Is losing Radar Lock still a thing?

[red_coreSix]

But still point being that TWS should drop guidance locks to maneuvering target and rendering the missile useless.

 

No, it really shouldn't. The radar beam, especially at long ranges, is pretty big. Assuming similar performance to the APG-63 (gimbal-speed wise) there might be a maximum of four seconds between dwells.

A fighter won't maneuver out of the radar coverage in four seconds, and even if he would, the radar would go into memory mode and start a grid-search in the vicinity of the last known vector.

At really close range you might experience a dropped track, but at that point you would've switched to STT already anyways.

[Fri13]

No, it really shouldn't. The radar beam, especially at long ranges, is pretty big. Assuming similar performance to the APG-63 (gimbal-speed wise) there might be a maximum of four seconds between dwells.

A fighter won't maneuver out of the radar coverage in four seconds, and even if he would, the radar would go into memory mode and start a grid-search in the vicinity of the last known vector.

At really close range you might experience a dropped track, but at that point you would've switched to STT already anyways.

The discussed distance was 15nm (~30km) and below. Forfurther distances a different modes again based targets types.

[Wacko_ZA]

I have yet to score a hit against anything other than the AWACS or tankers in multiplayer with the S530D.

 

But it still does it's job pretty well, putting the target on the defensive so I can close in for the kill. The few kills I've managed to rack up with the M2000C (using the MagicII and guns) I've managed to hold lock at least 50% of the time. I also switch to HUD mode as soon as I lose the lock, and that usually reacquires the target very quickly.

 

dont blame the weapon, blame the operator :megalol:

 

${1}

${1}

[red_coreSix]

Just to add, this is completely ignoring the fact of how TWS works. It's track while SCAN. So how could the radar "drop lock" on a maneuvering target? In TWS you're still scanning the entire airspace around the target as well, refreshing about every four seconds. Granted it's a somewhat slow update rate against a hard maneuvering target but that doesn't matter, it's not meant to guide the missile to impact...

[OnlyforDCS]

They're not that bad. You need to help them a bit. Launching at maximum range is not going to help you much, except put the enemy on the defensive. Launching when you have the double circle helps, also, the closer you get the better. Make sure you are going as fast as possible and launch the missile while pointing to the intercept director.

 

Real missiles don't have a high hit percentage against maneuvering targets, expect to use 2 missiles to get a kill.

 

Max range? Who's talking about max range? I only ever launch within the "no escape" zone. Maybe a mile out or two for the first launch. Still I have not yet scored a hit against a fighter in multiplayer with them. They did do their job in quite a bit of situations and let me close in for the MagicII kill or guns.

 

This is multiplayer remember, most people will start chaffing as soon as they get launch warning. This is not a rant in any case or fashion, just a statement of fact.

Edited February 16, 2017 by OnlyforDCS

[Fri13]

Max range? Who's talking about max range? I only ever launch withing the "no escape" zone. Maybe a mile out or two for the first launch. Still I have not yet scored a hit against a fighter in multiplayer with them. They did do their job in quite a bit of situations and let me close in for the MagicII kill or guns.

Did you maneuver a lot or even roll more than a 15-20°?

[OnlyforDCS]

Did you maneuver a lot or even roll more than a 15-20°?

 

Why would that make a difference when the missile is already off the rail?

[Fri13]

Just to add, this is completely ignoring the fact of how TWS works. It's track while SCAN. So how could the radar "drop lock" on a maneuvering target? In TWS you're still scanning the entire airspace around the target as well, refreshing about every four seconds. Granted it's a somewhat slow update rate against a hard maneuvering target but that doesn't matter, it's not meant to guide the missile to impact...

TWS is guiding missile to intercept point. And every lag causes the missile get a new intercept point late and radically wasting energy so it can't anymore get to the intercept point.

 

4 seconds sounds little, but in that time intercept point can be totally different place, requiring radical correction, and again 4s later a another radical intercept point, all while the target just barely moves.

 

Even a 1-2 seconds is a lot in those calculations, why a STT keeps maximum probability by constantly feeding the intercept point.

[Fri13]

Why would that make a difference when the missile is already off the rail?

The radar capability track a fast moving target.

 

The target doesn't need to move fast, your radar can as well tilt fast and lose a track.

 

If you stand on your hands, world aint upside down even when it looks to you that way.

[OnlyforDCS]

Why are you even discussing TWS? The radar automatically goes STT before the launch (assuming you did not go into STT previously).

[lemoen]

Max range? Who's talking about max range? I only ever launch within the "no escape" zone. Maybe a mile out or two for the first launch. Still I have not yet scored a hit against a fighter in multiplayer with them. They did do their job in quite a bit of situations and let me close in for the MagicII kill or guns.

 

This is multiplayer remember, most people will start chaffing as soon as they get launch warning. This is not a rant in any case or fashion, just a statement of fact.

 

 

I dunno, I prob get a kill every two or three 530s I launch against maneuvering planes. Mostly M2000s and Su27s and the 27s go down a lot easier than the m2000s. Prob their larger size == larger RCS. The Magics have a much better hit ratio. I've shot down a lot of planes with 530s on Blue Flag, hence I'm wondering about whether you are in a reasonable position, giving the missile the straightest path to the target as possible.

[Fri13]

Why are you even discussing TWS? The radar automatically goes STT before the launch (assuming you did not go into STT previously).

Check the discussions.

The point why STT is anyways the correct way to go because target speeds. And that same thinf applies to STT.

 

If you maneuver radically and target does same, the precision to stay locked suffers.

[OnlyforDCS]

The radar capability track a fast moving target.

 

The target doesn't need to move fast, your radar can as well tilt fast and lose a track.

 

If you stand on your hands, world aint upside down even when it looks to you that way.

 

You probably misunderstood me. I don't find that the radar drops lock all that often. When it does happen I find it's very easy to reacquire it. The discussion is about holding lock after launch right?

The Mirage2000C & S530D do not have TWS launch and track capability.

Edited February 16, 2017 by OnlyforDCS

[red_coreSix]

Check the discussions.

The point why STT is anyways the correct way to go because target speeds. And that same thinf applies to STT.

 

If you maneuver radically and target does same, the precision to stay locked suffers.

 

LOL, you do know how a gimbal works right? How do radars work in dogfights then if I may ask, if they're so terrible when you and the target are maneuvering...

[Bacab]

It would be nice if you could discuss the performances of the F-16 radar in another thread. It would make this thread easier to read.

[Fri13]

It would be nice if you could discuss the performances of the F-16 radar in another thread. It would make this thread easier to read.

Not about F-16 but overall when guiding missile in like M2KC with 530D.

[Fri13]

LOL, you do know how a gimbal works right? How do radars work in dogfights then if I may ask, if they're so terrible when you and the target are maneuvering...

You do know that the are launch parameters that are optimal and what ain't?

 

Radical maneuvering doesn't make things any easier at close range.

 

And even questioning about gimbals makes you look bad.

 

A few degree beam and multiple degreed per second pulls, rolling, target doing same etc and systems are having challenge. And there ain't even chaff in the combinations.

 

I have had a STT lock on a C-130 from below horizon from a 3km range and suddenly lock is lost and 530 is gone.

 

But then again i have had a notching F-15C in ground level 3km below me and get perfect hits with 90% success rate.

[Bacab]

Not about F-16 but overall when guiding missile in like M2KC with 530D.

No. The missile guidance are completely differerent and the problem with TWS is really specific to the version of the radar on-board the F-16.

[red_coreSix]

Radical maneuvering doesn't make things any easier at close range.

 

Yeah, that's literally what I said. But it won't cause any issues in STT, period.

[fixen]

I'll take the thread back to its initial point. What I find that helps getting a 530 kill reliably is staying at a significantly lower altitude than your target aircraft. That will mean your target can shoot you from further away, but you also have more chance dodging when low. Your missile guidance and radar lock stability will be greatly increased when the background is clear sky instead of the ground. I will usually put the target on a 40 to 60 degree beam when running in on the target. That way you maximise the distance the enemy missile has to travel to get you, negating the range difference a bit. When I start to get in range I will start turning in towards the intercept marker and fire the first missile. After that I immediately put the target back at a 60 degree edge of radar and sometimes quickly switch sides when a missile is following me, dropping chaff.

[Jugdriver]

Max range? Who's talking about max range? I only ever launch within the "no escape" zone. Maybe a mile out or two for the first launch. Still I have not yet scored a hit against a fighter in multiplayer with them.

 

The Majority of my kills are with the 530, and I am an almost exclusive multiplayer pilot. That said I fly Blue Flag mostly and the 530 is up against R27-R and AIM-7 which gives it an advantage.

 

I do lose lock in PIC/STT on a Regular basis but most of the time it is against a maneuvering target or one using the ground to mask, which appears to be the correct behavior and only occastionally do I lose lock in PIC/STT for no apparent reason. PID/TWS is another story, it drops contacts every time for no appaernt reason, but this is a known bug.

 

JD

AKA_MattE

[OnlyforDCS]

The Majority of my kills are with the 530, and I am an almost exclusive multiplayer pilot. That said I fly Blue Flag mostly and the 530 is up against R27-R and AIM-7 which gives it an advantage.

 

I do lose lock in PIC/STT on a Regular basis but most of the time it is against a maneuvering target or one using the ground to mask, which appears to be the correct behavior and only occastionally do I lose lock in PIC/STT for no apparent reason. PID/TWS is another story, it drops contacts every time for no appaernt reason, but this is a known bug.

 

JD

AKA_MattE

 

Hmmm, maybe I should try the Blue Flag server? I've not flown it yet. I fly mostly on 104th and Open Conflict.

[Jugdriver]

Hmmm, maybe I should try the Blue Flag server? I've not flown it yet. I fly mostly on 104th and Open Conflict.

 

The 104th and Open Conflict are great servers. Blue Flag is a lot of fun, I like the format as it is a campaign and I am a campaign pilot. That said the server/environment is only part of the equation with the 530, the other side is how the RDI works and some of its quirks like it’s issue with dropping contacts in PID/TWS (among others). I will lock a contact in PID/TWS get the information I need then unlock it so the contact does not drop off, then relock it in PID/TWS as I get close to the shot, then hard lock it manually before I fire (which is not really necessary as JoJo pointed out, it is just how I do it).

 

If you fly in Blue Flag note that the first time you are on the server (or if the campaign phase resets) you have to type “Blue” or “Red” (no quotes) in the chat so that you are assigned to a side and you then can only fly that side for the rest of the phase. Also know that the Mirage is on both sides in Blue flag.

 

JD

AKA_MattE

Edited February 16, 2017 by Jugdriver

[OnlyforDCS]

The 104th and Open Conflict are great servers. Blue Flag is a lot of fun, I like the format as it is a campaign and I am a campaign pilot. That said the server/environment is only part of the equation with the 530, the other side is how the RDI works and some of its quirks like it’s issue with dropping contacts in PID/TWS (among others). I will lock a contact in PID/TWS get the information I need then unlock it so the contact does not drop off, then relock it in PID/TWS as I get close to the shot, then hard lock it manually before I fire.

 

If you fly in Blue Flag note that the first time you are on the server (or if the campaign phase resets) you have to type “Blue” or “Red” (no quotes) in the chat so that you are assigned to a side and you then can only fly that side for the rest of the phase.

 

JD

AKA_MattE

 

Thanks for the tip. Will definitely try it, I too try and follow rules and procedures when flying online. Instead of just you know "Airquaking it" so to speak. Really dig the Mirage, I don't mind being the underdog, its really fun, but I wouldn't mind being top dog once in a while :)

[myHelljumper]

I don't think the PID lock issue is a bug, I see it more as a feature.