dammage model

[OldE24]

What is the status on this and when will it improve? sometime recent it's gotten worse where you will hit one and the missile explodes but plane takes NO damage. i like flying a tank but when you on the other end it's super frustrating to have to double or triple tap them.

[Ktulu2]

+1

[myHelljumper]

Most of the time the mirage only take one shot to be downed...

[Ktulu2]

shouldn't be most of the time though, should be 99%

[myHelljumper]

shouldn't be most of the time though, should be 99%

 

Why ?

[Ktulu2]

An AIM-120 can take down a bomber efficiently in dcs at the moment, so you'd think it could take down one of the smallest 4th gen jet pretty casually. Sure, maybe not 99%, but let's say it should do more than cause fuel leaks.

[myHelljumper]

From my experience, 120C is 95%, other missiles with smaller warhead are 80%.

 

Even then most of the time I'm combat ineffective...

 

Shooting an almost non maneuvering bomber is not the same as shooting a small fighter, the missile can explode far from the plane were it does less damages.

[Ktulu2]

I still find 95 kinda low, given that's one out of 20. In 3 years of F-15, I've survived an 120 impact twice, and now with the hydro fail a fuel leak is pretty close to a death sentence. Given the -15 is much bigger, I would expect it to have even more chances of getting away.

Well, with bombers the size of the plane sure gives it more chances to survive. Heck, a B-52 survived a HARM impact, which has twice the warhead of a 120.

[myHelljumper]

It's not because the F-15 die each time that the 2000 have to, maybe the F-15 damage model is bugged ?

 

I think RAZBAM already stated that the damage model was complete..

[Ktulu2]

It is (for hydro), but the ALL the planes have very low survival rate against active missiles, so it would make sense to match what others have made, instead of changing everything else.

[gavagai]

Given the -15 is much bigger, I would expect it to have even more chances of getting away.

 

To play devil's advocate, the F-15 will also be easier to hit because it is much bigger. ;)

 

I can see the reason for the complaint, but you'd need some kind of controlled experiment to be sure that the Mirage 2000C is unfairly tank-like.

[jojo]

When my Wing is ripped off by a small R60 I don't have the feeling of flying a tank :smilewink:

 

I think it's a matter of "miss distance".

With direct hit the plane will go down. Buy if it's turning hard you will get proximity fuze detonation.

Edited September 24, 2016 by jojo

[Ktulu2]

To play devil's advocate, the F-15 will also be easier to hit because it is much bigger. ;)

 

I can see the reason for the complaint, but you'd need some kind of controlled experiment to be sure that the Mirage 2000C is unfairly tank-like.

 

Well, as I said, in the -15, anything that hits you (even 1 20mm shell sometimes) will give you an hydro fail and kill you. In other FC3 planes, surviving a MRM (doesn't matter if it poxymity fuzes or not) is an event that is extremely rare, even the Mig-29, that is often described as a tank, will die by a 120 and only survive things like an aim-9s. For the Mig-21, same thing, getting hit by an aim-120, or any missile for that matter, will end your day earlier.

The only plane that has a chance of surviving a 120 like the mirage does currently is the a-10, which shouldn't share the same design strength as a fighter at all.

 

Also, as for experiments, I remember things like M2Ks surviving 2 aim-120, 2 R-27, 1 120 and 2 gun 2 second + tracking shots and (worst of all) ramming an F-15 and surviving without important damage.

This being said, I think they improved the damage model slightly since than, but there's still a problem.

[microvax]

Well, as I said, in the -15, anything that hits you (even 1 20mm shell sometimes) will give you an hydro fail and kill you. In other FC3 planes, surviving a MRM (doesn't matter if it poxymity fuzes or not) is an event that is extremely rare, even the Mig-29, that is often described as a tank, will die by a 120 and only survive things like an aim-9s. For the Mig-21, same thing, getting hit by an aim-120, or any missile for that matter, will end your day earlier.

The only plane that has a chance of surviving a 120 like the mirage does currently is the a-10, which shouldn't share the same design strength as a fighter at all.

 

Also, as for experiments, I remember things like M2Ks surviving 2 aim-120, 2 R-27, 1 120 and 2 gun 2 second + tracking shots and (worst of all) ramming an F-15 and surviving without important damage.

This being said, I think they improved the damage model slightly since than, but there's still a problem.

 

 

Can I please have that DM ?

Don't test against AI ! But know what, I am just going to do test tomorrow player vs player and publish the track. I am flying the mirage only since the last damage model iteration. And I never had that luck many of you describe. So I think it's mainly memories in combination with DCS multiplayer things that leads to that. But hey maybe I am wrong test will show.

[Ktulu2]

All of the above was in pvp, but, as I said, my anecdotes are dated. Though, there's a discrepancy that remains compared to any other plane.

 

Here's a video if you want to laugh :

 

As for that DM, all I know by that abbreviation is dungeon master ;)

[microvax]

All of the above was in pvp, but, as I said, my anecdotes are dated. Though, there's a discrepancy that remains compared to any other plane.

 

Here's a video if you want to laugh :

 

As for that DM, all I know by that abbreviation is dungeon master ;)

 

I dunno how old the footage is, but that has to be horrible desync if its recent. I did sometestint already with a friend just for the RWR. Shot AIM120s at him. 4 Hits, 4 times pilot dead.

 

It really depends where you get hit, but you are combat ineffective unless someone is so bold and goes in front of a plane which even if its falling to earth still has operational guns and fox2s.

 

I mean you loose Radar EVERYTIME you get hit, RWR as well, additional to that you loose about 70% of the Engine performance if you get hit anywhere near engine parts.

 

But as said, I will test. I think its really just bad memories in combination with terrible DCS multiplayer backbone, blaming the mirage DM for DCS issues. But hey, I just could be worlds unluckiest Mirage driver who knows.

[Ktulu2]

IT was before the new netcode ;)

 

BUT my thing is that, even though the mirage is now arguably realistic, it isnt on par with other planes

[microvax]

IT was before the new netcode ;)

 

BUT my thing is that, even though the mirage is now arguably realistic, it isnt on par with other planes

 

I am not sure about the mirages FM, I dunno about low speed turnrate accuracy, but for DM I actually consider at least the Eagle too fragile.

 

I mean hydraulics failing from a few rifle hits just happens way to often.

Same as with missiles, someone has to start doing the right thing. :D

 

And unless I discover, that the Mirage can take missile hits without severe and mostly fatal damage, I would say its really the other planes which need to be worked on, and honestly with the 2.5 damage model rework that would probably be an good Idea.

 

And until F15 and Su27 do not take damage from runway craters I am not taking their DM serious anyways.... I mean even the Mig29 crashes from that. :D

[Ktulu2]

Making ED change something is hard though...Look at the missiles :/

[microvax]

Making ED change something is hard though...Look at the missiles :/

 

Yup, but if everybody complies with broken things there will not ever be the pressure for them to change things ! :)

[OldE24]

the F-15 is to easy to kill tell bilsimtek they made it. MY issues with the mirage are a few it is FAR better but still needs more work when i can clip another airplane messing around in Virtual aerobatics break a wing off and just keep flying like nothing happend there's something wrong.

 

If the wing breaks off but plane still flys like nothing happend there's a issue.

[Rlaxoxo]

the F-15 is to easy to kill tell bilsimtek they made it. MY issues with the mirage are a few it is FAR better but still needs more work when i can clip another airplane messing around in Virtual aerobatics break a wing off and just keep flying like nothing happend there's something wrong.

 

If the wing breaks off but plane still flys like nothing happend there's a issue.

 

That's actually damage-texture desync issue happens on some other modules as well.

Your wing is damaged but it got data that it's destroyed so you don't see it but in DCS it's still there but damaged

[codefox]

Yep, it's a really old netcode limitation of DCS. Damage is not always completely synced visually.

 

Also I have a feeling many here are comparing AI damage models with player damage models. AI will be easier to take out than a real player in most cases since their damage model is not based on the real flight model (EFM/PFM/AFM) but on the SFM with a really simple damage model. They usually only know a few states: intact, slightly damaged, shit's going down.

 

If you want to compare damage models in DCS, do so with other players and higher-fidelity planes (not Su-33 or MiG-29 with their SFM).

Edited September 27, 2016 by codefox