AFM for fighters

[VMFA117_Poko]

We all know it is hard to write an AFM for fighters. Above Mach 1 almost every force changes. I'm not good in physic thats why I'd like to start a discussion here about developing flight dynamics for supersonic. I don't know is it an old thread or not - if so let's start it all over again.

 

How about doing two types of AFM for every fighter? One for speeds below Mach 1 and other for speed above 1 Ma. I know its a little bit harder than that... But think about it as a half-measure - simplyfied supersonic AFM. Won't the changes be so noticeable while accelarating to sound barrier? Or maybe this AFMs should transfer fluently between themselves and it's impossible to devide it in two or even three separeta flight models? Maybe some script can connect these FMs?

 

Anyone good in physic and/or programming? What do You think? Maybe other ideas?

[RvETito]

The physical part is well known. The question is to implement correctly this physics into computer program and bring it to people's desktops. I have no clue about PC programming...

There are 3 major Mach ranges for any supersonic a/c- subsonic(bellow 0.9M, ED has already such model), transsonic(from 0.9M to 1.2M) and supersonic(above 1.2M). But I can't imagine compiling separetly each Mach range and then merge it all in one. Flow and a/c motion parameters change troughout the entire Altitide-Speed range and the diferential equations should be integrated in the entire range.

[Yo-Yo]

We all know it is hard to write an AFM for fighters. Above Mach 1 almost every force changes. I'm not good in physic thats why I'd like to start a discussion here about developing flight dynamics for supersonic. I don't know is it an old thread or not - if so let's start it all over again.

 

How about doing two types of AFM for every fighter? One for speeds below Mach 1 and other for speed above 1 Ma. I know its a little bit harder than that... But think about it as a half-measure - simplyfied supersonic AFM. Won't the changes be so noticeable while accelarating to sound barrier? Or maybe this AFMs should transfer fluently between themselves and it's impossible to devide it in two or even three separeta flight models? Maybe some script can connect this FMs?

 

Anyone good in physic? What do You think? Maybe other ideas?

 

 

AFM has all necessary to be adequate at any Mach number you want. As you can see Su-25 has distinctivess in stability and controlability at transsonic range. No problem at all to make trajectory parameters (acceleration, rate of turn) close to prototype.The main problem is to obtain proper date concerning flight charachteristics.

[VMFA117_Poko]

AFM has all necessary to be adequate at any Mach number you want. As you can see Su-25 has distinctivess in stability and controlability at transsonic range. No problem at all to make trajectory parameters (acceleration, rate of turn) close to prototype.The main problem is to obtain proper date concerning flight charachteristics.

Roger. So AFM is a sort of template/pattern and like in function - relates each of its inputs to exactly one output, right? Here You need to get a possibility to relate some of inputs to more than one outputs (at least three). Am I right?

[EscCtrl]

If you did use different AFMs for different speeds though you couldn't just switch on a switch to change the AFM as it were - the transition is not instantaneous. Its all to do with where the subsonic and supersonic speeds are on different parts of the aircraft in relation to each other.

 

The overall plane speed might be just below Mach 1 - this would mean below the wing the speed is sub sonic but above the wing the speed could be supersonic. This changes the flight a lot around the transonic stage and if accurately modeled chances are you would need plenty of different AFMs - a dynamic AFM of some sort would be better I guess.

 

Depends how accurate the modelling is I guess.

[Guest IguanaKing]

They could start by correcting the in-cockpit sound change at supersonic speed, which doesn't happen IRL. Start simple, then go from there. :D

[EscCtrl]

They could start by correcting the in-cockpit sound change at supersonic speed, which doesn't happen IRL. Start simple, then go from there. :D

 

Would there be any difference in sound? surely if the canopy is being buffeted by air particles traveling at supersonic speeds (in relation to the canopy) then the wind friction volume would increase at supersonic speeds?

[VMFA117_Poko]

The overall plane speed might be just below Mach 1 - this would mean below the wing the speed is sub sonic but above the wing the speed could be supersonic. This changes the flight a lot around the transonic stage and if accurately modeled chances are you would need plenty of different AFMs - a dynamic AFM of some sort would be better I guess.(...)

Dynamic AFM like in military simulators? So there is no way to simplify this effects but a little more complicate than already done?

[Guest IguanaKing]

Would there be any difference in sound? surely if the canopy is being buffeted by air particles traveling at supersonic speeds (in relation to the canopy) then the wind friction volume would increase at supersonic speeds?

 

I meant the change we currently hear in LOMAC. IRL, it suddenly doesn't change to a serene silence. I haven't heard anybody who has gone supersonic say that there is much change at all in the sound level in the pit. That being said however, we also have to realize that these guys are wearing HGUs and have earplugs in their ears on top of that. Along with turning their receiver volume up to overcome the ear plugs, they wouldn't be able to distinguish much in the way of small sound changes in the cockpit.

[33 309th_Hedgehog]

Nice dreams...

 

But honestly, what are they worth for?

ED is not even willing do realize "normal" AFM for all planes.

 

To recall: we have

- SFM (simple flight model) and simple instrument functions for all planes (except Su-25T)

- AFM and simple instrument functions for Su-25T

and we will (hopefully) have

- AFM with detailed instrument functions for Ka-50

 

What I know: this wil not be gonna changed.

Are there new infos around?

 

(Do I remember right that I have seen the same discussion at FOPS? That would be the right place in my opinion)

[Prophet]

Uh the Flight Model and cockpits arent related...

 

All the planes have detailed instruments now. The KA-50 will be 3D and clickable.

[theGozr]

But man the KA-50.... i wont be flying the KA much long... it's a copter you know.. please less tanks more plane goodies..

[VapoR]

To recall: we have

- SFM (simple flight model) and simple instrument functions for all planes (except Su-25T)

- AFM and simple instrument functions for Su-25T

and we will (hopefully) have

- AFM with detailed instrument functions for Ka-50

 

Ummmm yeah, I think you forgot the AFM for the Su-25 as well . . .

[GGTharos]

But man the KA-50.... i wont be flying the KA much long... it's a copter you know.. please less tanks more plane goodies..

 

Unless you -completely- refuse to fly it, and especially if you refuse to fly it in MP, with a -team- ... I guarantee you ... you WILL fly it :D

[Guest IguanaKing]

Oh...no doubt! Helicopters are GOBS more fun, especially in a combat environment. Being able to hide behind buildings and trees is going to kick a**! :D You also won't simply be able to light your burners and run when things get too hot, you'll have to use your head.

[VMFA117_Poko]

Unless you -completely- refuse to fly it, and especially if you refuse to fly it in MP, with a -team- ... I guarantee you ... you WILL fly it :D

Good to hear :).

[theGozr]

There is no doubt about that but it is a good start that is for sure.. it's copter they wont go very high and fast ;)

[GGTharos]

Oh...no doubt! Helicopters are GOBS more fun, especially in a combat environment. Being able to hide behind buildings and trees is going to kick a**! :D You also won't simply be able to light your burners and run when things get too hot, you'll have to use your head.

 

Not only that, but the datalink featured onboard is just -such- an awesome teamplay thing. You have your flight of helis, get near the target, park the flight, send one guy ahead to scout carefully and data links targets and threats to the rest of the team.

 

The leader can then assign targets and fields of fire to his wingmen; I don't recall the datalink operation very well, but its both very manual (you can to find/lock/classify/transmit) and very ... anyway. I'm rambling.

 

It's just an incrediblye team-oriented feature.

[GGTharos]

There is no doubt about that but it is a good start that is for sure.. it's copter they wont go very high and fast ;)

 

I agree - if they do, say hello to my fighter ... no wait, you won't ... yo uwill just explode :D

 

We will see if something is done about fighters - you never know, but as ED stated - Ka-50 is the main focus.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Not only that, but the datalink featured onboard is just -such- an awesome teamplay thing. You have your flight of helis, get near the target, park the flight, send one guy ahead to scout carefully and data links targets and threats to the rest of the team.

 

The leader can then assign targets and fields of fire to his wingmen; I don't recall the datalink operation very well, but its both very manual (you can to find/lock/classify/transmit) and very ... anyway. I'm rambling.

 

It's just an incrediblye team-oriented feature.

 

That definitely sounds cool. I think about that datalink feature every time we have a flight of OH-58s come through here. Its been kind of interesting lately because they have been armed, with not only the standard LAU-10, but an AGM-114 as well. Better stop that rambling, GG, you might end up giving away classified info about the product. ;) These guys want a flying challenge? Just wait until they have to deal with vortex rings, retreating blade stall, and mast bumping...along with just plain old buffeting from too much forward speed. Although, I imagine retreating blade stall will be minimal with coaxial mains.

[VapoR]

That definitely sounds cool. I think about that datalink feature every time we have a flight of OH-58s come through here. Its been kind of interesting lately because they have been armed, with not only the standard LAU-10, but an AGM-114 as well.

 

OH-58's RULE!! Used to love flying them in Longbow 2 . . .

[GGTharos]

The Ka-50 is fairly generous with VRS, but it can sneak up on you and slap you upside the head before you know it - usually when you're trying to maintain altitude and stopping fast.

[VMFA117_Poko]

(Do I remember right that I have seen the same discussion at FOPS? That would be the right place in my opinion)

Everywhere you can find a genius in some matters. Here I'm at home. I prefer to discuss with my old mates. BTW the topics always turn for other directions - see now :P? That's good 'cause subject is filled already.

[59th_LeFty]

Oh...no doubt! Helicopters are GOBS more fun, especially in a combat environment. Being able to hide behind buildings and trees is going to kick a**! :D You also won't simply be able to light your burners and run when things get too hot, you'll have to use your head.

 

I have a bad feeling about that - in these cases - our head will shout: "Eject, eject, eject!!!"