Update of R-27R/T/ER/ET guidance system with inertial/radio command update

[Veritech]

IMHO, I think the R-27s are not correctly modded in DCS. I've read various articles about the missile that states that:

 

1) It can be guided by another Su-27 budding with the launch platform.

2) The first phase of the missile flight is done by intertial guidance with a radio-command update in the first stage, becoming semi-active on the final stage of the flight.

 

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/aa-10.htm

 

That's a nice article about it.

 

ED, is it possible to be corrected in future updates?

 

Best Regards,

[WinterH]

Don't mind me, I'm just here for the spectacle.

 

Edit :

 

Yeah, yeah, I know this looks unhelpful :). This was discussed pretty vividly a few months ago (and probably a few hundred times before that :)). There's just no conclusive evidence on system working that way, and there are reasons why it might not be the best idea.

[Veritech]

:megalol:

[Veritech]

Don't mind me, I'm just here for the spectacle.

 

Edit :

 

Yeah, yeah, I know this looks unhelpful :). This was discussed pretty vividly a few months ago (and probably a few hundred times before that :)). There's just no conclusive evidence on system working that way, and there are reasons why it might not be the best idea.

 

What are the reasons it might not be the best idea? It seems that evidence is all around if you look for it.

[Seaeagle]

IMHO, I think the R-27s are not correctly modded in DCS. I've read various articles about the missile that states that:

 

1) It can be guided by another Su-27 budding with the launch platform.

2) The first phase of the missile flight is done by intertial guidance with a radio-command update in the first stage, becoming semi-active on the final stage of the flight.

 

 

1). incorrect

 

2). correct

 

There.. :)

[Chizh]

1) It can be guided by another Su-27 budding with the launch platform.

It is wrong.

 

2) The first phase of the missile flight is done by intertial guidance with a radio-command update in the first stage, becoming semi-active on the final stage of the flight.

It is true and implemented.

[Veritech]

It is wrong.

 

 

It is true and implemented.

 

The first is wrong, I do apologize on that. The only russian aircraft of that generation that can do that is the Mig-31. My mistake!

 

But if it's true and implemented, shouldn't it not give a launch warning indication on the enemy a/c RWR when launched?

Edited June 15, 2016 by Veritech

[GGTharos]

The only russian aircraft of that generation that can do that is the Mig-31.

 

There's no reason to believe that, either.

 

But if it's true and implemented, shouldn't it not give a launch warning indication on the enemy a/c RWR when launched?

 

Is there a reason why the RWR can't pick up the M-Link?

[Veritech]

There's no reason to believe that, either.

 

 

 

Is there a reason why the RWR can't pick up the M-Link?

 

Well... is there any reason it should? Do you have any evidence out there to back that up? Otherwise, having a semi active seeker head with inertial navigation sounds useless if the attacked aircraft can realize straight away that a missile has been launched at it. It doesn't offer any advantage over the Super 530D and the Aim-7M, or does it?

[GGTharos]

Well... is there any reason it should?

 

It's a signal sent out by the radar, on the same frequency as the radar tracking etc.

 

Do you have any evidence out there to back that up? Otherwise, having a semi active seeker head with inertial navigation sounds useless if the attacked aircraft can realize straight away that a missile has been launched at it. It doesn't offer any advantage over the Super 530D and the Aim-7M, or does it?

 

Do you have any evidence to back up your view other than some vague feelings about how this should be giving some missile an advantage over another missile? :)

 

The purpose of inertial navigation is to guide the missile in the space where the seeker cannot pick up the target signal - this seeker is pretty small compared to the aircraft antenna. There are other things as well, but that's the basics.

 

M-Links aren't exactly new, you know, they've been around almost since missiles have been around in one form or another.

By the way, are you talking about inertial navigation or mid-course updates? They're not the same thing.

[JunMcKill]

It's a signal sent out by the radar, on the same frequency as the radar tracking etc.

 

 

 

Do you have any evidence to back up your view other than some vague feelings about how this should be giving some missile an advantage over another missile? :)

 

The purpose of inertial navigation is to guide the missile in the space where the seeker cannot pick up the target signal - this seeker is pretty small compared to the aircraft antenna. There are other things as well, but that's the basics.

 

M-Links aren't exactly new, you know, they've been around almost since missiles have been around in one form or another.

By the way, are you talking about inertial navigation or mid-course updates? They're not the same thing.

 

Sorry GGtharos, again the same discussion, it's NOT A RADAR SIGNAL what is used for guidance!! it's a radio-command signal!! The radar lock is used to be received by the missile anntena when the missile is in the SARH mode after the INS and radio command flight time.

 

There are a lot of videos in youtube of real combats, that you only hear the RWR lock signal, but the missile launch is detected visual by the WSO, in this videos you NEVER hear the missile launch sound

Edited June 16, 2016 by JunMcKill

[Veritech]

It's a signal sent out by the radar, on the same frequency as the radar tracking etc.

 

 

 

Do you have any evidence to back up your view other than some vague feelings about how this should be giving some missile an advantage over another missile? :)

 

The purpose of inertial navigation is to guide the missile in the space where the seeker cannot pick up the target signal - this seeker is pretty small compared to the aircraft antenna. There are other things as well, but that's the basics.

 

M-Links aren't exactly new, you know, they've been around almost since missiles have been around in one form or another.

By the way, are you talking about inertial navigation or mid-course updates? They're not the same thing.

 

Hahaha nah, I do know that the AMRAAM is superior in most ways to the Alamo. I was just wondering of the first phase of the flight and why does the attacked aircraft get a signal while the inetial guidance is controlling the Alamo.

 

They are not the same thing, the mid course updates "update" the inertial guidance. So, until the mid course update is not done, the launcher aircraft shouldn't have to change the radar emiting band to terminal Guidance, therefore not warning the attacked aircraft of the missile launch til the first update.

 

Not as well that I said "should". Is not a perfect world :megalol:

[GGTharos]

It is emitted by the radar through the radar antenna. It's a radar signal; whether it's used for command or whatever else, my point is that it isn't a separate radio.

I realize that in some cases this is not so (eg. SA-2 has a separate command radio), but that's usually not what's happening with a fighter radar.

 

As far as I know, the process is:

 

Lock target (this has its own technical processes)

Command launch

Missiles are tuned (or may already be tuned)

Turn on missile battery

Launch missile

Missile now has some steering commands to point it at the target initlally

Seeker is activated and missile locks on target

Rear antennas receive carrier radar signal to compare doppler, and possibly also receive the radio command signal, if any (note, same antenna)

 

Guidance stuff happens.

 

If you know other details I'll be happy to discuss/be educated and I certainly understand that things vary from aircraft to aircraft (or I guess more accurately, from weapon system to weapon system)

 

Sorry GGtharos, again the same discussion, it's NOT A RADAR SIGNAL what is used for guidance!! it's a radio-command signal!! The radar lock is used to be received by the missile anntena when the missile is in the SARH mode after the INS and radio command flight time.

[Veritech]

Sorry GGtharos, again the same discussion, it's NOT A RADAR SIGNAL what is used for guidance!! it's a radio-command signal!! The radar lock is used to be received by the missile anntena when the missile is in the SARH mode after the INS and radio command flight time.

 

There are a lot of videos in youtube of real combats, that you only hear the RWR lock signal, but the missile launch is detected visual by the WSO, in this videos you NEVER hear the missile launch sound

 

That was the point of view I was trying to explain.

 

Thanks!

[GGTharos]

Mid course signals are generated when the missile is launched. There are no 'stealthy timings' or other fun stuff in these automated systems.

Likewise, there is no 'TWS tracking' which is what you seem to be describing - for SARH missiles, with a final switch to STT.

 

There's no tricky 'switching to terminal guidance' stuff - the STT signal is all the modern SARH missile needs to home in on.

You will get the lock signal because those weapon systems require a lock to launch the missile.

 

The only point of dispute is whether the RWR can pick up and process the M-Link and thus trigger a launch warning based on sensing STT with embedded M-Link.

 

Hahaha nah, I do know that the AMRAAM is superior in most ways to the Alamo. I was just wondering of the first phase of the flight and why does the attacked aircraft get a signal while the inetial guidance is controlling the Alamo.

 

They are not the same thing, the mid course updates "update" the inertial guidance. So, until the mid course update is not done, the launcher aircraft shouldn't have to change the radar emiting band to terminal Guidance, therefore not warning the attacked aircraft of the missile launch til the first update.

 

Not as well that I said "should". Is not a perfect world :megalol:

[GGTharos]

What videos? :D

 

There are a lot of videos in youtube of real combats, that you only hear the RWR lock signal, but the missile launch is detected visual by the WSO, in this videos you NEVER hear the missile launch sound

[JunMcKill]

It is wrong.

 

 

It is true and implemented.

 

In the same website, we have this:

 

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/an-alr-56.htm

 

It means that the RWR can detect certain RADIO FREQUENCIES, in order to detect if they are a radio-command signal for a SARH missile, but that does not necessarily make it so.

 

IMHO the SARH launch warning that ED modeled in the RWR of all aircraft is wrong and nothing to be with reality, the use of SARH is intended to keep his flight hidden all the time, receiving only the lock from the emisor aircraft (in models prior to AESA or PESA radars)

Edited June 16, 2016 by JunMcKill

[Veritech]

It is emitted by the radar through the radar antenna. It's a radar signal; whether it's used for command or whatever else, my point is that it isn't a separate radio.

I realize that in some cases this is not so (eg. SA-2 has a separate command radio), but that's usually not what's happening with a fighter radar.

 

As far as I know, the process is:

 

Lock target (this has its own technical processes)

Command launch

Missiles are tuned (or may already be tuned)

Turn on missile battery

Launch missile

Missile now has some steering commands to point it at the target initlally

Seeker is activated and missile locks on target

Rear antennas receive carrier radar signal to compare doppler, and possibly also receive the radio command signal, if any (note, same antenna)

 

Guidance stuff happens.

 

If you know other details I'll be happy to discuss/be educated and I certainly understand that things vary from aircraft to aircraft (or I guess more accurately, from weapon system to weapon system)

 

Yes, but the point is that the Alamo has inertial guidance at the first stage of the flight, where there is no radio-command update.

[JunMcKill]

What videos? :D

 

Ohhhh a challenge!! you loved it! :pilotfly: here you are

 

[GGTharos]

I know I wasn't very clear before, so I'll try again.

 

The mid-course signal is generated the moment you launch the missile. There's no 'waiting' by the system.

 

Similarly, that signal is not generated when launching a heat-seeker of any type :)

 

Yes, but the point is that the Alamo has inertial guidance at the first stage of the flight, where there is no radio-command update.

[GGTharos]

Oh, you mean potentially ballistic SA-2 launches?

 

You can look for other youtube videos explaining RWRs as old as vietnam era that can absolutely tell you that there is a missile launch. They also show how those systems can be tricked - but SA2 is a system where all those various things (target tracking radar, missile tracking radar, radio uplink) are all controlled separately ... which is not the case in a fighter jet.

 

 

Ohhhh a challenge!! you loved it! :pilotfly: here you are

 

[JunMcKill]

Oh, you mean potentially ballistic SA-2 launches?

 

You can look for other youtube videos explaining RWRs as old as vietnam era that can absolutely tell you that there is a missile launch. They also show how those systems can be tricked - but SA2 is a system where all those various things (target tracking radar, missile tracking radar, radio uplink) are all controlled separately ... which is not the case in a fighter jet.

 

Not only SA-2 had the iraqui force, read this:

 

19 Jan 1991 [w/o] 87257 87-0257 USAF USAF 614 TFS F-16C Block 30F Details

 

Pilot, Major Jeffrey Scott Tice ejected safely after travelling 150 miles inside Iraq, but became a POW as the ejection took place over Iraq. It was the 8th combat loss and the first daylight raid over Baghdad. The aircraft was struck by an SA-3 just south of Baghdad. Aircraft 86-0225 was brought in to replace this lost aircraft. Major Tice's aircraft aborted and 87-0257 was the spare for that day. Wreckage was later found by the US Marines who contacted the squadron to see what they wanted done with the aircraft as the aircraft was largely intact. Order was give to destroy the aircraft. Location of the crash site was in a section of Iraq that the US Marines had occupied. Most reports have the two losses of F-16's from this squadron switched on this date. Flew 4 missions before being written off.

 

January 19 – An F-16C Fighting Falcon (Serial Number : 87-0228) was shot down by a 2K12 Kub (SA-6) surface-to-air missile. The pilot (Captain Harry 'Mike' Roberts) was captured. He was released on March 6.[10]

 

January 17 – An F/A-18C Hornet (Bureau Number : 163484) was shot down by an Iraqi Mig-25 in an air-to-air engagement. The pilot (Lieutenant Commander Michael Scott Speicher) of VFA-81 was killed but his body was not found until July 2009.

 

January 19 – An F-16C Fighting Falcon (Serial Number : 87-0257) was shot down by a S-125 (SA-3) surface-to-air missile. The pilot (Major Jeffrey Scott Tice) was captured. He was released on March 6.[11]

 

March 27 – An F-117 Nighthawk (Serial Number : 82-0806) stealth ground-attack jet was shot down by a Serbian SA-3 surface-to-air missile during the Kosovo War; the pilot (Lieutenant Colonel Dale Zelko) survived and was subsequently rescued.

May 1 – An F-16C Fighting Falcon (Serial Number : 88-0550) was shot down by a Yugoslav SA-3 SAM. The aircraft crashed near Šabac, in a rural area of Serbia; the pilot (Lieutenant Colonel David L. Goldfein) survived and was subsequently rescued.[20]

 

 

I'm only taking SARH missiles

Edited June 16, 2016 by JunMcKill

[Seaeagle]

Yes, but the point is that the Alamo has inertial guidance at the first stage of the flight, where there is no radio-command update.

 

The R-27R/ER has inertial guidance with command update at first stage of flight and SARH at terminal stage. At initial stage the missile is steered to general target location by its onboard inertial navigation system based on aircraft radar's target coordinates uploaded to it prior to launch and updated ones transmitted to it after launch.

 

Transmission of command update commences at the point of launch - without it, the missile would be flying blindly towards a point in the sky without being able to take target manoeuvring into account and adjust its course accordingly.

 

Also the question on whether the target receives a launch warning or not is somewhat academic when talking about SARH missiles launched by "legacy" mechanically scanned radars, because the missile can only be launched when the radar has locked the target in STT mode.....i.e. the target's RWR will get a lock warning and thus be alerted about an imminent attack anyway.

[JunMcKill]

The R-27R/ER has inertial guidance with command update at first stage of flight and SARH at terminal stage. At initial stage the missile is steered to general target location by its onboard inertial navigation system based on aircraft radar's target coordinates uploaded to it prior to launch and updated ones transmitted to it after launch.

 

Transmission of command update commences at the point of launch - without it, the missile would be flying blindly towards a point in the sky without being able to take target manoeuvring into account and adjust its course accordingly.

 

Also the question on whether the target receives a launch warning or not is somewhat academic when talking about SARH missiles launched by "legacy" mechanically scanned radars, because the missile can only be launched when the radar has locked the target in STT mode.....i.e. the target's RWR will get a lock warning and thus be alerted about an imminent attack anyway.

 

I agree with you that a LOCK (STT) signal, should be a warning to the pilot and begin defensive maneuvers. But what is in discussion here is what you posted, whether the target RWR receives (or not), the missile launch warning. For example most F-15 in desert storm used AIM-7 (SARH) and the iraquies MIG-23MF and BN never had a clue of what was flying to them!

 

But at the same time, an iraqui MIG-29B (Capt. Jameel Sayhood) locked on "Rico" Rodriguez F-15, and he considered that a missile could be incoming, and he began defensive maneuvers.

Edited June 16, 2016 by JunMcKill

[GGTharos]

But none of this tells me anything at all about RWRs.

 

The MiG-25 incident is widely said to have been a heat-seeker employment, and even things like the F-16 shoot-down with an SA-6 was an SA-6 launched on a ballistic trajectory and guided in the last few seconds. That too is a good old vietnam-era trick, and it still works ... just rarely.

 

None of this applies to AAMs which are part of highly automated weapon systems behind them and do not use such trickery in general.

 

Not only SA-2 had the iraqui force, read this:

 

I'm only taking SARH missiles