JTAC at Night

[pdmarsh]

I placed a Reaper JTAC in a mission and assigned a number of targets using "FAC - Engage Group." The mission was meant to have an early AM start, but I have found that JTAC won't call targets until there is more light, i.e. a later start. With regard to standard sensors, this would make sense, but I would have assumed that modern JTAC would have some low light and/or IR capability. Also, I have read posts where it's stated that JTAC will illuminate targets at night with a laser designator. How can they lase if they don't see the target in the first place? I tested the option to make the targets visible, which I understand means LOS is not required, but it had no benefit with regard to the light situation.

 

Should an airborne JTAC be able to see and call targets at night? If so, are there any settings I should be checking to make sure it will work? With enough light it does work, so there would have to be something that specifically needs to be done to get it to work at night or in very low light conditions.

 

Thanks,

Paul

[ex81]

The same happend to me. Early morning with low light seems to be a problem for JTACs.

But on the other hand I found out that the distance to the target can also be critical.

Moving the JTAC just a little further sometimes helps.

I would choose IR pointer in the setup. And a clear LOS.

But the experts will bring up solutions soon. I`m sure.

[pdmarsh]

Thanks ex81. I'll do more experimenting. I'd hate to have to give up the the desired lighting effect in the mission. I'll figure something out.

 

Paul

[SUNTSAG]

Hi Have you tried the JTAC scripted method aviailable via the CTLD script at all?

 

I know it doesn't have the detailed level of interaction associated with the in-sim scenario but it does have some seriously cool aspects including not having to designate specific targets in the mission editor during the mission build.

 

It also has night functionality, I have tried and tested that. It might solve your problem longer term, if all else fails. Cheers

[pdmarsh]

@Suntsag -- I didn't think of CTLD. Thanks for pointing it out. I have used it in other missions, but never for it's JTAC capabilities.

 

Paul

[Home Fries]

Dock Strike getting a buff?

[Grimes]

Yes the sensors do play into it, but a RQ-9 does have a FLIR sensor available to it so it should be able to locate a target for FAC. Targets moving and shooting also plays a role.

 

Out of curiosity are you using Perform Task>FAC Engage group or Start En-route task>FAC Engage Group? I am pretty certain the perform task version will force the FAC to target the group while the enroute version requires it to acquire the target with its sensors first.

 

Can you supply the test mission or at least info on the full date of the mission and time of day?

[pdmarsh]

Dock Strike getting a buff?

 

Yeah, I was testing the A-10 mission in Dock Strike and found that JTAC was not working as intended. During the first run, we must have contacted it late in the mission with more available light and thought it was working.

 

Thanks,

Paul

[pdmarsh]

@Grimes -- Thanks for your response. The mission file is attached. The quickest way to test is to jump into one of the A-10Cs, which I have put on a hot ramp start. Change frequency to 133 MHz, then wait about 30 seconds to allow JTAC to get on station. Contact JTAC and it will respond with no targets available.

 

The mission start is 7:45 AM in October. There is some cloud cover and fog, but I found that eliminating these has a lot less effect than simply changing the start time to later in the morning, at which point JTAC will see targets. I am using "Perform Task > FAC Engage Group."

 

After a fair amount of experimenting, I did find one method to not only get JTAC to see the assigned groups, but to assign them ahead of any un-assigned targets in the area. I believe the fact that "FAC-a-ref" appears at the top of the task list forces JTAC to do standard spotting before getting to the assigned target list. Also, without the tweak I found, "FAC-a-ref" cannot be moved down in the list. I found that if I actually edit the "FAC-a-ref" task and make it one of the "FAC Engage Group" tasks, suddenly things begin working, although not perfectly. I can get another "FAC-a-ref" task to be generated by changing the group task to "Nothing" and then back to "AFAC." Now, "FAC-a-ref" can be moved below the "Engage Group" tasks. It's a hack, but it seems to work. There are problems with this, but it's too much to go into.

 

Finally, I forgot that when I had JTAC issues in another mission I was working on some time ago, someone suggested to use the triggered function routine for the "FAC > Engage Group" tasks. That worked great and I intend to test it in this mission.

 

Thanks,

Paul

Dock Strike Test.zip

[Grimes]

The FAC-A-ref is basically just a continuation of the first enroute task given to the group. Because it is an enroute task it will have a higher "priority" over the other tasks you may give it because it was assigned at an earlier waypoint.

[pdmarsh]

Thanks Grimes. One problem with the hack I found is that while JTAC will see and call the targets, it does not send the location over data link, it just provides coordinates and says "Clear to engage."

 

So far, the best method I have found to get JTAC to work under the conditions in this mission is to create triggered actions for the "FAC Engage Group" tasks. I then create a trigger with a "Time More/30 seconds" condition and create the list of target tasks. However, after JTAC works through this list, it goes back to not being able to see other targets in the area. If you call JTAC, it just says "no further tasking available."

 

So, the big question is this--Is JTAC broken or is this expected behavior?

 

Thanks,

Paul

[Grimes]

Potentially a few different factors are playing into it. Proximity of friendlies and distance of the JTAC to the target play a role in determining the type of control the JTAC will assign for a given target. If no friendlies are nearby it may just do type 3 and doesn't bother with datalink.

 

Once it goes through the list it might simply not see the other targets. I've never tested a JTAC unit along with the scripting functions to get its detected targets, so that might be an interesting experiment to run.

 

I'd have to do some testing to definitively give you an answer if it is broken or that behavior is normal. It'd probably be a good idea for me to write a JTAC guide based on said testing.

[pdmarsh]

Thanks Grimes. As to whether or not JTAC is broken, I was also thinking about its ability to see targets at night. Given that all I have to do is change the start time to get it to see targets tells me it must be broken. I can force it to see targets at night or in dark conditions using the methods I described, so I assume it can and should work in those lighting conditions. These are static targets, so nothing changes in the mission except time and light.

 

In a totally separate vein, I also discovered that JTAC will only see targets the are in the mission when it, JTAC, spawns. Using the triggered action method I can, once again, force it to see such targets. When I create the trigger, all I have to do is place the unspawned targets at the top of the action list. If they are not yet in mission, JTAC will simply call the next target in the list. As soon as one of the new targets spawn, it will call that target before others lower on the list. It appears that the target list in the trigger is constantly being scanned. However, unless I force JTAC to see newly spawned targets, it will never call them. I used a different method to fix this in an earlier mission. I deactivate the first JTAC and have a new JTAC spawn after new targets have spawned in the mission.

 

I hope this helps in some way.

 

Paul

[AG-51_Razor]

I have used this script: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=141297 at night (2300) and the JTAC not only lased the target for me, you could see the laser through the NVG's as a line from the JTAC right to the target. A very cool effect! I do believe that it may have something to do with distance to the target. I had him up on a hill looking down on a road where the tanks were and the slant range was probably only a little over a mile.

 

 

I also tried to use a Reaper as the JTAC with absolutely no success, day or night.

[DarkFire]

I'm planning on using a JTAC for a mission I'm writing. Early stages yet so this thread is very useful :thumbup:

 

Is there a list anywhere of what units (ground & air) are capable of performing the JTAC role in-game, both NATO & Russian?