IAF Su-30MKI defeaded UK F3 Tornados. Next the EF2000...

[LaRata]

FWIW-

 

The AMRAAMS fired at the Iraqi MiG-25 were fired when the target was at near max range, and going at least 1.5 Mach, if not faster, and going away. No missile would be able to overcome that headstart, plus with the MiG-25's high topend speed, it's not really shocking.

 

Also the F-14 fired two AIM-54 at the Mig-25

 

The USAF doesnt turn down DACT offers due to "fear of looking bad", more so because the Rafale is not a likely threat aircraft, or because the French may have wanted certain things that the USAF would not agree to.

 

Or the US know the F-15C are no Match for the Rafale.

 

The R-77 is equal to the baseline AMRAAM, however, the Aim-120A's and B's arent nearly as common now as C's, each AMRAAM model is gaining increased range and sensors with each succession.

 

Also New R-77 are in test by now

 

AND..no F-15's have been lost in actual combat. Despite what "some media sources" claim, there have been no A,B,C or D models lost in actual combat. I can find sources claiming that B-2 Spirit steath bombers have been shot down, despite that every serial number produced is still in service..so..I can throw that line too.

 

Did you post any site to say B-2 are been shot down ? other that are not come from Yugoslavia. This was false information that not be compared for the Israeli F-15 shot down case. The only was the F-117 . Remember that the NATO do not admit the F-117 shot down for 3 days until the Serb. find the cockpit. and sure no B-2 have been shot down until today.

 

" so..I can throw that line too. " this was your opinion :) I have remember; not sure I have one book that explain how the Israeli F-15 was shot Down. The Syrian site will use at this time 2 x Mig-25 and one Mig-21. I try tomorow when I return Home.

 

 

The MiG-25 kill on the Hornet and Predator are mostly confirmed via US and outside sources, so that I accept.

 

The F-15 has the best combat record of any aircraft in history, with a 100+ to ZERO kill ratio, and it will likely retire with that ratio intact. The F-15 was produced and was decades ahead of it's time, and in some ways, with the continued upgrades, is still on the pointy end of the spear.

 

 

Luis "LaRata" Barreto

[D-Scythe]

ViperEagle, why even bother?

[GGTharos]

Also the F-14 fired two AIM-54 at the Mig-25

 

And? :) Phoenix missiles aren't magical ... if the 25 turns around and runs, it dodges them. :)

 

Or the US know the F-15C are no Match for the Rafale.

 

Or maybe they also know they supply components to the French and know how to defeat them anyway?

 

Also New R-77 are in test by now

 

So are new AMRAAMs - no wait, new AMRAAMs are being DEPLOYED, for the uh, like, 14th time now? ;)

 

Did you post any site to say B-2 are been shot down ? other that are not come from Yugoslavia. This was false information that not be compared for the Israeli F-15 shot down case. The only was the F-117 . Remember that the NATO do not admit the F-117 shot down for 3 days until the Serb. find the cockpit. and sure no B-2 have been shot down until today.

 

Keep in mind that to rescue their pilot they may not want to admit it. Also 2 F-117's were hit, the one that was shot down, and another which landed back at base - it was hit badly enough that it will never fly again, IIRC.

 

As for what's written below: No F-15 has been shot down in air to air combat. Don't kid yourself :)

Israeli F-15's fly in pairs minimum, 2 MiG-25's and one MiG-21 aren't enough to deal with a pair of F-15's. Both are fairly outdated aircraft (as found in service of Syria at that time) and the Israeli pilots would have had to make a rather big mistake to be shot down. Syrian pilots don't have 1/10th the training and practice that the Israelis do.

 

" so..I can throw that line too. " this was your opinion :) I have remember; not sure I have one book that explain how the Israeli F-15 was shot Down. The Syrian site will use at this time 2 x Mig-25 and one Mig-21. I try tomorow when I return Home.

[LaRata]

Well check this out then:

The Knife Fight

 

By September 2001, the situation detoriated further, especially so after the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, which made both the SyAAF and the IDF/AF extremely nervous. Exactly this provoked the so far heaviest incident in the recent history of Syrian-Israeli aerial clashes.

 

On 14 September 2001, an IDF/AF Boeing 707, equipped for SIGINT-reconnaissance, was on a mission along the Lebanese and Syrian coast, collecting Syrian defense informations, monitoring foremost telecommunications and radar tags in the Tarabulus (Tripolis) and Hamidiyali areas. The plane was underway at 520 knots and 30.000ft, and escorted by two F-15Cs, at least one of which carried the newest Python Mk.IV air-to-air missiles.

 

The IDF/AF flew similar missions in the area at least twice a week since quite some times, and – as usually – the SyAAF scrambled two interceptors to shadow the “ferret”: the Syrians would always monitor the operations of Israeli reconnaissance aircraft, sending either MiG-23s from Abu ad-Duhor AB, or – less often – MiG-29s from Tsaykal, forward deployed at al-Ladhiqiyah, would get the honor to fly such missions over the Mediterranean Sea. So far, the Syrians have always taken care to stay at least some 20 kilometers away from Israeli planes, and never showed any interest in attacking the Israelis.

 

But, on this day, at 0914hrs, the two MiG-29s sent to shadow the Boeing 707 suddenly turned towards the Israeli aircraft and increased their speed. For the pilots of the two Israeli F-15s in escort this was not only surprising, but also an obviously aggressive maneuver. Due to the short range, there was no time to ask questions: the MiGs turned towards the Israeli planes in aggressive manner, and could open fire any moment.

 

The leader of the F-15-pair ordered the Boeing to instantly distance from the area and engage ECM systems, and then called his ground control for help and reinforcements (as a result of this call, six more F-15s and six F-16s were scrambled, along a single Boeing 707 tanker). Moment later, he warned the Syrian MiG-29 pilots on the international distress frequency to change their course. As the MiGs failed to response, the Eagles moved into attack.

 

One of the F-15s attacked the lead Syrian MiG-29 from above, closing directly out of the rising sun, and launching a single Python Mk.IV from an off-boresight angle of 40 degrees. The missile guided properly and hit the MiG above the left wing, immediately setting it afire.

The other MiG-29 banked hard right, apparently heading back to Syria, but it was too late, as the second F-15 was already too close: the pilot launched a single AIM-9M Sidewinder from a range of only 500 meters. The missile slammed into the target, crashing it into the sea.

 

Both Syrian pilots, Maj. Arshad Midhat Mubarak, and Capt. Ahmad al-Khatab, ejected safely and were recovered by Syrian ships. The names of the involved Israeli F-15-pilots remain unknown.

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_437.shtml

 

The latest F-15 action where actual missiles were fired.

 

Yes I know this event at the media. Some say that the F-16 shot down the Mig-29 and not the F-15.

 

But the planes was not the EF2000, Rafale or new Su-27Sm/35/30 :)

 

The Syrian AF today are no match for the IAF.

 

Luis"LaRata" Barreto

[GGTharos]

The Syrian AF wouldn't be a match even if they had EF2000 Su-27Sm/35/30 ;)

 

And even then the only aircraft that has technological parity with the F-15 /today/ is the EF2000, not any Su model. Russian manufacturing is having difficulty producing stable electronics right now, wether you like it or not ;)

[ViperEagle]

Because.....

 

 

I dont know why, something about people dragging me down to their level..

 

 

Nah..I give up.

[LaRata]

Also the F-14 fired two AIM-54 at the Mig-25

 

And? :) Phoenix missiles aren't magical ... if the 25 turns around and runs, it dodges them. :)

 

Or the US know the F-15C are no Match for the Rafale.

 

Or maybe they also know they supply components to the French and know how to defeat them anyway?

 

Also New R-77 are in test by now

 

So are new AMRAAMs - no wait, new AMRAAMs are being DEPLOYED, for the uh, like, 14th time now? ;)

 

Did you post any site to say B-2 are been shot down ? other that are not come from Yugoslavia. This was false information that not be compared for the Israeli F-15 shot down case. The only was the F-117 . Remember that the NATO do not admit the F-117 shot down for 3 days until the Serb. find the cockpit. and sure no B-2 have been shot down until today.

 

Keep in mind that to rescue their pilot they may not want to admit it. Also 2 F-117's were hit, the one that was shot down, and another which landed back at base - it was hit badly enough that it will never fly again, IIRC.

 

As for what's written below: No F-15 has been shot down in air to air combat. Don't kid yourself :)

Israeli F-15's fly in pairs minimum, 2 MiG-25's and one MiG-21 aren't enough to deal with a pair of F-15's. Both are fairly outdated aircraft (as found in service of Syria at that time) and the Israeli pilots would have had to make a rather big mistake to be shot down. Syrian pilots don't have 1/10th the training and practice that the Israelis do.

 

" so..I can throw that line too. " this was your opinion :) I have remember; not sure I have one book that explain how the Israeli F-15 was shot Down. The Syrian site will use at this time 2 x Mig-25 and one Mig-21. I try tomorow when I return Home.

 

" Israeli F-15's fly in pairs minimum, 2 MiG-25's and one MiG-21 aren't enough to deal with a pair of F-15's." ...Yes I have the same opinion. :) But the report say at this time only will be one F-15 and one E2-C. The F-15 will goin to face the Mig-21 and then the E2-C alert the F-15 that have one Mig-25 but the E2-C and the F-15 not see the second Mig-25. Then the second Mig-25 fire at the F-15 from the 6 o`clock.

 

Luis"LaRata" Barreto

[GGTharos]

And I can call BS right now.

 

One F-15C guarding an E-2C? ;) I don't think so. Story ain't true.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Surely you jest. Syria would NEVER say something that wasn't true about a fight against the Israelis, GG. :smilewink:

 

Pilotasso, what's wrong with ACIG? Is there some specific piece of info you read on there that made you not trust them? I know their story about Oyster flight is pretty accurate anyway, and that's something they could have easily fudged on because there was never much press for the commander of that operation, even though he was one of very few pilots with at least 3 kills to his credit.

[Tovan]

Originally Posted by GGTharos

 

Or the US know the F-15C are no Match for the Rafale.

 

Or maybe they also know they supply components to the French and know how to defeat them anyway?

 

 

Ain't true the French do all their electronics and components by Thales and Sagem(Safran Group), the engines by Snecma, the airplane itself by Dassault, the 30mm canon by Giat Industries now known as Nexter, and missiles and seekers by MBDA/Thales, some missiles like the Meteor are also six partner nations.(UK,French,Germany,Italy,Spain and Sweden) The only thing that it's not French is the ejection seat made by Martin Baker.(UK)

[GGTharos]

D'oh, I think I confused it with Gripen! IIRC the engines comes from the US, or something of the sort.

[ViperEagle]

Thats right, the US did supply alot of components for the Gripen.

 

The most obvious is the engine, which is the same that powers the Legacy F/A-18's.

[D-Scythe]

Pretty sure the Gripen gets it's engines from Volvo, not the U.S. The RM12 is a development of the GE F404 (confirm?), but the Swedes have done a lot of things with it that should set the RM12 as something like the cousin of the wife of the uncle of the brother of the mother-in-law of the GE F400 family.

 

Anyway, this stuff/crap about beating the F-15C is pointless - if the Eurofighter can't beat a 20 year-old Eagle air-to-air, something is seriously wrong with the European aerospace industry.

 

Also consider if anyone even bothered to give the Eagle another MSIP-like upgrade, chances are it'll easily rip apart anything in the sky with a good pilot on board (cept an F-22). Hell, just add stuff that aren't even new - the APG-63V2/3 AESA, some cheap RAM/ECM/RWR upgrades, and the 15E's 229 engines from 15 years ago - it already has datalink, GPS, AIM-120C/D, JHMCS and AIM-9X - and you'll have super-cruising fighter that comes second only to the Raptor.

 

Consider the *one* time they put -229 engines in a F-15C over Edwards, the thing went Mach 2.8 before the canopy started to melt. And there are *much* better engines available nowadays.

 

The only reason why anything comes close to the F-15C right now is because no more money is being put into it, allowing its competitors to catch up. The fact that its 40 year old design has the potential to stay at the top of the A/A food chain speaks sh!tloads about the folks at McDonnell Douglas who built them back in the day.

[X-man]

Pretty sure the Gripen gets it's engines from Volvo, not the U.S. The RM12 is a development of the GE F404 (confirm?), but the Swedes have done a lot of things with it that should set the RM12 as something like the cousin of the wife of the uncle of the brother of the mother-in-law of the GE F400 family.

 

Confirm! :)

[ViperEagle]

Pretty sure the Gripen gets it's engines from Volvo, not the U.S. The RM12 is a development of the GE F404 (confirm?), but the Swedes have done a lot of things with it that should set the RM12 as something like the cousin of the wife of the uncle of the brother of the mother-in-law of the GE F400 family.

 

Anyway, this stuff/crap about beating the F-15C is pointless - if the Eurofighter can't beat a 20 year-old Eagle air-to-air, something is seriously wrong with the European aerospace industry.

 

Also consider if anyone even bothered to give the Eagle another MSIP-like upgrade, chances are it'll easily rip apart anything in the sky with a good pilot on board (cept an F-22). Hell, just add stuff that aren't even new - the APG-63V2/3 AESA, some cheap RAM/ECM/RWR upgrades, and the 15E's 229 engines from 15 years ago - it already has datalink, GPS, AIM-120C/D, JHMCS and AIM-9X - and you'll have super-cruising fighter that comes second only to the Raptor.

 

Consider the *one* time they put -229 engines in a F-15C over Edwards, the thing went Mach 2.8 before the canopy started to melt. And there are *much* better engines available nowadays.

 

The only reason why anything comes close to the F-15C right now is because no more money is being put into it, allowing its competitors to catch up. The fact that its 40 year old design has the potential to stay at the top of the A/A food chain speaks sh!tloads about the folks at McDonnell Douglas who built them back in the day.

 

In September of this year, the Air Force announced it's intentions to fit about 180 of it's best F-15's with the APG-63V3 AESA radar. So that is already happening. Adding the Dash 229 engines would be a bit more of a challenge, as it would require strengthing the airframe and doing stress tests on it.

 

And, IIRC, both a F-15A and a F-15C were refitted with -229's, and both were a waaaaay hot Eagle.

[D-Scythe]

In September of this year, the Air Force announced it's intentions to fit about 180 of it's best F-15's with the APG-63V3 AESA radar. So that is already happening. Adding the Dash 229 engines would be a bit more of a challenge, as it would require strengthing the airframe and doing stress tests on it.

 

And, IIRC, both a F-15A and a F-15C were refitted with -229's, and both were a waaaaay hot Eagle.

 

The -229 is powerful - indeed, CFT-less F-15Es can supercruise clean - but dated. Although it can be retrofitted into the F-15C, the Eagle can easily be modified to accommodate the newer F100-PW-229A engines instead, developed for Block 60+ F-16s. I think it can be scaled to produce something like 36 000lb of thrust, and can TVC if so desired by the customer.

 

That pushes the thrust-to-weight ratio out of the 1.5-to-1 ballpark for a fully loaded Eagle, btw.

 

Defensively the F-15 would need an overhaul as well although again, it would probably be a low-cost, quick process using existing equipment. Boeing could easily rip flight computers, ECM/towed decoys/chaff and some cheap-as$ RAM stuff from the F/A-18E/F (or even the F-16C+'s).

 

The whole program could literally be a cut and paste job involving elements of other weapons systems already in service. Take the F-16's engines, the Super Hornet's avionics, and presto, the gap between the F-15 and it's competitors widens again.

 

And then...Eurofighter? What's that?

[nscode]

jeah.... nice one :megalol:

[Pilotasso]

The Syrian AF wouldn't be a match even if they had EF2000 Su-27Sm/35/30 ;)

 

And even then the only aircraft that has technological parity with the F-15 /today/ is the EF2000, not any Su model. Russian manufacturing is having difficulty producing stable electronics right now, wether you like it or not ;)

 

I think thats a bit of an exageration there GG. The typhoon in my book has superceeded the F-15 in the AA arena. The british version has a much more comprehensive defensive systems than any F-15. Some F-15's have APG-63V2 AESA radars but they also have a much bigger RCS, so putting both planes in the same situation IMHO The typhoon enjoys the most advantages.

 

When the meteor enters service the F-15 wont have a stick to match.

If it ever gets to WVR the typhoon wins by then a much larger margin.

[GGTharos]

I think thats a bit of an exageration there GG. The typhoon in my book has superceeded the F-15 in the AA arena. The british version has a much more comprehensive defensive systems than any F-15. Some F-15's have APG-63V2 AESA radars but they also have a much bigger RCS, so putting both planes in the same situation IMHO The typhoon enjoys the most advantages.

 

When the meteor enters service the F-15 wont have a stick to match.

If it ever gets to WVR the typhoon wins by then a much larger margin.

 

Nooo exaggeration - I wasn't making a detailed comparison between the two, just a point, and not -quite- the one you made, but close ;)

[tflash]

The biggest advantage of the F-15C is its mission. It's pure A2A, whereas most of the competition will fly multirole.

 

Now that the Typhoon is still a pure A2A fighter, it seems a perfect match to the F-15C and would be a *very* welcome addition to Lockon, rather than little hunchback and its future friend the flying coffee mill.

 

Of course it won't take long before the Typhoon will be so overloaded with fueltanks, laserpods, guided A2G weapons etc. in the purest of NATO traditions to become a flying duck.

[Starlight]

The only reason why anything comes close to the F-15C right now is because no more money is being put into it, allowing its competitors to catch up. The fact that its 40 year old design has the potential to stay at the top of the A/A food chain speaks sh!tloads about the folks at McDonnell Douglas who built them back in the day.

 

As I read in an interview to one of the engineers that worked both on F-15 and F-16 designs, the Eagle was built large also in order to have room enough to house future enhancements. And it's a good aircraft, a damn good aircraft.

 

But I think that the airframes start to get older, and this can be a severe problem (it was one of the problems that also contributed to F-14 retirement... there were too few young airframes, and keeping just a few squadrons was prohibitively expensive).

When an airframe gets close to its lifetime limits, flying becomes dangerous and overhauls can be extremely expensive.

 

Anyway, even if the military budget of the US government has recently grown, it's more oriented to counter-terrorism and building brand-new things. This may not always be the right choice, but behind brand-new aircraft there are often political/economical/industrial/lobby interests, that often overcome the real needs of the military. That's a dejavou, it recently happened with Tomcat and SuperBug.

 

Anyway the Eagle has already won a battle for its future. If you read older aviation articles you find out that the F-22 was scheduled to _replace_ the Eagle in the late 90s, early 2000's. Now, closing to 2007, the F-22 just _integrates_ the Eagle in the USAF.

[Starlight]

Nooo exaggeration - I wasn't making a detailed comparison between the two, just a point, and not -quite- the one you made, but close ;)

 

The Typhoon is a new generation aircraft. And watching it at the airshows you can understand what that means. I've seen footage of F-15 airshows and you see it's powerful, that climbs and turns extremely well. But the Typhoon (I've seen it live) can do other things, that probably the F-15 is unable to do. That means maneuvres similar to Kobras, where, instead of _turning_ the aircraft actually points the nose... I saw a vertical loop that was closed in really few hundred feets. At top of the loop the Typhoon actually reversed like paper-planes, in a snap... just incredible!

 

And, the eurofighter has builit-in stealth features, with an impressive and brand-new avionics array, included HMS tech. I'm not the biggest EF fan (even though is a very good ac) but I think it could perform better than the F-15 in the AA arena.

Having said that, fighters don't fight alone, they depend on the entire war machine, and to integrated defense/attack systems (like AWACS) so it's often difficult to judge fighters for 1on1 fights like we try in Lomac... ;)

[AlexHunter]

That's only half the story. The next sortie, another F-15C pilot, Captain Pete Mitchell (a navy transfer credited with 3 MiG-28 kills flying F-14s) went up against a Su-37 Terminator, which the Russians flew in because they knew Captain Mitchell was such an amazing pilot.

 

In the first scenario, the Maj. Karabasov in the Su-37 started on the F-15's six. Capt. Mitchell hit the brakes and the -37 flew right by. Instant kill. In the next round, the Eagle started on the Terminator's six. Capt Mitchell turned his F-15 around to purposely put his opponent on his six, which baffled Maj. Karabasov, but then his plan became clear when the F-15 hit the brakes again forcing the Terminator to overshoot. Splash two.

 

Source: Warbirdfeces series - Boeing F-15 Eagle Volume 52

 

Not airplanes, but pilots, win managers by them, and also mind and will-power pilot. And most important - skill is needed in everything, tempering training :).

 

П.С. Both machines are good, all depends on a pilot ;)

[ViperEagle]

IIRC-

 

The Aim-120D series will have a very nice long range, close to the Meteor's. Remember tho, range/ramjet etc doesnt always make a perfect missile, tho I will say it's got alot of promise!

[nscode]

Russian manufacturing is having difficulty producing stable electronics right now, wether you like it or not

 

And you can't know that wether you like it or not, gg ;)