known to be able to be fired in 8G turn on 10G maneuvering target.

The same for Super 530D, no reason for it to be less maneuverable than the AIM-7M.

 

Max roll rate of the Mirage is 150% of the Su 27.

Of course it's not THE ultimate parameter, but a trick you have to know and to add to ITR.

 

Dodging 8 missiles:

You have to dodge the R-27ER, which are very susceptible to chaffs (and you have 112 of them) and then you can counter-attack.

While they can carry 6, I think most will carry a pair of R-27ET and 4 R-27ER.

You don't need him to be "winchester" before attacking...

 

Ok, even having to dodge 4 R-27ER isn't a good situation.

 

This where you have to cooperate. The Su 27 can only guide one at a time, Fox 1 too.

 

M-2000C is not an air superiority fighter, sent deep into enemy lines on his own.

It's an interceptor supposed to operate with GCI or AWACS support.

So the most sensible thing to do would be to attack F-15 or Su 27 only if you outnumber them and with good SA.

 

Maybe it's not the kind of thing you can do on 104th server ?

Edited June 9, 2016 by jojo