Jump to content

Revisiting the Simple Pick-Up (Directly Vertical) and Hover


Bearfoot
 Share

Recommended Posts

Folks,

 

After a long time away from the stick, I am getting back in the swing of things. I thought I would start exploring the Gazelle more in depth this time (99% of my DCS rotary-wing flying has been in the Huey ...)

 

This has been discussed before, I know, and I know it has been fixed: the pick-up and hover.

 

But, TBH, I have yet to see this be done, and I certainly am having difficult doing it!

 

Now, I can take off smoothly enough -- gentle up on the collective, a WHOLE LOT of right pedal, and I just glide into the air like a poem! Then as speed builds, relax the right pedal, and ease into translational lift flight. Everything goes sweet and smooth!

 

BUT here is the thing: in the take up sequence, I glide FORWARD as well as up, even without any cyclic input.

 

Not a problem if what I want is forward flight. But what about a straight-vertical pick-up and hold in a hover? Intuition says I should apply a little aft cyclic, but that gets me nowhere. So I start looking through various videos of Gazelle take-offs, and it seems EVERYONE is just doing to glide/jump/lurch (depending on finesse) to forward flight! I've not seen any demo yet of a simple yet confident/solid pick-up DIRECTLY VERTICAL (no horizontal displacement) into hover.

 

The pick-up-directly-vertical-into-hover-and-hold took me a LONG time to get down in the Huey, but there were enough folks around who not only said it was possible but showed me how to do it (and to them I am eternally grateful). Looking for similar cues/help for the Gazelle ...

 

EDIT:

 

(1) There is on-going discussion here (https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=180633) where someone posted some tracks that supposedly showed a pick-up into hover; however playing those tracks shows a rather comical lurch-forward-and-up-and-then-down-to-crash-and-burn-on-runway instead. I suspect that this is due to the borked replay system ( :( :( :( DCS ). So maybe a youtube/movie screen capture would be a better way to communicate replay for now?

 

(2) Parts of the aforementioned thread naturally turned into a discussion/disagreement about the flight model. While all the sides have valid points, I would suggest a perspective to work with for now is learning how to fly the DCS version of the Gazelle, regardless of whether or not its FM has problems?


Edited by Bearfoot
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing that many people suggest is to give the trim hat 5 to 6 ticks nose up and 1 tick right. Personally, I don't think it makes a lot of difference, but some people said it changed the take-off a lot for them.

 

Not at my PC right now, but I'll be glad to try and pick it up into a vertical hover later tonight and share the track. :thumbup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing that many people suggest is to give the trim hat 5 to 6 ticks nose up and 1 tick right. Personally, I don't think it makes a lot of difference, but some people said it changed the take-off a lot for them.

 

Not at my PC right now, but I'll be glad to try and pick it up into a vertical hover later tonight and share the track. :thumbup:

 

Thanks! Looking forward to it!

 

Does the trimmer reset affect the fine trim as well as the force trim?

 

I've found the "new" implementation of the force trim very confusing compared to, e.g., the Huey. I understand and like the ability to "lock" the stick at a particular deflection even if it is not reflected in my non-FFB stick. Not a hard concept to get around. But this business of locking a specific attitude of the helicopter .... ? Hmmm ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does the trimmer reset affect the fine trim as well as the force trim?

 

I would think so. TBH, I never ever use trim reset and can't tell for sure.

 

Not sure about the Gazelle, but in the other chopper modules, trim reset is purely fictional. While it might help us return the controls to their default state, it's usually quite brutal when applied in flight. And after flight, i.e. after landing, my helicopter is usually very well trimmed for hover or near-hover, and thus ideally suited for the next takeoff.

 

The only time I'd consider trim reset is when the chopper is trimmed so badly that not resetting it is going to crash me. But then I've usually done something wrong already. :D

 

I've found the "new" implementation of the force trim very confusing compared to, e.g., the Huey. I understand and like the ability to "lock" the stick at a particular deflection even if it is not reflected in my non-FFB stick. Not a hard concept to get around. But this business of locking a specific attitude of the helicopter .... ? Hmmm ...

 

I must admit that I've never really understood the Gazelle's force trim so far. In the early days it felt like it didn't work at all. After a patch it started to feel a little more like I was used to from the other choppers, but still a bit different. I don't use it nearly as much as in the other choppers.

 

And the trim hat had a very nasty bug where cyclic deflections could get inverted near the trimmed "center". I think that was fixed, but truth be told, I'm a little anxious about that whole trim thing in the Gazelle and found out that most of the time I don't need it. Even with a self-centering TM Warthog, the Gazelle usually does what I want it to, which is a bit weird.

 

Not sure if this is a correct representation of the real chopper, but like you said, even if it wasn't, I'll try not to drift this into the "but the FM needs tweaking!" direction. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here you go: Yurgon_1.5.5_SA-342M_TO_Demo.trk, 500 KB, 3 minutes, DCS 1.5.5.

 

It's quite simple: during take-off, I just don't touch the cyclic. ;)

 

For the first take-off, that makes the chopper move forward right away.

 

After touching down, I push the trim hat down 6 times and right once. This time during take-off, the chopper flies backwards a little.

 

After touching down again, I push the trim hat forward once or twice, and the next take-off is near vertical, once again hands-free on the cyclic stick. ;)

 

I then pick it up for some forward speed and altitude, then descend and slow down for touchdown somewhere on the runway centerline.

 

In contrast to what I wrote before, a few notches on the trim hat can really help with a vertical pick-up into hover. :thumbup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was thinking this perhaps is just a little personality of the Gazelle?

 

See the video below around the 2 minute mark, still a slight movement forward

unit the pilot arrests the movement. That's normally as good as I can get it taking off.

 

Edit: Notice what looks to me like a slightly angle up on the skids compared to the ground once in the stationary hover.

 

Once at 2 min mark use the slow 0.25 YouTube speed and compare the movement and angle change against the building to the left.

 

NSJd79w9BD0

 


Edited by David OC

i7-7700K OC @ 5Ghz | ASUS IX Hero MB | ASUS GTX 1080 Ti STRIX | 32GB Corsair 3000Mhz | Corsair H100i V2 Radiator | Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe 500G SSD | Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD | Corsair HX850i Platinum 850W | Oculus Rift | ASUS PG278Q 27-inch, 2560 x 1440, G-SYNC, 144Hz, 1ms | VKB Gunfighter Pro

Chuck's DCS Tutorial Library

Download PDF Tutorial guides to help get up to speed with aircraft quickly and also great for taking a good look at the aircraft available for DCS before purchasing. Link

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here you go: Yurgon_1.5.5_SA-342M_TO_Demo.trk, 500 KB, 3 minutes, DCS 1.5.5.

 

It's quite simple: during take-off, I just don't touch the cyclic. ;)

 

For the first take-off, that makes the chopper move forward right away.

 

After touching down, I push the trim hat down 6 times and right once. This time during take-off, the chopper flies backwards a little.

 

After touching down again, I push the trim hat forward once or twice, and the next take-off is near vertical, once again hands-free on the cyclic stick. ;)

 

I then pick it up for some forward speed and altitude, then descend and slow down for touchdown somewhere on the runway centerline.

 

In contrast to what I wrote before, a few notches on the trim hat can really help with a vertical pick-up into hover. :thumbup:

 

Thank you for this.

 

Unfortunately, the SERIOUSLY borked replay system shows you taking off (with forward momentum) and then flying about for a long time and then slowly coming down to a field somewhere, with the track ending before you land.

 

DCS really should fix the replay ... it is such an important secondary tool for learning, enjoying, and debugging!

 

But on to other things.

 

(1) I tried the 4-6 clicks fine trim aft and 1 fine trim right ....

 

CHAOS!

 

NOTHING made sense!

 

After a while, I figured it out. The controls are reversed! I.e., when pressing the button I have assigned to "trim nose down", the aircraft is trimmed nosed up and vice versa. And same for right wing down and left wing down. Is this a known bug?

 

(2) After reversing my trim buttons to take into account the bug, I find that 4 clicks of aft trim is too little (still movement forward) and 5 is too much (nose goes up and starts moving backward). Cannot get your sweet spot using trim alone. I guess I will experiment with 4 clicks with just a touch of aft cyclic or 5 clicks with just a touch of forward cyclic.

 

(3) I can confirm that the trim reset affects fine (actuator) trim as well as magnetic trim.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was thinking this perhaps is just a little personality of the Gazelle?

 

See the video below around the 2 minute mark, still a slight movement forward

unit the pilot arrests the movement. That's normally as good as I can get it taking off.

 

Edit: Notice what looks to me like a slightly angle up on the skids compared to the ground once in the stationary hover.

 

NSJd79w9BD0

 

 

Thanks for posting this. Yes, I see what you mean about the slight move forward with a little bit of an arrest afterward. To be honest, if I can get it down this little even, I would be thrilled! So, congratulations ... at least I know what I can aspire to with practice.

 

Do you use trim at all? What's your technique? Aft cyclic after lifting?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, the SERIOUSLY borked replay system shows you taking off (with forward momentum) and then flying about for a long time and then slowly coming down to a field somewhere, with the track ending before you land.

 

:(

 

(1) I tried the 4-6 clicks fine trim aft and 1 fine trim right ....

 

CHAOS!

 

NOTHING made sense!

 

After a while, I figured it out. The controls are reversed! I.e., when pressing the button I have assigned to "trim nose down", the aircraft is trimmed nosed up and vice versa. And same for right wing down and left wing down. Is this a known bug?

 

Woah, nope, that's not how it should be.

 

I checked my assignments, but they're correct, trim nose down does indeed trim the nose down etc.

 

I think I already mentioned a previous bug where using the trim hat would invert the normal cyclic behavior; not sure if that's connected to this problem. I think that other bug was fixed a while ago.

 

Can you confirm that you're running the latest DCS 1.5.5?

 

(2) After reversing my trim buttons to take into account the bug, I find that 4 clicks of aft trim is too little (still movement forward) and 5 is too much (nose goes up and starts moving backward). Cannot get your sweet spot using trim alone. I guess I will experiment with 4 clicks with just a touch of aft cyclic or 5 clicks with just a touch of forward cyclic.

 

Yeah; unless I'm trying to demonstrate something, I never fly hands free. :)

 

A little bit of cyclic input is usually required to get the chopper to do the right thing; in the Huey it's a bit more, in the Gazelle a bit less.

 

(3) I can confirm that the trim reset affects fine (actuator) trim as well as magnetic trim.

 

Good to know, thanks! :thumbup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I set the controls the same as Yurgon, a few clicks aft. She will still move forward slightly, better to be forward slightly in a chopper than backwards, you can see a lot more.;)

 

Check your trim by looking at the cyclic stick when sitting on the ground. The stick should move slowly the same way as you are trimming on your joystick hat. Left = Left

Aft = Aft etc.

 

Bearfoot, it just takes some practice and more practice.

 

Take a look at these trainees flying all over the place when starting out IRL. Just like I was lol.

One guy fails the course because he cannot get the landings down and I think he blamed the FM too.:)

 

Flying Soldiers episode 3 - Good series all on YouTube

 

TwuYXZ0foIs

 

Not saying the FM may need a little tweaking perhaps? It's just the level of simulation in DCSW, it's is the best on the market and is as close to IRL as we can get on PC, so a fair bit of practice is of course going to be needed here.


Edited by David OC
  • Like 1

i7-7700K OC @ 5Ghz | ASUS IX Hero MB | ASUS GTX 1080 Ti STRIX | 32GB Corsair 3000Mhz | Corsair H100i V2 Radiator | Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe 500G SSD | Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD | Corsair HX850i Platinum 850W | Oculus Rift | ASUS PG278Q 27-inch, 2560 x 1440, G-SYNC, 144Hz, 1ms | VKB Gunfighter Pro

Chuck's DCS Tutorial Library

Download PDF Tutorial guides to help get up to speed with aircraft quickly and also great for taking a good look at the aircraft available for DCS before purchasing. Link

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Woah, nope, that's not how it should be.

 

I checked my assignments, but they're correct, trim nose down does indeed trim the nose down etc.

 

I think I already mentioned a previous bug where using the trim hat would invert the normal cyclic behavior; not sure if that's connected to this problem. I think that other bug was fixed a while ago.

 

Can you confirm that you're running the latest DCS 1.5.5?

 

Yes, running 1.5.5.

 

I experimented as follows: get into stable flight. Click on button assigned to "trim nose down". No noticeable effect for first few clicks. Then helicopter pitches up. Click "trim reset" button: nose returns to level. Repeated for "trim nose down", "trim left wing down", "trim right wing down", etc., all with similar (i.e., opposite effects). I've been assigning the TMWH POV switch. Will try another switch assignment and see how that works.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Check your trim by looking at the cyclic stick when sitting on the ground. The stick should move slowly the same way as you are trimming on your joystick hat. Left = Left

Aft = Aft etc.

 

So that's the other thing: I see no indication on the control indicator of any displacement no matter which trim button I press or how many times I press it.

 

Looking at my stick itself, whether I press trim nose down or nose up, the stick jerks a little forward and back. Similarly with trim wing right or left: the stick jerks a little to the left and back again.

 

Something is a little weird ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So that's the other thing: I see no indication on the control indicator of any displacement no matter which trim button I press or how many times I press it.

 

Looking at my stick itself, whether I press trim nose down or nose up, the stick jerks a little forward and back. Similarly with trim wing right or left: the stick jerks a little to the left and back again.

 

Something is a little weird ...

 

Ah, the stick displacement becomes clearer when I release trim.

 

So, on the ground I press the button assigned to "trim nose up" a dozen or so times. Each time, the stick jerks a little forward and back again. BUT when I click "trim reset", the stick clearly slips backward a bit. Same with "trim nose down": clicking the button assigned to this a dozen times results in the stick jerking forward a little and then back. But then clicking "trim reset" results in the stick sliding forward.

 

So I can DEFINITELY confirm that on my setup, the trim axes are opposite of what is advertised ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When you go into the control setup screen and hit the key or button it should show up and highlight the Trim Up command in the menu etc. You may need to clear them and reassign the keys. Trimming is a must for this chopper, I fly around making small adjustments all the time, makes it much easier to fly when trimmed out. I do not use the reset or force trim thing at all, its not sensitive enough for this helicopter unless you had a full size cyclic controls.

 

Once this is setup with the chopper running. Hold the trim up and the cyclic controls should keep slowly moving froward and stay there like you moved the cyclic to a new position, the trim is to help get around how our controls snap back to center. (The Trim creates a new center hands off cyclic position) Helicopter controls do not do this centering and stay where you put them IRL.

 

Think of the Gazelle trim just like the trim in a fixed wing aircraft.

 

"trim nose up" = cyclic stick Aft = Aft Trim on joystick hat.


Edited by David OC

i7-7700K OC @ 5Ghz | ASUS IX Hero MB | ASUS GTX 1080 Ti STRIX | 32GB Corsair 3000Mhz | Corsair H100i V2 Radiator | Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe 500G SSD | Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD | Corsair HX850i Platinum 850W | Oculus Rift | ASUS PG278Q 27-inch, 2560 x 1440, G-SYNC, 144Hz, 1ms | VKB Gunfighter Pro

Chuck's DCS Tutorial Library

Download PDF Tutorial guides to help get up to speed with aircraft quickly and also great for taking a good look at the aircraft available for DCS before purchasing. Link

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When you go into the control setup screen and hit the key or button it should show up and highlight the Trim Up command in the menu etc. You may need to clear them and reassign the keys.

 

Ahh, this is quite a useful trick to figure out what I have mapped to what buttons. Trying it confirmed what I thought, i.e., I am correctly mapping what I think should be a trim nose down button to the "trim nose down" function, etc. BUT it is having an opposite effect in the helicopter.

 

Once this is setup with the chopper running. Hold the trim up and the cyclic controls should keep slowly moving froward and stay there like you moved the cyclic to a new position.

 

The total displacement, even after I press the button for a long time, is very slight. It is most clear when releasing the trim and control returns to the center. But again, the trim direction is opposite to what I have assigned the buttons to. I am going to delete my control configuration and repair the installation and see if this fixes things ....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just clear out the and reassign controls

 

DCS will not always assign correct controls automatically as there are many many configurations to guess.

 

Take a look at the instructions here on steam.

How To Setup Controls and Joystick

 

One there click on "Buttons, Switches and Hats" in the side menu.

 

Also see "Axis Tuning" and add a little curvature to smooth out the controls in the pitch and bank.


Edited by David OC

i7-7700K OC @ 5Ghz | ASUS IX Hero MB | ASUS GTX 1080 Ti STRIX | 32GB Corsair 3000Mhz | Corsair H100i V2 Radiator | Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe 500G SSD | Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD | Corsair HX850i Platinum 850W | Oculus Rift | ASUS PG278Q 27-inch, 2560 x 1440, G-SYNC, 144Hz, 1ms | VKB Gunfighter Pro

Chuck's DCS Tutorial Library

Download PDF Tutorial guides to help get up to speed with aircraft quickly and also great for taking a good look at the aircraft available for DCS before purchasing. Link

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just clear out the and reassign controls

 

DCS will not always assign correct controls automatically as there are many many configurations to guess.

 

Take a look at the instructions here on steam.

How To Setup Controls and Joystick

 

One there click on "Buttons, Switches and Hats" in the side menu.

 

Also see "Axis Tuning" and add a little curvature to smooth out the controls in the pitch and bank.

 

Hi David,

 

Thanks.

 

As it happens, I experimented with a clean slate ... with the same results, i.e. reversed trim polarity.

 

Aaand, just to be sure there was nothing I was overlooking, I started with a clean slate and did NOT assign any stick buttons to the trim, but relied on the default keyboard ones.

 

Again: same results, reverse trim polarity.

 

The OCD imp in me would like to figure out why, but on another level I am OK just remapping the buttons since everything seems to work otherwise (i.e., map my hat down to "trim nose down" so as to effect a true trim nose up etc.).

 

I'll try some curves on the cyclic axes as you suggest...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been assigning the TMWH POV switch. Will try another switch assignment and see how that works.

 

From your description, it seems to be working exactly wrong indeed.

 

Do you have "Force Feedback" checked in the game's options? That might lead to weird results with non-FFB sticks like the TM Warthog.

 

I'm guessing this is a no-brainer, but is the switch labeled "Trim" set in the pit? It should be on for every hot start mission, but just in case you do a cold start every time, it's the one switch I'd like to point out just to be extra double sure there's nothing wrong from this end. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From your description, it seems to be working exactly wrong indeed.

 

Do you have "Force Feedback" checked in the game's options? That might lead to weird results with non-FFB sticks like the TM Warthog.

 

 

OMG.

 

OMG.

 

THAT IS IT!

 

THAT IS TOTALLY IT!

 

It WAS checked, and unchecking it got the trim axis behaving properly!

 

I think what was happening was that DCS thought it was dealing with an FFB stick, and so implemented the trim (e.g. 2 clicks aft) by sending a "lock stick aft 2 clicks". This was ignored by the TMWH, which stayed firmly in the center position ... which led DCS to think I was PUSHING the stick forward 2 clicks. And so the reversed behavior!

 

Ha!

 

And, not only that, but it seems unchecking the FFB box made the whole pick-up into hover thing so much easier! Still not there yet, but MUCH closer!

 

THANK YOU!

 

p.s. I tried up-repping you here, as I in fact tried to do earlier, but I keep getting told: "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Yurgon again." . Sorry! But take my verbal +1 instead!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quick video testing controls and just having some fun flying the Gazelle.

 

hG2NvZBndrY

i7-7700K OC @ 5Ghz | ASUS IX Hero MB | ASUS GTX 1080 Ti STRIX | 32GB Corsair 3000Mhz | Corsair H100i V2 Radiator | Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe 500G SSD | Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD | Corsair HX850i Platinum 850W | Oculus Rift | ASUS PG278Q 27-inch, 2560 x 1440, G-SYNC, 144Hz, 1ms | VKB Gunfighter Pro

Chuck's DCS Tutorial Library

Download PDF Tutorial guides to help get up to speed with aircraft quickly and also great for taking a good look at the aircraft available for DCS before purchasing. Link

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the info provided here. I spent a lot of time trying to do the vertical lift to hover in the Gazelle and gave up in the end. I hadn't looked into the systems in detail yet, as I was busy learning other modules, but this gives me confidence to have another go.

 

When I was doing the profiles for my HOTAS, I saw the standard trimming assignments and thought it was an error, like several in the other modules' assignments, and ignored it.

 

Now I am wiser :)

Kneeboard Guides

No longer flying, but still checking in

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quick video testing controls and just having some fun flying the Gazelle.

 

hG2NvZBndrY

 

Nice.

 

VERY nice!

 

Great demonstration of superb flying skills. Shows what is capable with practice, and gives us all a reference.

 

Thanks for sharing (as with Yurgon, you are going to have to take my verbal appreciation as the system is blocking me from up-repping you due to too many up-reps! ...).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

p.s. I tried up-repping you here, as I in fact tried to do earlier, but I keep getting told: "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Yurgon again." . Sorry! But take my verbal +1 instead!

 

LOL no worries, just glad I could help. ;)

 

If you have the time, could you give my track another go? Is it still as bugged as before?

 

I think it shouldn't matter what my or your control settings are, but who knows, maybe the FFB setting messed with the replay?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LOL no worries, just glad I could help. ;)

 

If you have the time, could you give my track another go? Is it still as bugged as before?

 

I think it shouldn't matter what my or your control settings are, but who knows, maybe the FFB setting messed with the replay?

 

Sure, will do so. I think the replays are definitely and deeply borked though, as I've seen other folks reporting the same on other threads. But it will good to test if the FFB setting makes a difference!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...