A-10 stall behaviour in DCS is incorrect

[mvsgas]

What version of DCS where the track made on?

[SCU]

What version of DCS where the track made on?

 

The one that was on at the time of that post, I have no clue what it was, but I would bet everything that the behaviour hasn't change much since then, I've seen every change log since then keeping an eye out for this specific fix and saw nothing. It's on Caucasus map btw.

[mvsgas]

Anyway SCU, I think it will be best if we wait until your DCS is updated. We can set up a mission in cold weather as I stated before and see what we can find out. We still need a RL example where we know all the factors, like A-10 test video from Republic or NASA. One that we have a known weigh, drag, weapons configuration and weather conditions.

[mvsgas]

The one that was on at the time of that post, I have no clue what it was, but I would bet everything that the behaviour hasn't change much since then, I've seen every change log since then keeping an eye out for this specific fix and saw nothing. It's on Caucasus map btw.

 

Is not about the behavior change, I won't be able to see the track unless I have the right version.

[Vitormouraa]

Anyway SCU, I think it will be best if we wait until your DCS is updated. We can set up a mission in cold weather as I stated before and see what we can find out. We still need a RL example where we know all the factors, like A-10 test video from Republic or NASA. One that we have a known weigh, drag, weapons configuration and weather conditions.

 

Agreed. I'm sure the 476th guys can help too. (in fact they helped in the past). But having an A-10 pilot, giving his feedback would be pretty handy no? even though having the documentation is enough I'd say. I'm looking forward to this, time ago Yo-Yo said they were going to take a look at the issue.

[SCU]

Is not about the behavior change, I won't be able to see the track unless I have the right version.

Ah damn, how do I know then? The version of DCS when this track was made?

[mvsgas]

I do not know Sir. But AFAIK, trying to see track from different version might show completly different behavior.

[Vitormouraa]

I do not know Sir. But AFAIK, trying to see track from different version might show completly different behavior.

 

That's not the problem, many months ago ED released a patch and the track system broke, and it's been broken since then AFAIK. Not sure if they fixed that.

[mvsgas]

Agreed. I'm sure the 476th guys can help too. (in fact they helped in the past). But having an A-10 pilot, giving his feedback would be pretty handy no? even though having the documentation is enough I'd say. I'm looking forward to this, time ago Yo-Yo said they were going to take a look at the issue.

 

The more the merrier. It will also help to know configuration for each person trying. Joystick, curves, hardware, etc.

[SCU]

Anyway SCU, I think it will be best if we wait until your DCS is updated. We can set up a mission in cold weather as I stated before and see what we can find out. We still need a RL example where we know all the factors, like A-10 test video from Republic or NASA. One that we have a known weigh, drag, weapons configuration and weather conditions.

 

Ok I'm not the most eloquent person, and English isn't my native language (I try my best to be clear and use the best words etc..), I don't know how to put this into words, but what I'm trying to say is: wouldn't it solve this predicament to just test this under the best conditions possible.. ever in the game (which I already did), and by doing that, and still getting a wing drop from high AoA, wouldn't it mean that it's wrong behaviour when compared to the proof (videos etc..) I provided and should be looked into? If my assumption is wrong please tell me I am wrong an why would I be?

[SCU]

By proof I mean evidence.. I am not claiming I know it all and that I'm always right, quite the opposite. All I'm saying is that I have read and seen so much evidence that it's overwhelming, at least for me, that A-10C in DCS should not be wing dropping when hitting the choppy warning tone, in most situations, just like its real life counterpart.

 

:)

[mvsgas]

Ok I'm not the most eloquent person, and English isn't my native language (I try my best to be clear and use the best words etc..), I don't know how to put this into words, but what I'm trying to say is: wouldn't it solve this predicament to just test this under the best conditions possible.. ever in the game (which I already did), and by doing that, and still getting a wing drop from high AoA, wouldn't it mean that it's wrong behaviour when compared to the proof (videos etc..) I provided and should be looked into? If my assumption is wrong please tell me I am wrong an why would I be?

 

The thing is what are the best conditions possible? How do you determine the best conditions possible? How can we know if the behavior in DCS is not the same in RL if we do not have a RL comparison? To be able to compare something, we need to know all the details do we not?

 

I do not know if your assumptions is wrong or right. I do not know if the model within DCS (any versions) is wrong or right. I am simply trying to establish details. For example, with the same weather (wind, temp, etc) and the same aircraft configurations ( empty weight, fuel load, drag, etc.) what are the results?

 

In a perfect world, we can find a video of an A-10C, in the video it tell us all the specifics of the aircraft and weather. We have outside and HUD view of the maneuvers. Then some of us with the same control set up try it and we either match the performance or not. Or a RL A-10C pilot can tell us DCS is wrong or right and the conversation is over I think.

Edited August 9, 2017 by mvsgas

[GGTharos]

Are you wing dropping when hitting the chopped tone or when exceeding it? The instruments lag behind physical motion, so you may have gone over critical AoA by the time you hear the tone.

[SCU]

It depends. At certain speeds (again I can't test at this time but it was in the 300 kts range) you can sorta ride the choppiness for a bit (but then you bleed speed and start wing dropping again), but at most other speeds sometimes the wing drops right at the onset of the choppy tone and others while slightly pulling into it.

[SCU]

The thing is what are the best conditions possible?

You got a point, but for starters we can have weak or no winds, and moderate temperature. Perhaps SI. I have been away from the world of aviation for a while, so the experienced and learned persons probably have an idea of the ideal conditions that least adversely affect the behaviour at high AoA.

 

The videos of the real life A-10s most probably won't have those ideal conditions (worse) in a number of them and still manage to not wing drop, so if one of us tests this and gets a wing drop in the ideal condition, while the real life A-10 doesn't in less than ideal conditions (at least one of the many HUD videos I shared) then I would say this is a pretty good indication that there is something wrong in the sim A-10. Again let alone the fact that the Dash 1 supports this argument.

[HiJack]

What version of DCS where the track made on?

 

DCS version should be in one of the files in the track folder somewhere.

 

EDIT: Sorry, DCS version does not show in the track folders. It would be a good idea to have the DCS Version show in the options.lua file for a track.

Edited August 9, 2017 by HiJack

[mvsgas]

Again let alone the fact that the Dash 1 supports this argument.

I do not know how the T.O. system for the A-10 works, but for the F-16, you need the -1, -1-1, -1-2 and the -34 series of T.O. to have a full picture on performance of the aircraft.

[ATTACH]167221[/ATTACH]

[mvsgas]

When we all get the same version, here is simple mission to try. 33% fuel, no chaff/flare, no ammo. Zero wind, Zero degrees Celsius, Zero barometric pressure.

DCS version is 1.5.7.7741

[ATTACH]167223[/ATTACH]

configuring the aircraft like this

3.2. Aircraft Configuration and Fuel Requirements. Ensure aircraft configuration for all

demonstrations is clean (no wing pylons or missiles except wingtip smoke winders) and internal

fuel. Each demonstration uses approximately 1,000 pounds of fuel. Optimum performance is

obtained when fuel load is 3,500 pounds; however, the demonstration can be safely

accomplished with a higher fuel load as long as the wing tanks are empty. The minimum fuel to

start the show is 2,500 pounds.

3.3. Airspeed and G Limits. The A-10 demonstration is flown at max power except when

slowing to configure for the gear down pass or slowing to configure for the minimum run

landing. The maximum Target G for this demonstration profile is 6.0 Gs. This does not preclude

a momentary increase in G for safety considerations.

can we performed the level 360 turn as indicated?

[ATTACH]167224[/ATTACH]

 

We also need to know; since we can not take the pylons of the DCS A-10C, what is the weight and drag difference? How does the difference (if any) affect the aircraft?

[Yo-Yo]

The simulated A-10 does not hit the numbers though.

 

Have any proof? Or it's just air shaking?

[Yo-Yo]

Then the ITT should indicate the correct value.

 

THat is VERY OLD TUNE... and the point was is that in DCS mint-fresh engine with turbine blades giving the highest possible efficiency is modelled. If you know what ITT means you should understand the difference between the mint-fresh and worn engines.

[Yo-Yo]

 

 

Try the maneuver between 0:29 & 0:41, which is a solid 12 seconds of chopped stall tone, in DCS. You can try it with the lightest weight possible, clean config & the most ideal conditions and you will lose.. you will lose control and your wings will keep droping.

 

Granted this A-10 has a decent amount of fuel (obviously so he can RTB after training) and carries 1 AIM 9 at least.

 

Will this video suffice? I forgot to hang AIM-9, though... but it is so lightweighted that it really does not matter.

1400 kg of fuel, no rounds.

 

[Vitormouraa]

That's very impressive...

[Gliptal]

Although the sim is amazing, it's not perfect. We still have hydraulics with an only windmilling engine, even though the 1A-10A-1 and the real checklists show that it's incorrect behaviour. Let me reiterate having inconsistencies and incorrect behaviours is perfectly fine, it's simply matter of acknowledging the issue.

 

Have any proof? Or it's just air shaking?

Multiple proof was posted some time ago. Latest I heard was from a go someone had on the real A-10 USAF sim.

 

THat is VERY OLD TUNE... and the point was is that in DCS mint-fresh engine with turbine blades giving the highest possible efficiency is modelled. If you know what ITT means you should understand the difference between the mint-fresh and worn engines.

Didn't real contracts call for 775 ITT during climbs? We can hardly reach that value in DCS at MAX power. Either ITT has two different meanings in the sim and IRL, the real contracts are wrong, or something is amiss with the engines and their behaviour.

 

e.g. From the 1A-10A-1, Cold Weather Operation:

At temperatures below O°F, engine will not reach maximum ITT on engine run up. At -40 ~ F, engine ITT will be approximately 750°C and will increase linearly to approximately 865 °C.

 

I've never seen 865°C ITT ever in the gauges.

 

From the 1A-10A-1, Sample Inflight Data Log Hi-Lo-Hi Combat Mission:

CLIMB TO 20,000 FT 775°C ITT

 

And 775°C ITT can't be MAX power (which is around what we get at MAX in the sim if memory serves) since again from 1A-10A-1, Combat Performance Charts (General):

The fuel flows are shown for both maximum and 775°C ITT thrust settings.

 

Implying 775°C ITT isn't from a MAX thrust power setting.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Gliptal

[SCU]

Will this video suffice? I forgot to hang AIM-9, though... but it is so lightweighted that it really does not matter.

1400 kg of fuel, no rounds.

 

 

Hey Yo-Yo, sorry man this thread is about the A-10C variant. In fact I think it came up earlier in this thread that the A-10A variant was more forgiving in the choppy tone AoA than the A-10C by a large margin (in DCS that is).

 

Edit: try the same in A-10C, I'm very sure you can't, without dropping a wing.

Edited August 9, 2017 by SCU

[Yo-Yo]

Hey Yo-Yo, sorry man this thread is about the A-10C variant. In fact I think it came up earlier in this thread that the A-10A variant was more forgiving in the choppy tone AoA than the A-10C by a large margin (in DCS that is).

 

Edit: try the same in A-10C, I'm very sure you can't, without dropping a wing.

 

No problem. Here it is.

 

A-10C uses absolutely the same model as A. Or, sorry, I am wrong: 10A uses the same as 10C...