F10 view in servers

[GGTharos]

Perhaps it does allow cheating - which maybe is enough to say turn it off. But - (much as I hate to admit it) Gozr is right. Saying 'turn it off 'cause it's for noobs' is about ego more than about reflecting reality. F10 ON with the ICONS OFF is more realistic that F10 off. All the 'get a knee mod' or 'learn the terrain off by heart' stuff is just elitism. Modern aircraft have modern navigation systems, & where those are missing (& as backup) pilots carry maps. LO should provide the player with the aids that pilots have in reality. That's why we're getting the Kabris (sp?) in LOBS. Are all the aces saying 'turn F10 off' going to disable the moving map in LOBS? No - because modern military planes have such devices, and to disable it would be rediculous.

 

 

Thank you, you have hit the nail on the head!

There is a terrible double standard being put on by the 'Elite' community and wether -they- like it or not? They're not right.

There's a line you can draw between realism and elitism, and it isn't a particularely fine line either.

[graywo1fg]

DING DING DING DING YATZEEEE!!!!!! by Weta43! I completly agree. i hate to say it but i'm a little tired of hearing "go print out a map" "go download a mod" "go do stuff you dont have to do because the map is already there" Bla bla bla. Keep that sucka on. the minority of experts will say turn it off and Weta43 is right. we shouldnt have to go get a mod that has maps on your knees for something that is already privided! belive it or not you minority of experts i know SEVERAL people who dont like to play online because they say its discrimination agianst NOOBS. INCLUDING ME i didnt play online for the longest time because i didnt like it how one sided it was! i got bored with AI and got an X52 and Track IR 4 for my birthday :D and decided to give it a shot agian and found and exelent home with the Iron Angels 8)

[GGTharos]

However, let's look at the flip side of the coin:

 

People pay to run dedicated servers. The general non-paying populace has precicely zero rights in telling those people how to run their servers.

 

By the same token, said server owners have zero rights to proscribe how someone should want to play this game, or how another server (which they do not pay for) is run.

 

So understand this: You can complain all you want about how a server is run, but unless you are paying for THAT particular server, you basically have no rights to it. Period. That goes for -other- server owners as well.

 

Some people are willing to accept the rare public blasting about cheating from disgruntled players, some are not. This is the problem of whoever is running the server.

 

And if you come and tell me I'm a n00b because I like padlock, the map, or the ability to turn my head all around to be on (or worse yet, tell me it isn't realistic), or 'get a job' because I have no TIR? Go shove it where the sun don't shine.

[Kula66]

And the problem with that is ... ?

 

Personally I don't find it particularely difficult landing back at homebase as opposed to vectoring to some other airfield, and I don't really need to do that particularely often, either.

 

Often leads to long boring flights home ... as opposed to landing at the nearest, re-arming and go! If you enjoy long flights back to home base ... fine ;)

[theGozr]

Tharos anderstand this, no map = not real, many many lockon pilots lack of navigation, it could be fix by ED providing an very detailed downloadable map and not a print screenshot.( like real aviation ) or maybe the server owner can provide this map with some work and help.

There are litle things that need to be fixed to make it much more real and this is one of them. same with Online turbulences, right now is just incredibly unreal. The fun for me is not nessecary to launch missiles at 100 km away but to fly around and have a sensation of flight like IN the Offline play.

 

The lack of dedicated server is a no doubt bad move. I have dedicated servers on a data center but making "LO" run into one of them ( generaly have no CD rom for Starforce to run and check cd) is a pin in the Arss and also monopolise the entier server.

 

Make a test make a map for a server with no way points and lest see what will happen. This where some fun start with a good map, the guages and land marks,

[GGTharos]

I suggest you read what I wrote again, because you obviously did not understand what I wrote ;)

 

My maps have -minimal- waypoints, and people always used to cry 'but where is the enemy? They are not at the waypoint!'

 

... of course, they had also failed tor ead the briefing entirely.

[theGozr]

yes i agree and anderstand , just wanted to make a point. and this is a major problem with Lockon Pilots . Would be good to find a solution a compromise.

Maybe a new way to make maps or ennemy ground placements.

[GGTharos]

Yeah - I think we need to wait a little for 'the future of lock on' sadly, as things will not be changed over-night.

[Ardillita]

Tharos anderstand this, no map = not real, many many lockon pilots lack of navigation, it could be fix by ED providing an very detailed downloadable map and not a print screenshot.( like real aviation ) or maybe the server owner can provide this map with some work and help.

There are litle things that need to be fixed to make it much more real and this is one of them. same with Online turbulences, right now is just incredibly unreal. The fun for me is not nessecary to launch missiles at 100 km away but to fly around and have a sensation of flight like IN the Offline play.

 

The lack of dedicated server is a no doubt bad move. I have dedicated servers on a data center but making "LO" run into one of them ( generaly have no CD rom for Starforce to run and check cd) is a pin in the Arss and also monopolise the entier server.

 

Make a test make a map for a server with no way points and lest see what will happen. This where some fun start with a good map, the guages and land marks,

 

 

We already have that, not from ED (what a surprise) but from another member. It is a apck os very detailed maps, 1 from the caucasian peninsula and crimea peninsula, and also that memeber prepared detailed maps of each airfield. Don´t remember where I got them, I think from lockonfiles????

 

But get them, those maps are what you are talking about, print them in full size (A4) and plastified them, looks great and are great for navigation. useing this issue as "excuse" to have F10 view is not really a good point.

[Weta43]

"useing this issue as "excuse" to have F10 view."

 

Accepting the cheating problem - YOU DON'T NEED AN EXCUSE TO USE THE MORE REALISTIC OPTION !!!

 

See - now you've made me raise my voice !!! :-)

 

Do you intend to disable the Abris because it's for noobs?

Then why consider F10 for noobs ?????

F10 might be harder, & make you feel more accomplished, but F10 on is more realistic (if you turn off some icons )

[S77th-konkussion]

It absolutely is an excuse. It also has nothing to do with the ABRIS- which is a MODELED SYSTEM IN THE AIRCRAFT and not a "VIEW". As you have conceded- it opens up avenues for cheating.

 

End of discussion- far as our server is concerned.

 

Learn the theatre & use printed maps. Bitch at ED for releasing the game with woefully incomplete NAV systems if you want, but until you become a major investor in the server funds.... well- you know.

[theGozr]

No offense but Like i said lockon pilots are the worse to navigate You can read the above posts.

On my il2 servers there is a map with no icons no labels the way it should be.

It is not only looking at your radar and shoot someone at 100 km away and fallowing back your waypoints.

There is a compromise to make and the best way IMO is to take off any icons as possible leave a map empty of icons and navigate, it's very fun and you will spend a bit more time looking at the land marks.

 

MAke yourself a compas print it out to go on top of your empty map and try

And this is not about 77 servers, I'll make a server soon for testing.

 

All my servers were and are free to all btw and are open to discussion and everyone has a word on it. ;)

[Boneski]

F10 is a great feature it's easy to get lost in the US jets as well as the 25s.

 

Just like any good pilot you pull out the map to see where you are at.

Fellas it's a tool just as a map should be.

 

To restrict any of the views from a game is crazy. People remove padlock, exterenal views as well as F10....

 

These views help you because with out them things are way too hard. Much harder then they are in real lifre which is due the 2D nature of looking at a pc screen as well as not having true and powerful sensors

like you have in the jet.

 

F10 is your in jet Map... sure it shows you were people are in the game space. But all it does at the most is help people point to the icon and retrive data from it...The gamer still has to put a weapon on target.

 

So its all in balance. If people are flying around using F10 then I doubt they are having much fun flying a game about jets...

 

As for people logging in and using F10 as AWACS to vector flight... sounds like a great Idea...Combat that by doing the same.

To remove the feature because people are uisng it is nuts...

 

Guys Air combat is not about sitting in a metal thing with wings -lLone Wolf in a silent world. YOu run with a Clan... you

fellow pilots are talking to you some are even trashing the comms with so much info that you cant process it all. F10 is

like those other set of eyes and sensors it's not unfair.

 

You guys worry about cheaters too much.... Fear of losing has nothing to do with fairness...

[Ardillita]

Boneski , print the maps, put them on your knees when you fly FC, and later came back and tell us if it is the same as useing F10 where you can see your aircraft placed oin the map and it´s heading.

F10 is not realistic, use the kneeboard and let´s see if you can find your heading as easily as you can with F10

And padlock... well, it help people don´t have trackpoint but... how many peoply use the padlock function to lock things they never really saw?

[GGTharos]

Not a whole lot. Unless it's just you and one other guy. Not to mention padlock locking onto the wrong thing. Pretty much everyone who called it a cheat of any sort had a huge knee-jerk reaction.

Now they enjoy an unrealistic ability to -hide- where other aircraft cannot do the same. It cuts both ways, and easily so.

[theGozr]

MAP F10 ALONE WITH NO ICONS WHAT SO EVER with all off and map ON I CAN"T SEE ANY PLANES OR FRIENDLY OR ENNEMIES TARGETS.

 

How hard is it to anderstand this ? MAP (F10) ALONE!!!!!

 

!! Geezzuss christo maria jose !!! ;)

[Guest Cali]

However, let's look at the flip side of the coin:

 

People pay to run dedicated servers. The general non-paying populace has precicely zero rights in telling those people how to run their servers.

 

By the same token, said server owners have zero rights to proscribe how someone should want to play this game, or how another server (which they do not pay for) is run.

 

So understand this: You can complain all you want about how a server is run, but unless you are paying for THAT particular server, you basically have no rights to it. Period. That goes for -other- server owners as well.

 

Some people are willing to accept the rare public blasting about cheating from disgruntled players, some are not. This is the problem of whoever is running the server.

 

And if you come and tell me I'm a n00b because I like padlock, the map, or the ability to turn my head all around to be on (or worse yet, tell me it isn't realistic), or 'get a job' because I have no TIR? Go shove it where the sun don't shine.

 

Thats what I have been saying all along, if your not paying for the server then SHUT UP AND COLOR. I don't use the map and I don't care if it's on or off. If someone is that poor of a pilot or person and it makes them feel good to cheat, thats on them.

 

GG, what are your thoughts on if someone ask you to turn them off and you didn't (remember you are paying for the server not them) and they said they were going to tel their squad and start telling others that you are cheating? How would that make you feel, what does that show of that person?

[theGozr]

Well i can rent servers in my place at the data center to run lockon you need a 3 d card so it should be off a desktop PC or at list 4" server but we don't find these anymore they take too much place. so a question.. Is the servers are at a data center or at home some where ?

 

A server goes $150 to $200 windows server per month unlimited ( data center ) so yes it is quite costly after some time for an individual.

A Home server is basicly Free..

 

But i have some doubt about the servers ( in HL ) since they starting to struggle around 15 players that indictate they are maybe home servers ???

[ericinexile]

It certainly is the server's right to set the rules. If one choses to allow the map with enemy icons then he might as well place AWACS as well. Part of the fun of fighting is the proper use of radar. With the map, you don't need it. Just head towards the icon of your liking. Personally, I hate the map more than I hate external views. (However, I do wish the mini-hud were allowed in MP games because I think it compensates for the lack of SA one get's flying from a desk instead of a real world cockpit and it's rich environment that no sim can provide.)

[Weta43]

Cali :

I completely agree - whoever owns the ball gets to call the game.

I'm pleased you ran the poll & surprised it's so tight (assuming that the maybe's are undecided because of the risk of cheating) - but in the end if you're generous enough with your time & money to run a server - run it how you want.

also:

The question wasn't asked of me, but I saw it - "GG, what are your thoughts on if someone ask you to turn them off and you didn't (remember you are paying for the server not them) and they said they were going to tell their squad and start telling others that you are cheating? How would that make you feel, what does that show of that person?"

 

Annoyed.

What it shows about that person is that they are a sad arsed underhanded dichhead that's trying to blackmail you into doing things their way by threatening to ruin your reputation.

 

more generaly

 

What I disagree with is the fact that somehow some players equate difficult with realistic, so anything that makes the game harder must make it more realistic, (& anything that makes it easier is for noobs &/or 'cheating') & from that get that turning F10 completely off makes the game more realistic. It doesn't - it just makes it harder - & perhaps more fun for some, & harder to cheat if you're that way inclined & prepared to have someone sit & watch for you - but not more realistic.

I think I remember GGTharos mentioned above that the F-15 has a nav system not unlike the Abris. Where is this modelled ingame ? where are the Su(es) & Migs' navigation systems? barely modelled. The nearest thing is the F10 screen with some icons turned off. (& before we get another post of "With the map, you don't need it (radar). Just head towards the icon of your liking" no-one is suggesting that all the icons be turned on, just the players' own plane ,& perhaps static targets.

[Guest Cali]

Thx for the reply Weta, that question was ask for anyone to answer it. As I have stated many times before I don't use F10 and I don't care if it's on or off.

[Ice]

A couple of years ago the 169th had a little squad fight against another squad whom I havent seen since most likely and forget who they were anyway. As they left licking their paws the last one made a sarcastic coment that the only reason we won was because we were using the F10 view off the server as a type of Gods view or EWR. I immediately turned it off from that point onward because the last thing I wanted was any chance of mistrust or the chance of someone accusing us again after winnig a fair fight. It was an easy decision. The map served no benifit. there are plenty of alternatives which have all been stated in this thread. As some of you may notice I even go to the troupble of making maps available for everyone top maximise theitr SA and its a fun, fair fight for all.

 

A month ago or more I politely informed a senior member of the =IA= the problems leaving the map view on can cause. I fully expected there to be a reaction of slight surprise and "Oh I never knew that" We'll turn it off next time we restart the mission. In actual fact that WAS the reaction I got at the time.

 

Anyway 2 or 3 weeks went by and the IA are still using the F10 view? This really did amaze me. Whats the point I thought? Why would you leave it on. So I paged Cali in private and asked him to remind whoever is in charge of the potential problem thinking it was just an oversite.

 

I finally made a post in the IA forums making it clear with a screenshot as to what could be happening by observers or admin.

 

IA already use EWR on their missions and thats fine. But the possibility of clients or any admin being able to exploit this unecessary option annoyed me and I decided to make my squadron members aware of the situation and advised them to "enter at own risk".

 

All this veiled speach and and indirect backstabbing of me is quite laughable.

 

To the IA. If you want to leave the F10 view on thats up to you even though its seems obvious that the majority want it off and Id estimate half who said leave it on dont "get it" anyway.

 

My advise is turn all icons on for everyone or turn F10 off all together.

 

If you dont then expect me and other leaders to warn their team mates of the what "could" be happening. If I dont feel comfortable flying in there. Then its only natural that I will tell my colleagues why. That is our right just as much as is yours to run your preferred settings. Even if they dont make any sense.

 

Ive watched with light hearted amusement how this subject has touched a nerve. Until it started to get personal.

 

Cali said that I said IA cheat. He may correct his statement but I will correct it for him anyway. I said there is the "potential" to cheat. There is a big difference. I also said that I believe the IA to be an honorable squadron.

 

Weta. I suggest you verify what was said from the "horses mouth" before you start slinging abuse next time.

[Guest Cali]

Ice, I told Kudos about the F10, if he didn't want to change it....fine he is paying for the server not me or you. I have ask Kudos to put a AWACS in the missions as well.

 

So if no one replied to your post, I'm sorry for that, but I know they have seen it. And if the F10 was still on after 2-3 weeks, then I guess you got your answer.

 

And where did I mention your name in that post? You just outta yourself, you know what was said on teamspeak and we both have other people that were in there. Weta didnt't do anything, all he did was reply to a post I made.

 

And we don't bann people from our forums or TS unless they are hackers. and I know your not a hacker.

 

Oh and it seems like people like flying in our server...

[Weta43]

Ice - Cali asked a question about a specific set of behaviours & I answered. If you answered the same question as a hypothetical question - what would your answer be?

Had someone come onto his server and accused him off cheating - & threatened to spread the word that he was cheating - because he wouldn't configure the server the way they wanted him to - well I gave an answer.

Someone coming on his server, seeing the configuration and pointing out that it may allow some other people to POSSIBLY cheat & telling their own squad that such & such a server allows F10 & reminding them that this might mean some other people connecting to his server could be cheating - is a different thing & I see no problem in it.

Which of these applies to the situation that arose between Cali & you is something that you two will have to sort out. I have no way of knowing - It sounds like a misunderstanding at some level, however it seems to me that whichever it is, Cali has every right to run his server as he sees fit.

As far as F10 on goes - for every 10 people who responded - only 1 more thinks it should definately be off than think it should be on - & that 1 person thinks maybe, so "its seems obvious that the majority want it off" seems to be overstating the case a bit, & providing a server with it on is catering to a section of the community at most only slightly smaller than that that would prefer it off.

[Cosmonaut]

I think we all understand the person that pays for the server makes the rules and I have never and would never ask for any host to alter anything .. well maybe the time of day but that’s it.

 

I do sometimes use F10 with only my own aircraft being displayed when flying offline… Do I need to? Nope but I like the immersion of checking a moving map and making sure I’m in the right place especially when flying CAP missions where friendly units are very, very close by.

 

Now if we are talking about realism then real men fly with maps like these ;)

 

 

I wonder if we will ever see nav aids in any future LO product like my FS9 pics above with ndb’s, vor’s, H/L jet routes etc.