Unmanouverable?

[selu_99]

hi.

 

ive been playing with the su.27. The problem is that, unlike f15 or su33, it is impossible to turn in a turnfight without stalling, and even then, the plane just turns too slowly. Why does this happen? when flying on a f15 agains a CPU su.27 never happens... why?

[GGTharos]

1. AI Cheats

2. You are not using finesse. At slow speed, the Su-27 will out-turn just about anything ... unless you have a full tank of fuel and all your weapons onboard.

 

REMEMBER! Each R-27 is 250kg. You typically have six, that's 1.5 metric tons!

 

Each R-27E is 350 kg, that's 2.1 metric tons!

 

A full tank of fuel is 9 metric tons or so.

 

 

You need to lose R-27's in a dogfight, and you shouldn't be in a gunfight with more than 50% fuel (less is better). Good pilots can do it with a heavy plane, but it isn't reccomended.

 

Lastly, don't pull on the stick so hard. You can't just keep the stick all the way back, you'll stall /any/ plane out that way, or at least you'll kill allyour speed and fighting ability.

[spugnut]

Another thing to consider: If you're stalling out in a turn, rethink if you should be making it. Only perform high delta-e moves when the situation is desperate. Try pulling off into the vertical instead, a low yo-yo will often serve better than a hard break turn in dogfighting, and any means of breaking out the horizontal is good.

[Lixma 06]

REMEMBER! Each R-27 is 250kg. You typically have six, that's 1.5 metric tons!

 

Each R-27E is 350 kg, that's 2.1 metric tons!

 

:huh:

 

It's only when someone actually writes it out that it dawns on you.

[Ardillita]

Unmanouverable is a term that definitly can not be used to describe the SU-27. You may be are pulling too much of your stick (I have seen this to happen to those who are used to fly with the reduce G option and then sudenly uses the realistic G option)

My advices:

 

1.- As gg said, haveing your fighter fully loaded is not good. But, after you gain experience, it is completly posible to have your fuel fully loaded and your missiles right there and you will still be able to perform a low speed dogfight.

 

2.- If you feel the plane too heavy, remember at any time you car get rid off your missiles, and if that still is not enough, you can dump fuel (wich I really don´t advise you to do, one of my favorites advanteages I see in the SU-27/33 against eagles and other fighters, it is it´s great endurance, if you have a situation where you have a very good pilot in your six, and you are able to succesfully evade his guns for some time, eventually you will force that eagle to disengage because he will run out of fuell much sooner than you)

 

3.- Be carefull with your turns. Your turn capàbilities will be much usefull while you are preparing your shoot and while evadeing your enemy on your 6. If you have a fighter on your six, you might want to use your manouverable SU to perform better manouvers like rolls, yo-yo, erratic movements, etc

 

I hope this help you

[GGTharos]

Unmanouverable is a term that definitly can not be used to describe the SU-27. You may be are pulling too much of your stick (I have seen this to happen to those who are used to fly with the reduce G option and then sudenly uses the realistic G option)

My advices:

 

1.- As gg said, haveing your fighter fully loaded is not good. But, after you gain experience, it is completly posible to have your fuel fully loaded and your missiles right there and you will still be able to perform a low speed dogfight.

 

But only against a poor opponent will you be successful with heavy plane! Otherwise I agree.

 

2.- If you feel the plane too heavy, remember at any time you car get rid off your missiles, and if that still is not enough, you can dump fuel (wich I really don´t advise you to do, one of my favorites advanteages I see in the SU-27/33 against eagles and other fighters, it is it´s great endurance, if you have a situation where you have a very good pilot in your six, and you are able to succesfully evade his guns for some time, eventually you will force that eagle to disengage because he will run out of fuell much sooner than you)

 

Actually the Eagle can match the Su-27's endurance easily with external tanks. It can also drop these tanks before it gets into fight, and if your plane is much heavier than the F-15 or the MiG (or another Su-27) and you have more or less equal pilots, you are dead before anyone runs out of fuel. Most pilots on HL are bad at guns/close combat - I mean, I know /I/ am pretty bad at it, and i still beat people! But if someone who has been training/practicing merges with you, you've got about 60 seconds or less of flying time. He's not going to waste much fuel on you.

 

BUT! If you have equal pilots, and your Su-27 is not too heavily loaded, it should beat an F-15 in an angles game, but if the F-15 starts using energy fighting, the Su-27 will not do as well.

 

what you -want- to do is drag your enemy down to a low and slow fight (but NOT ON YOUR 6!) and you should win - note, this is just a 'typical' setup, there are many more ways and maneuvers you can use.

 

3.- Be carefull with your turns. Your turn capàbilities will be much usefull while you are preparing your shoot and while evadeing your enemy on your 6. If you have a fighter on your six, you might want to use your manouverable SU to perform better manouvers like rolls, yo-yo, erratic movements, etc

 

I hope this help you

 

 

Forget evading your enemy - you should know how to do it, yes. You SHOULD NOT LET IT HAPPEN! Once he's on your six, it is -very- difficult to get rid of him, unless he is far behind you.

Your turn rate is best used to get your nose pointed at the guy so you can shoot. Your turn rate -is- your advantage in the Su-27.

[VVanks]

hi.

 

ive been playing with the su.27. The problem is that, unlike f15 or su33, it is impossible to turn in a turnfight without stalling, and even then, the plane just turns too slowly. Why does this happen? when flying on a f15 agains a CPU su.27 never happens... why?

 

Are you kidding me? Give me a Su 27 and I'll show you how it's flown.

 

And btw are you playing Lockon 1.0? 'Cause they had a bug, which has been fixed in 1.02 AND Su27 was modernized in 1.1.

 

Either it's that, or you're turning the Su at 1000km/h.

 

I can definetly outturn a F-15 in a turn and burn fight.

 

BTW, Su33 and Su27 are practically the same aircraft.

[Ardillita]

But only against a poor opponent will you be successful with heavy plane! Otherwise I agree.

 

 

I desagree in the use of the word "poor", or you may be have not used much the SU. A fully loaded SU still can beat an eagle in turn capability. And Im not giveing my opinion, against excelent IA (training) I did it, and in online fights I do it agains average/good pilots. And at this point, the discussion becomes more complicated, because we are not talking of just pull your stick and point your nose to the enemy, at this point we begin talking about real and precise dogfight maneouvers aimed to get you to a good shooting position wich you won´t get with just being on his 6 and pull some of your stick

 

 

 

Actually the Eagle can match the Su-27's endurance easily with external tanks. It can also drop these tanks before it gets into fight, and if your plane is much heavier than the F-15 or the MiG (or another Su-27) and you have more or less equal pilots, you are dead before anyone runs out of fuel. Most pilots on HL are bad at guns/close combat - I mean, I know /I/ am pretty bad at it, and i still beat people! But if someone who has been training/practicing merges with you, you've got about 60 seconds or less of flying time. He's not going to waste much fuel on you.

 

 

It can? I have seen f15 noline flying in dogfights useing those external tanks... those who never released them, were taken down in just one pass... The eagle with those tanks is pretty heave and loose much turn capability, it is nothing even against a SU with full fuel. If you have somebody on your 6 (wich of course I agree with you that your primary objetive is not get to that situation) you have have just 2 posibilities: your enemy is better than you, in wich case you are almost dead, or you are better, in wich case at the worst case you will be able to make sucessful evasive maneouvers and at least achieve what I said: the eagle will disengage, in no way an eagle can be at your 6 and remain there useing those external tanks. If you have taken down SU 27/33 useing those tanks (with guns of course) well... those SU 27 pilots needs a lot of training.

 

BUT! If you have equal pilots, and your Su-27 is not too heavily loaded, it should beat an F-15 in an angles game, but if the F-15 starts using energy fighting, the Su-27 will not do as well.

 

what you -want- to do is drag your enemy down to a low and slow fight (but NOT ON YOUR 6!) and you should win - note, this is just a 'typical' setup, there are many more ways and maneuvers you can use.

 

If you have equal skilled pilots, there just is only one end for a dogfight: the SU27/33 will win just because something we all know: the SU fighters are much better in close combat aka dogfights. If the eagle wants to use an energy strategy, the conclusion is simple: it can stand for it, since the legs of the SU are larger...

 

 

Forget evading your enemy - you should know how to do it, yes. You SHOULD NOT LET IT HAPPEN! Once he's on your six, it is -very- difficult to get rid of him, unless he is far behind you.

Your turn rate is best used to get your nose pointed at the guy so you can shoot. Your turn rate -is- your advantage in the Su-27.

 

 

Sorry, but your vision of a dogfight here is very simple. You won´t win a dogfight against a good pilot if you plan to just point your nose to him. You are forgetting a whole range of dogfight tactics that are aimed to get you to a good shooting position. And again, if you are at least a little better than your enemy, you perfectly can not only evade his shoots, but also invert the positions and take him down. I have seen a lot of average/good f15 pilots online with many BVR kills that in a dogfight situation are beaten useing a ascending tunel maneover...

 

 

I forgot somthing: if you stall remember this: energy is life. Never never loose conciousness of your air speed, your Gs and your angle of atack. It is not easy, but with time, you will learn to be very aware of this parameters.

[GGTharos]

Dogfights are pretty complex. I wouldn't possibly dream of explaining the concepts of dogfighting in one post, or two, or three, or ten - people have written books on the subject ;)

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Also, check your Joystick curves. When you fly at the edge of the stall speed, one wrong move with the joystick may put you into a spin/stall difficult or impossible to recover.

[EricJ]

BTW, Su33 and Su27 are practically the same aircraft.

 

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one, the Su-33 has lower thrust-to-weight ratio than the Su-27. So even at the same load, the Su-27 can pretty much outturn the -33 and get in a better position, which is why most gunzo players prefer the Su-27 over the -33.

[Ardillita]

Dogfights are pretty complex. I wouldn't possibly dream of explaining the concepts of dogfighting in one post, or two, or three, or ten - people have written books on the subject ;)

 

You are completly right, but it was you who simplified the talking in your previous reply ;)

 

And for those interested in dogfight maneouvers and also missile fights, I recommend this book "Naval Institute - Shaw - Fighter Combat - Tactics and Maneuvering"

 

It is excellent, with graphics and real pilots comments about each tactics.

[ViperEagle]

I have to disagree that the Su-27 will "always" beat an Eagle in a turning and burning fight. If you have a careful hand at manipulating the throttle and joystick, keep your speed between 350 and 550/600 knots, you CAN outturn a Flanker in a WVR/BFM angles fight. NOTE: I did not say it was Easy, and it'll take a while, but you'll find that the Flanker can be on your nose more than not in those conditions. It's all about energy management. Fight low and slow and you're dead.

 

I made a recent post explaining the strengths and weaknesses of each aircraft, however, I will say one thing.

 

The Su-27 isnt a perfect aircraft, it has the same laws applied to it as the Eagle does, and it can be beaten in a turning fight. When you take two aircraft of fairly similar abilities and two pilots of similar skill, it will come down to luck and circumstance as to who wins.

 

A smart and careful F-15 pilot wouldnt let the Flanker survive past BVR anyway, but if this happened, the F-15 pilot also can beat a Flanker.

 

The two aircraft arent as different as they seem. Their design histories are only off by a few years, and they also have very similar capabilities.