Pilot model

[antagonist]

In case nobody has noticed yet, the German pilot is wearing an Eisernes Kreuz that hasn't had its swastika removed.

 

While I do not care one iota about whether or not there are (historically accurate) swastikas on the plane and the pilot's uniform, it is still illegal in quite a few countries and you may want to adjust the textures accordingly.

 

The same goes for the Dora's pilot model.

[Redglyph]

What usage exactly is forbidden? Waving or wearing it in public is one thing, but having a historic simulation prop, or watching a movie on WWII... is that forbidden as well?

[Solty]

What usage exactly is forbidden? Waving or wearing it in public is one thing, but having a historic simulation prop, or watching a movie on WWII... is that forbidden as well?

The law is the law.:smilewink:

 

[ame]

[/ame]
Edited August 22, 2016 by Solty

[Redglyph]

The law is the law.:smilewink:

 

Good reference ;)

[antagonist]

§ 86 StGB is the relevant text in Germany.

 

Its use is explicitly banned on depictions of NS era war materiel, such as the plane models. This would probably encompass the pilot model in a digital product.

 

Furthermore, the Iron Cross as awarded during WW2 may still be worn in Germany, but only after removal of the swastika.

[VAF [136] Striker]

I think that the law only applies to propaganda used by hate groups. It doesn't affect being used in historical context such as movies or video games depicting historical content.

 

Section 3 Subsection 1 states: shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes. […]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a#Law_text

[antagonist]

I think that the law only applies to propaganda used by hate groups. It doesn't affect being used in historical context such as movies or video games depicting historical content.

 

Section 3 Subsection 1 states: shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes. […]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a#Law_text

 

The Bundesgerichtshof disagrees with your assessment.

 

I don't have the file references handy, but it made rulings about which kind of use of the swastika was outlawed and it ruled it to be banned from being used on true to original models of war materiel used by the Wehrmacht.

[VAF [136] Striker]

The Bundesgerichtshof disagrees with your assessment.

I challenge you to provide one piece of legal ruling from the German High Court that can back up your position.

 

It's not a question of assessment on my end. I think that the law is extremely clear if you read the text carefully. It does not apply to education, entertainment, reporting or civil enlightenment. If this applied to entertainment products, you couldn't make movies like "Valkerie", "Where Eagles Dare", "Guns of Navarone" or pretty much any WWII film which feature Nazi emblems in almost every scene or any period video games like "Wolfenstein" that feature Nazi emblems as well. There isn't any ambiguity on this in my opinion. If it were illegal we wouldn't have these products. I have no doubt that ED has already been advised on this subject by their legal team and knows it's OK.

Edited August 23, 2016 by 75th-VFS-Striker

[Racoon]

The swastika will be removed ASAP.

Thanks for your reports!

[VAF [136] Striker]

Understood Racoon. In the interest of the community it's probably better off to not have it in there. My point was simply that it's not illegal if it's an entertainment product.

[Racoon]

I have friends in German game developers. Their point of view that using swastika in games is possible but very risky. Not use it is a easiest way to avoid slippery situations.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Racoon

[antagonist]

I challenge you to provide one piece of legal ruling from the German High Court that can back up your position.

 

It's not a question of assessment on my end. I think that the law is extremely clear if you read the text carefully. It does not apply to education, entertainment, reporting or civil enlightenment. If this applied to entertainment products, you couldn't make movies like "Valkerie", "Where Eagles Dare", "Guns of Navarone" or pretty much any WWII film which feature Nazi emblems in almost every scene or any period video games like "Wolfenstein" that feature Nazi emblems as well. There isn't any ambiguity on this in my opinion. If it were illegal we wouldn't have these products. I have no doubt that ED has already been advised on this subject by their legal team and knows it's OK.

 

Okay.

 

https://openjur.de/u/78740.html

 

Search the text for "originalgetreue Modelle".

 

Also, all these movies you mentioned deal with national socialism critically (this is why they're allowed to use the swastika, they portray it and the ideas it represented for the Nazis in a deservedly negative light), which is not something DCS does because it doesn't tell a story. It is physically incapable of portraying swastikas as anything but a prop with no context given.

 

Protip: Wolfenstein's official releases in Germany don't feature any swastikas at all and never have.

[antagonist]

The swastika will be removed ASAP.

Thanks for your reports!

 

Thank you!

[VAF [136] Striker]

Okay.

 

https://openjur.de/u/78740.html

 

Search the text for "originalgetreue Modelle".

I believe that the case you are referencing is that it was a hate group that was claiming that it was OK for them to use the Swastika on their propaganda or equipment and that they were trying to make the case that it was OK because the symbol was being used on either a toy or a plastic model of an aircraft. I can't read German and used Google translate but that's what it translates to. The judge ruled that the evidence was "inadmissible". Maybe someone that speaks and reads German can clarify that.

 

I still go back to the text of the law that states that entertainment products are exempt from this law. Now the other item that you stated as not including any Nazi symbols within the country of Germany, I can not verify what you are saying because I don't live in Germany. But I believe that it's a national sensitivity issue more than a legal one. I only know for a fact that these symbols have been and are still being used by the entertainment and gaming industry and I have not heard of any cases restricting or banning their use.

 

I do agree 100% with ED removing it from the model in the sim though because I don't think it's necessary to have it in there and it's not helpful in any historical context. I will however say that the reason that we as a society allow symbols and historical items to be reproduced is so that we don't forget the horrendous things that have been done throughout history in the name of hate. And the Nuremberg laws are indicative of that philosophy.

[VAF [136] Striker]

I wanted to add something here for clarification.

 

It may be that these symbols are banned outright in some countries. I just don't know and don't have the time to look it up. The discussion we've been having is specifically related to Germany and the German High Court statute § 86 StGB. It's easy to look up the law and read it for yourself. I've been doing some searching and I can't find any cases related to entertainment products being banned in Germany specifically. All I've found is that it's illegal for specific political groups to use the symbols for obvious reasons. I'm still searching but it looks like it is an area that is avoided due to cultural sensitivity and not for legal reasons.

[antagonist]

I believe that the case you are referencing is that it was a hate group that was claiming that it was OK for them to use the Swastika on their propaganda or equipment and that they were trying to make the case that it was OK because the symbol was being used on either a toy or a plastic model of an aircraft. I can't read German and used Google translate but that's what it translates to. The judge ruled that the evidence was "inadmissible". Maybe someone that speaks and reads German can clarify that.

 

I still go back to the text of the law that states that entertainment products are exempt from this law. Now the other item that you stated as not including any Nazi symbols within the country of Germany, I can not verify what you are saying because I don't live in Germany. But I believe that it's a national sensitivity issue more than a legal one. I only know for a fact that these symbols have been and are still being used by the entertainment and gaming industry and I have not heard of any cases restricting or banning their use.

 

I do agree 100% with ED removing it from the model in the sim though because I don't think it's necessary to have it in there and it's not helpful in any historical context. I will however say that the reason that we as a society allow symbols and historical items to be reproduced is so that we don't forget the horrendous things that have been done throughout history in the name of hate. And the Nuremberg laws are indicative of that philosophy.

 

I am German.

 

To be allowed to use the swastika you must meet very strict regulations, and DCS does not.

 

It may be used in works of art, in auction catalogues, by members of the Falun Gong religion and as anti nazi symbols by anti-fascist groups.

 

The case I linked earlier was about a company that was manufacturing aircraft models and painting swastikas on them. Turns out they weren't allowed to do that.

 

Here, I'll link you to a website where they actually compare cut games to their uncut original versions:

 

http://www.schnittberichte.com/schnittbericht.php?ID=363269#agu

 

Windmill warning applies, obviously.

 

They also mention how Wolfenstein (2009) had to be removed from sale because they had overlooked one swastika. Whoops.

[rrohde]

So, how can we preserve the existing texture now before it gets removed in the next patch? Thanks.

[rel4y]

Haha first thing I did as well. ;)

 

Go to ...\DCS World\CoreMods\WWII Units\Bf-109K-4\Textures and copy Pilot_BF109.dds

 

You will also need "pilot_BF109_FP1.dds" from ...\DCS World\Mods\aircraft\Bf-109K-4\Cockpit\Textures.

 

Germany is getting increasingly "banana repuplicy" anyway, no need to support such idiotic laws especially as they are not distinct in this regard. One could argue the liveries including symbols are art etc.

Edited August 24, 2016 by rel4y

[rrohde]

Great! Thanks for the info! :thumbup:

[Redglyph]

If they bring so much to some people, it could just be a kind of "advanced realism" mod for those aircraft.

 

International business can be tricky sometimes... reminds me of how Valve had to replace blood and shot people by robots leaking oil, among other things ;)

Edited August 24, 2016 by Redglyph

[antagonist]

Haha first thing I did as well. ;)

 

Go to ...\DCS World\CoreMods\WWII Units\Bf-109K-4\Textures and copy Pilot_BF109_NM.dds

 

Germany is getting increasingly "banana repuplicy" anyway, no need to support such idiotic laws especially as they are not distinct in this regard. One could argue the liveries including symbols are art etc.

 

Not going to argue against that.

 

I honestly wouldn't mind 100% historically accurate aircaft skins, not because I especially like the swastika or what it was made to stand for back then (the symbol is much, much older than 70 years, after all), but because I woud like my 109 to look as authentic as possible.

 

I just don't believe it's safe for ED to have players download texture files that include swastikas.

[rel4y]

Sorry I actually copied the wrong filename.. You need "Pilot_BF109.dds".

 

You will also need "pilot_BF109_FP1.dds" from ...\DCS World\Mods\aircraft\Bf-109K-4\Cockpit\Textures.

 

Actually the second one is the more important one as it is in cockpit, the first one should be the external view.

Edited August 24, 2016 by rel4y

[rrohde]

Thanks for the heads-up! :)

[VAF [136] Striker]

I am German.

 

To be allowed to use the swastika you must meet very strict regulations, and DCS does not.

Just so you know this statement is very subjective.

 

Also, I read the entire text of the case you referenced after I did a complete translation to English. The company that had its property seized and charged filed an appeal. The text from the court transcripts is the the result of the appeal and the accused won the case and the decision was reversed.

 

The court stated that the interpretation of the law by the circuit court was too broad for the exact same reasons that I had stated in my earlier post. It is not illegal to produce entertainment products that have the symbol in Germany. It is considered Taboo but there is a huge gulf between Taboo and illegal.

 

Here is the first part of the text from the actual case file.

 

1. On appeal of the accused, the judgment of the Landgericht Stuttgart is repealed on 29 September, 2006. The accused is acquitted.

2. The costs of the proceedings and the necessary expenses of the accused fall the Exchequer burden.

3. The decision on the obligation to compensate for prosecutions Stuttgart District Court has jurisdiction.

As of right.

reasons

The district court has sentenced the accused for utilizing of symbols of unconstitutional organizations fined. This operates under the name "N." a company that sells the product for Punkerszene as CDs, clothes, stickers u. Ä. Via a retail store and a mail order business. In its assortment numerous articles with illustrations were during a search on 23 August 2005 included, in which Nazi symbols, particularly the swastika in partially modified but still recognizable form were displayed, which by the way of representing the opposition to National Socialism should be expressed. The seized items were in the warehouse and in the store of the company held in stock and also sometimes delivered. The entire range of products was also in catalogs and in the context of a so-called. "Online Store" on a website cost.

The district court had considered when deciding on the commencement of the trial, the product marketed by the defendants article fell for the most part not the elements of § 86 a StGB because the Nazi flag had been so far used in clearly distancing manner; only in three of them the opposition is not clearly identified in a sufficient manner. On that point, the main proceedings before the district court - criminal judge - Waiblingen opened. On appeal the prosecutor's office, the Stuttgart Higher Regional Court has ordered that commencement of the trial before the District Court in nearly full of accusation, because a clearly distancing use of such characteristics of the criminal provision of § 86 a StGB under trap, with the incriminated symbols regardless of the intention of the user should be taboo. The District Court has now, in its judgment - visible on the basis of the decision BGHSt 25, 30 - of the opinion "in any case use herein of the indicator on a larger scale is independent of a criminal offense, whether an inner distancing from National Socialist ideas there and also independently whether and how such a distancing by the very nature of representation as such sufficiently well observed "outwardly.

The defendant lodged an appeal against his conviction revision. He has the Sachrüge success.

I. Contrary to the opinion of the District Court satisfied the use of symbols of unconstitutional organizations in representations in which is clear from their content in manifest and unambiguous manner, that they are needed in a strongly negative meaning, regardless of size not the offense of § 86 Criminal Code.

1. The protective purpose of the offense is the defense of a revival of the banned organization or it pursues anti-constitutional activities, the indicator indicating symbolically. The provision is also of preserving political peace in that any appearance of such a revival and the impression from foreign and domestic observers of political events in the Federal Republic of Germany is to be avoided, in her there is a fairly anti-state internal political development, characterized is that anti-constitutional activities of the indicator displayed by the direction would be tolerated. Even such an impression and to Socialize ends because reactions can interfere with the political peace sensitive. § 86a Penal Code also intends to prevent the use of symbols of banned unconstitutional organizations - regardless of the associated intentions - again such naturalized that the aim in principle to ban such indicator from the image of political life in the Federal Republic, not reached is, with the result that they eventually can again be safely used by the advocates of the policy objectives for which the indicator is (BGHSt 25, 30, 33 et seq .; 25, 128, 130 f.).

[antagonist]

snip

 

That's the Nix-Gut case, I wasn't referring to it.

 

But this one is the one I was talking about: https://www.jurion.de/Urteile/BGH/1979-04-25/3-StR-89_79