AIM120"C" and AIM9"M" TEST TEAM READ!

[D-Scythe]

In my view, ARH's were removed from Su-27 in Lock On because Flanker with ARH's was superroir to F-15 (in Lock On).

 

Well, first of all, ARHs were NEVER part of the Su-27's armament (except for the R-27EA, but that's basically a fictional weapon). if you really look at it:

 

- F-15C has no IFF, even though it was born with it

- the APG-63 is not really modelled in any detail, to say the least

- R-77 lofts (even though IRL it doesn't), has the same PK (which it shouldn't, cause it's AIM-120A tech at best) and has a longer-range than the AIM-120C (which it doesn't, cause it doesn't loft)

- equal or worse ECCM for the F-15

- BVRAAMs are easily evaded anyway, due to the lack of WAFM and WASM

 

Considering 90% of the game the F-15 plays is BVR, it's pretty safe to say that things are skewed to the Su-27's favour as of now. In reality, the baseline Su-27, 1980s-tech (as in LOMAC) would come out the loser 9 times out of 10 in a confrontation with a late-1990s F-15C with AIM-120Cs.

 

And people complain the Su-27 is undermodelled...

 

Well what would happen if the 120's work like they should??? Flanker pilots would start crying. Thats my view...

 

Yup.

[GGTharos]

How not? Ok, Flanker will get LA first, ER/ET sequence...But Eagle has better ECM package, in my expirience with LOMAC, F-15 pilots always get a first lock, it can engage multiple targets, and once his AIM-120 goes into terminal, he can turn around and go home. I would call this an advantage.

 

ECM on both aircraft is the same. EXACTLY the same. Copy and pasted code. No advantage there.

 

The F-15 can lock first, but it means nothing: The 120's can't reach this far anyway, and if your opponent is jamming, you're still stuck with STT (not so in the real thing)

 

The F-15 can turn around when the 120 starts homing, but that 120 will likely be evades, and -very- easily at that. Ever seen someone come straight at you and your missile missing just because he's dropping chaff all the time? This happens a -lot-. No advantage there. Not in the face of ET's either, which won't so much as give you a warning -and- they do in fact outrange the 120. If you pose against someone who launched an ET at you, you lose: The 120 arrives later, not to mention it warns your opponent and as such it is decoyed.

 

Eagle can engage three Flankers at the same time, in BVR combat, in theory.

Nice theory. Every tried engaging 3 flankers with their ECM running? You should try it. The Eagle doesn't really stand a chance as you have to try and rapidly switch between targets WVR. Even if they are not using ECM

 

Flanker has ho chance against three Eagles in straight BVR. But Flanker can sneak around, it has loads of fuel, plus medium ranged thermal missiles, plus IRST. The 15's advantages are multiple engagement and active missiles, and those are great for straight up head on BVR. Flanker has the ability to stay longer in the air, so you have the time to prepare an sneaking tactics, and to remain sneaky using IRST and R-27T/ET.

 

So i would say that Eagle is better in heads on BVR.

Are we playing the same game? ...

 

 

Listen, GGTharos, i don't know if F15 needs attention or not, im not that familiar with it's true capabilities and history, as i am with twentyseven.

I know. it needs -major- attention.

 

Ok, if the Eagle can carry 120C in the game (it can't, there is 50km max range in LOMAC's AMRAAM, that means B version, but the whole topic is about getting the right C version in the game), then it would be nice if whole needed avionics were upgraded on the same level as 120C era F-15C. Not some hybrid stuff. Hovewer, Flanker then needs restoration too. How would you feel (i sense that you are western-technology biased), if you had, in LOMAC, first version of F-15 with AIM-7 Sparrow, and we had Su-30M? Not fair.

I sense you're eastern-techonology biased :) The Flanker that carries the 77, IF any do, and IF there are any 77's ACTUALLY operational within the VVS (which, IIRC, was not going to happen due to political stink) they were at that time -far- inferior in terms of avionics to the F-15 of THAT era, let alone the C. So don't talk to me about 'era this' and 'era that' because that will get you nowhere.

 

Right now the Flanker has relative parity with the 15 due to the porked AMRAAM, Radar, and other assorted stuff. Period.

[nscode]

Well what would happen if the 120's work like they should??? Flanker pilots would start crying. Thats my view...

 

I say again and agian: please, make them "like they should be" tomorow so we can keep shooting you down and shut you up ;)

[TucksonSonny]

 

And they did it in ONE shot 8 out of 10 times. Statistically, it is by far the most successful missile ever fired in combat.

 

First of all it was a miracle that it still was possible to have Iraqi or a Serbian Mig-29 airborne in these wars (a couple of blind mig-29’s against 3000+ amraam capable opponents).

This mig-29 had NO R-77 or ET capability (no flankers too). Imagine going up at HL with your 30 F-15C’s against a couple of mig-29A’s (not mentioning the 3 AWACS planes supporting the NATO forces in these wars ).

I know for a fact that it was very hard for a Dutch F-16 pilot to make a Mig-29 kill. Even with AWACS support the first F-16 pilot could not get a suitable lock with his AIM-120C and had to turn back.

After another try by his wingman again there was no lock possible and finally close to 15 nm the lock was made and the kill was a fact (there was close contact between AWACS and these pilots during the operation). BTW, this was the first aim-120C kill by foreign allied pilot.

You can read the full story at frugals.

BTW, this Mig-29 pilot used his chute and could survive the war.

On top of this a USAF pilot was telling on a public forum that they were spamming these AMRAAMS all over the place in the Yugo-war (forget about this 8 out of 10)

[D-Scythe]

First of all it was a miracle that it still was possible to have Iraqi or a Serbian Mig-29 airborne in these wars (a couple of blind mig-29’s against 3000+ amraam capable opponents).

This mig-29 had NO R-77 or ET capability (no flankers too). Imagine going up at HL with your 30 F-15C’s against a couple of mig-29A’s (not mentioning the 3 AWACS planes supporting the NATO forces in these wars ).

I know for a fact that it was very hard for a Dutch F-16 pilot to make a Mig-29 kill. Even with AWACS support the first F-16 pilot could not get a suitable lock with his AIM-120C and had to turn back.

After another try by his wingman again there was no lock possible and finally close to 15 nm the lock was made and the kill was a fact (there was close contact between AWACS and these pilots during the operation). BTW, this was the first aim-120C kill by foreign allied pilot.

You can read the full story at frugals.

BTW, this Mig-29 pilot used his chute and could survive the war.

On top of this a USAF pilot was telling on a public forum that they were spamming these AMRAAMS all over the place in the Yugo-war (forget about this 8 out of 10)

 

Do you even know what you're talking about? You're information contradicts just about everything I've ever read. And again, you're only source is a "USAF pilot" on a public forum.

 

Yeah, right.

 

Come back when you can provide at least ONE viable source. Even a crappy internet site would do, so long as it isn't from some dude claiming to be a USAF pilot.

[golfsierra2]

First of all it was a miracle that it still was possible to have Iraqi or a Serbian Mig-29 airborne in these wars (a couple of blind mig-29’s against 3000+ amraam capable opponents).

 

3000+ AMRAAM capable opponents ? Have you read this in a Sci-Fi book ??

[D-Scythe]

3000+ AMRAAM capable opponents ? Have you read this in a Sci-Fi book ??

 

Actually, sci-fi books are usually based on more facts than this guy's opinions. Most of the stuff he says leaves me shaking my head in wonder.

 

Like if you really really really want something to be true, than by golly it is.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

3000+ AMRAAM capable opponents ? Have you read this in a Sci-Fi book ??

In his defense, I would say that Order of Battle over Kosovo supports his claim. NATO (read USA) brought approximately 1200 + aircrafts in the theater. Several hundred of them AMRAAM capable.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Actually, sci-fi books are usually based on more facts than this guy's opinions. Most of the stuff he says leaves me shaking my head in wonder.

He was actually very close to the FACTs. Check Order of Battle over Kosovo and you will see.

 

Like if you really really really want something to be true, than by golly it is.

It is very common to come up with different truth based on the same facts.

 

So, I prefer to talk about facts. I avoid, as much as possible, talking about the truth.

 

Here’s example. The fact is NATO brought close to 3000 AMRAAM capable air force to deal with few MiG 29A’s over Serbia. That is the fact. Also, the fact is that two AWACS’s were airborne during operations over Kosovo.

 

So, what is the truth about AMRAAM and F-15’s (F-16’s …) then?

[GGTharos]

First of all it was a miracle that it still was possible to have Iraqi or a Serbian Mig-29 airborne in these wars (a couple of blind mig-29’s against 3000+ amraam capable opponents).

 

This mig-29 had NO R-77 or ET capability (no flankers too). Imagine going up at HL with your 30 F-15C’s against a couple of mig-29A’s (not mentioning the 3 AWACS planes supporting the NATO forces in these wars ).

 

Only one AWACS flies at a time. As for 30 F-15C's in LOMAC vs. a MiG-29A, it would be a complete cluster frack and the 15's would shoot down each other.

 

I know for a fact that it was very hard for a Dutch F-16 pilot to make a Mig-29 kill. Even with AWACS support the first F-16 pilot could not get a suitable lock with his AIM-120C and had to turn back.

After another try by his wingman again there was no lock possible and finally close to 15 nm the lock was made and the kill was a fact (there was close contact between AWACS and these pilots during the operation). BTW, this was the first aim-120C kill by foreign allied pilot.

 

You can read the full story at frugals.

 

BTW, this Mig-29 pilot used his chute and could survive the war.

 

That's nice. The F-16 is not a BVR machine, its radar is not that great, so this doesn't surprise me a whole lot - but I wonder about the accuracy of 'lock' ... maybe they meant that they were out of the DLZ.

 

On top of this a USAF pilot was telling on a public forum that they were spamming these AMRAAMS all over the place in the Yugo-war (forget about this 8 out of 10)

 

 

Pure BS. *pure*. USAF employs economy of weapons. AMRAAMs aren't cheap. 8 out of 10 is just about right. And most of the shots that missed were taken at Rmax or used to scare off opposition so they wouldn't bother a strike flight.

[GGTharos]

He was actually very close to the FACTs. Check Order of Battle over Kosovo and you will see.

 

It is very common to come up with different truth based on the same facts.

 

So, I prefer to talk about facts. I avoid, as much as possible, talking about the truth.

 

Here’s example. The fact is NATO brought close to 3000 AMRAAM capable air force to deal with few MiG 29A’s over Serbia. That is the fact. Also, the fact is that two AWACS’s were airborne during operations over Kosovo.

 

So, what is the truth about AMRAAM and F-15’s (F-16’s …) then?

 

The truth is that MiG-29A's don't stand a chance. They weren't engaged by 50 aircraft simultaneously, and they rarely had more than one missile shot at them. That there was overwhelming numbers of NATO aircraft and the MiGs couldn't go anywhere by not encountering any doesn't mean that those aircraft did not suck. In a number of engagements those MiG pilots knew exactly what was happening.

[D-Scythe]

In his defense, I would say that Order of Battle over Kosovo supports his claim. NATO (read USA) brought approximately 1200 + aircrafts in the theater. Several hundred of them AMRAAM capable.

 

Even 1200 AMRAAM capable fighters is fiction. In reality, only the 14-24 F-15Cs, 24 F-15Es, and couple squadrons of F/A-18Cs and F-16MLU/Cs were AMRAAM-capable. I don't know off the top of my head since I didn't memorize NATO's Allied Force OOB, but I would guess the ACTUAL number is closer to 500 at MOST.

 

And the majority of that force are STRIKERS - i.e. not MiG hunting. See what happens when you pass off your opinions as facts? They get shot down, fast.

 

Next.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

The truth is that MiG-29A's don't stand a chance.

The fact is Yugoslavian MiG-29A’s DID not stand a chance against numerically first and technologically second superior air force. Anyway, what was the point you tried to make?

 

They weren't engaged by 50 aircraft simultaneously, and they rarely had more than one missile shot at them.

He, he, he. Only one was engaging and the other 49 were creating tactical situation so that the ONE who was engaging was going to succeed. Nice try GG.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

And the majority of that force are STRIKERS - i.e. not MiG hunting. See what happens when you pass off your opinions as facts? They get shot down, fast.

You never read what he said.

 

TacksonSonny said that “(a couple of blind mig-29’s against 3000+ amraam capable opponents).” The key word is CAPABLE. Not that 3000 + AMRAAM’s were in the air.

 

Here is Kosovo order of battle to clarify the numbers.

[TucksonSonny]

Even 1200 AMRAAM capable fighters is fiction. In reality, only the 14-24 F-15Cs, 24 F-15Es, and couple squadrons of F/A-18Cs and F-16MLU/Cs were AMRAAM-capable. I don't know off the top of my head since I didn't memorize NATO's Allied Force OOB, but I would guess the ACTUAL number is closer to 500 at MOST.

 

And the majority of that force are STRIKERS - i.e. not MiG hunting. See what happens when you pass off your opinions as facts? They get shot down, fast.

 

Next.

 

 

The number 3000 was rather the total for Iraq gulf war.

Anyway I guess close to 800 allied fighters for the Yugo-war (230 fighter planes for the US alone)

BTW, 35000 sorties were done.

 

About the USAF pilot, I can’t find the forum anymore.

I remember that I made a link for it in a post (in this forum) about a flame war between a NAVY pilot and a USAF pilot (the subject was the famous f-22 in the gun-pipper of a superbug).

I can’t even find my post here or it was deleted!

 

Anyway in that situation of the event we got 4 F-16’s vs 1 blind Mig-29A (1 AWACS with direct contact with 4 Dutch F-16's; read 24 x AIM-120C vs. nothing that came close)

[Kenan]

Actually, I have a classified recording transcript of that serbian Mig vs Vipers encounter:

 

Mig29A pilot shouting in the comms: "Stop fcuking spamming those Amraams no0bs!"

 

Viper1 Lead: "Shut t3h fcuk up b1thc and get ready to be pwned!!!"

 

Mig29A pilot: "You spamraam wh0r3s, you got awacs you got numbers, wh4t t3h fcuk?!!!"

 

Viper1,2,3,4: "Bohoo crybaby!!!"

 

Mig29A pilot: "Well, screw you guys, I'm not flying like th1s!"

 

Viper1 Lead: "No! Wait! D0n't do th4t sh1t!!!"

 

Viper flight: "Ok! Ok! We tell our AWACS to g3t t3h fcuk 0ut of here, just..don't do that!!!"

 

Mig29A pilot: "Oh yeah? W3ll watch this b1tch! CTRL + E+E+E!!"

 

Viper flight: "Noooeeesss!!!!"

 

AWACS message, brought to you by NATO™: serbian Mig29A Pilot has ejected

 

Viper Lead: "Fcuk! Fcuk! Fcuk! Who g3ts teh kill??"

 

Viper Flight: "Me! Me! Me! Me!"

 

^^ This classified peace of info will be deleted after 24 hrs, for your personal safety.

[GGTharos]

The fact is Yugoslavian MiG-29A’s DID not stand a chance against numerically first and technologically second superior air force. Anyway, what was the point you tried to make?

 

He, he, he. Only one was engaging and the other 49 were creating tactical situation so that the ONE who was engaging was going to succeed. Nice try GG.

 

The MiG-29A does NOT stand a chance against an F-15C technologically FIRST. PERIOD.

 

The 49 other aircraft were off capping their own little sectors, and not getting involved: Talk about fratricide potential.

[nscode]

lolz!!1

[nscode]

The MiG-29A does NOT stand a chance against an F-15C technologically FIRST. PERIOD.

 

But it stans a great chance of making everyone pee in their pants just by getting airborn and also of making everything halt for that time. Even if that is 5 min if it's enough for someone on gnd to escape strikers, it's mission is a success.

[TucksonSonny]

The MiG-29A does NOT stand a chance against an F-15C technologically FIRST. PERIOD.

 

The 49 other aircraft were off capping their own little sectors, and not getting involved: Talk about fratricide potential.

 

I remember from the conversation that the Serbian Mig-29 was flying very low with his radar off.

Your strong F-15C radar wouldn’t have a better lock I guess.;)

In lomac you push your buttom and your AMRAAM is flying away instantaneously.

I remember from the event that after pushing the button on the HOTAS it was taking seconds before the AMRAAM came from his rails!

Maybe an idea to model in BS (2 seconds delay after pushing the button)

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

The MiG-29A does NOT stand a chance against an F-15C technologically FIRST. PERIOD.

You are stating the obvious, you are not making the point. Why did NATO need ten F-15’s for every technologically inferior MiG-29A?

The 49 other aircraft were off capping their own little sectors, and not getting involved: Talk about fratricide potential.

He, he, he. Another nice try. So there was 20 to 1 in numbers alone, aircraft in the air.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

=4c= Hajduk, here we go again

Cali, my friend, yes you are right. Here we go agian.

 

Regards,

[Pilotasso]

But it stans a great chance of making everyone pee in their pants just by getting airborn and also of making everything halt for that time. Even if that is 5 min if it's enough for someone on gnd to escape strikers, it's mission is a success.

 

This made me remind the audio of the F-14 Tomcat VS Libyan aircraft in both encounters where the pilots tone go excited when they sense that AG attack Su-22 Fitters are in intercept course. While it is natural when AA engagements are rare these days, one has to wonder what kind of odds those fighter bombers ever had to make the pilots scream in their pits.

 

"2 more down low 520 knots, lets get out of here!!!"

 

C'mon... geesh.

 

Mig-29A's would make their hearts beat stronger but if those pilots of the F-15's had fought before they would go with confidence and have nothing to write home about. Yugo Migs were in poor condition and had very basic (crude) weapons and equipment, once any modern oponents know their position (either by WACS or better radar), the migs were practicaly doomed. The fulcrum pilots would have to be heroes to win. Not that they would never do it, but chances were very much against them from the start not only in numbers but in quality.

 

Mig-29A's were OK in early 1980's where most engagements were fought well within WVR with each side trying to take to the tail of others. But now adays you can shoot in any aspect. If you dont have the SA provided by modern pit layout you can very well kiss goodbye to your beloved but steam locomotive pit looking airplane. If you dont have missiles that ever had hit anyhting before its even worse. All you can do is to make a stand...and prepare o eject.

 

Same kind of chances DPRK migs would face, it wont take the US aircraft to blow them out of the sky but then there are other more grevious factors to take in account in that scenario.

 

PS nothing personal to yugo's but Im talking about the plane not the people operating it. ;)

[D-Scythe]

In lomac you push your buttom and your AMRAAM is flying away instantaneously.

I remember from the event that after pushing the button on the HOTAS it was taking seconds before the AMRAAM came from his rails!

 

Maybe an idea to model in BS (2 seconds delay after pushing the button)

 

You're kidding, right? It's called ADRENALINE.

[Force_Feedback]

Ok, this is a nice flaming thread, looks like the merrikans all saying the f-15 + aim-120 are the best, and they're great (yes u are, yes u are **petting with hand**). The Yugo dudes trying to bring out some facts, with some nags. And there are some who think the R-77 is the bomb, well, next year the replacement for the R-77 will be shown, and the aim-120 is still being upgraded (then think which one is better and has more potential). The R-77 was 'born' at a bad time, and due to economical constraints, it wasn't what it could have been, and the R-77PD isn't in service anywhere, except at some test range. The R-77 missiles are getting obsolete and will be replaced by a completely new AR homing missile (not the Ks-172, and not that other one), intended for the MFI program. R-77 vs aim-120C= aim-120C range wise, but the R-77 has better high alpha control, making it more agile. Agility is the only dvantage of the r-77 over the aim-120C, but we don't see that in-game either, do we?

 

Oh, I'm getting out of here, just one little 'fact', our airforce (Dutch) didn't have any AIM-120Cs, all they had were aim-120B models, and they have an even longer range than early C blocks, so go figure.